JerryvonKramer

If Nietzsche was a wrestler he'd probably be Mr. Perfect and definitely a heel. Marx and Engels could be like the Rock n Roll Express with Marx as Ricky Morton. Bentham and Mill would head up a faction called "The Utilitarians" Aristotles's finisher would be called "virtue ethics", a submission hold applied after he drops a big elbow called "Poetics"

I haven't actually watched it fully, but my research suggests that Georgia Championship Wrestling from about 1979 to 1983 looks like some of the best shit ever ever. I've loved everything I've watched from it so far. It's very angle-heavy and most non-squash matches end with run ins, but so many great promos and storylines. I only have comps, but am thinking about getting the whole season sets because it's just a great wrestling show.

I think Hayes came across as a star when surprisingly won the US title in 1989. He doesn't seem out of place wrestling Luger. I know he also had the big New Orleans gate vs. JYD in 1982. Personally, I think his in-ring abilities have always been talked down a bit too much. I've always enjoyed him as a worker. He's nowhere near as limited as his rep would have you believe. I think he's outstanding on the mic though and is great at controlling the crowd. He does a lot of the little character things well too. I know the Freebirds worked really well as a unit, but I'm wondering if there could have been a scenario where Hayes was like the singles star and Gordy and Roberts were the tag stars -- kinda like a 3-man version of the Horseman with Hayes as Flair and the other two as Arn and Tully.

Not listened yet but sounds disappointing. Ted CAN do a good shoot, he's definitely got one or two he's done that have been interesting, but he can also be one of the worst for completely phoning it in and retelling the same stuff we've heard a million times before. Seriously, if Jim Ross who must know so much about his career and the companies he worked for can't get a good interview out of him, then he must truly suck. I haven't listened to this podcast at all yet, and I've been thinking that surely Ross can't be as reviews have suggested, but this has perhaps underlined it. I will still listen eventually, but it's low priority.

The Cheesemobile's been warmed up and now it's almost melting! I opened my folder of discs to a random page and the finger of fate landed on this show: Prime Time Wrestling from May 30th, 1988. Our hosts are Gorilla Monsoon and Bobby Heenan. The Brain starts by calling Jim Duggan a "cheap shot artist". Heenan wants to say something about Duggan but Monsoon stops him because this is a family friendly show. Monsoon mentions that Heenan has had the Islanders doing menial labour around his house. 1. The Bolsheviks vs. The Young Stallions Fink with the intros here. Volkoff wants to sing the anthem. This looks like quite a big venue, if I had to guess it's the Boston Garden.Could even be MSG with a funky new carpet down. The central aisle is very MSG-like, but it looks too bright there. My guess is Boston Garden. Gorilla is on commentary with ... THE DUKE OF DORCHESTER PETE DOHERTY and .... Nick Bockwinkel!! Bockwinkel??! Really?! In 88? I thought he was still wrestling in AWA in 88. Doherty has a very gravelly voice. Monsoon: "Look at the cranium on Zukhov!" Doherty is ridiculous on commentary. Boris is able to get a back suplex on Powers after being worked over for 3-4 minutes. Roma's headlocks are very grindy, he wrenches them, can't decide if that's good or terrible, probably the latter. Bockwinkel accuses the Stallions of having too much emotion, which belies their lack of experience. Doherty sounds like a villain from a cheaply-made cartoon. Volkoff synches in a boring bearhug. Monsoon mentions that he saw Bock many times go to the eye, and take a shortcut. Bockwinkel simply says "touche". Sooner or later all four men are in. Gorilla: "the referee's lost control of this one". Got to love the fact that his calls were always the same. Bolshiviks are able to isolate Powers for the 3. Monsoon mentions that they are in Boston, so that clears that up. Back to the studio and Gorilla picks up on the fact that Heenan has changed his clothes. Monsoon says it would be interesting to see Demolition vs. The Bolsheviks. Moonsoon has the latest edition of WWF magazine. 2. Outlaw Ron Bass vs. Jose Luiz Rivera "They hanging from the rafters here, at the garden" - Gorilla He's with Lord Alfred. This is unmistakably MSG and Alfred confirms it. Gorilla calls it "the Mecca". Bass pounds on Rivera. He throws a chair in the ring. No DQ. This ref is old, but I don't recognise him. Rivera hits a dropkick. He's looking pretty stacked actually. Gorilla: "I try to be fair in my commentary, I don't like to pick sides. If a guy does something good I'll exploit that, if a guy does something bad I'll exploit that as well" -- you tell those smark bastards Gorilla! Rivera works Bass's arm. Gorilla mentions that Rivera is currently looking for a tag partner. Lord Al says that it's a very hotly contested division. In other words, good luck Jose. I think Bass has struggled with Rivera here, and as I write that Monsoon mentions that he's had more than he bargained for here. Monsoon: "They longer this match goes, the more it has to favour Rivera. I know what kind of condition he's in, and it's suspect what kind of condition the Outlaw is in" That's basically Monsoon saying that Rivera is fitter and more in shape than Bass. He says that Bass is likely going to run out of gas out there. You'd think Rivera is the one getting the push here. Rivera has been stuck in the ropes for an age now. Bass is doing some claw-like move on him. Monsoon mentions that the ref is Jack Lutz, who is "usually astute, but is looking a little lethargic out there to me". Lutz eh. Now Bass is tied up in the ropes. Rivera makes a comeback of sorts now. Crowd is DEAD. This match has been going on forever now. Bass hits his finisher, the Texas Gordbuster, "stick the fork in Rivera, this one is over". Back to the studio, Heenan mentions how Bass has grown a beard even though the Summer is coming. Monsoon accuses Heenan of saying that there's "something in the water" in Texas. Heenan denies it. Back from the break, Heenan calls Brutus Beefcake a "cheapshot artist". But NOW ... "Hello everyone, I'm Sean Mooney with this special report ..." Awesome! "The intense rivalry that currently exists between the reigning Intercontinental Champion, The Honkytonk Man and Brutus 'the Barber' Beefcake is common knowledge to those in the World Wrestling Federation. In the Barber's quest to strip the Honky Tonk Man of the title, he has ... sheared anyone who has stood in his way including Jimmy Hart and Dangeous Danny Davis. The only obstacle that remains is the Honkytonk Man himself. And recently, the Interncontinental Champion sent Beefcake a musical message ..." You've got to love that po-faced copy Mooney delivers with a straight face. Jimmy Hart is on his megaphone as Brutus is getting intereviewed and HTM sneaks up and smashes him on the back with a guitar. This is from Superstars, Jesse and Vince are on commentary. Interesting side note: the interview segments on the footage had Craig De George holding the mic, but the package was fronted by Mooney. Could there have been some cross-over between the two of them? Speaking of Craig De George, he's back now with an interview segment live in front of a Wrestle Challenge crowd with Hillbilly Jim. They are in Rochester, Minnesota. Hillbilly Jim claims that the local crowd are a bunch of Hillbillies themselves. De George says that Jim is going to be on some TV show. Back to the studio and Monsoon talks about how Hogan took Hillbilly Jim under his wing. Heenan has a George "the Animal" Steele ice cream bar. But it has feathers all over it. 3. Steve Lombardi vs. Jerry Allen Fuck me, talk about star power. This is from Maple Leaf Gardens, Toronto. Heenan: "Jerry Allen? Is his mother's name Gracie?" I can't believe I'm watching this match. Lombardi is very loud. Monsoon: "Do you know the name of this referee Brain? He seems to be new here." Heenan: "I don't know the names of any referees apart from Joey Marella, he's the only one that sticks in my mind" LOL, very funny. This match is acually quite stiff and physical so so far. Allen is quite aggressive. Heenan leaves the booth in search of Jack Tunney after a contract mistake. He seems to think he might be contracted to face his own clients in matches. A bit of business I didn't really get, but he's gone. Heenan's back, apparently Tunney is in a meeting. Heenan is worried because he's signed an "open contract" and he needs to clarify what this means. Bizarre goings on. Meanwhile, Lombardi has been sitting in a chinlock for far too long now. Heenan: "They asked Lombardi in high school what comes after a sentence. The answer is 'a period' right? He said 'parole'" Ha ha. Allen hits a suplex. Atomic drop. Some stick kicks and a reverse knife edge. Backdrop. Bodyslam. 2 count. Allen looks pretty good in that stretch. Hip toss. Put his head down. "When you are young and trying to get to the top, you make a lot of mistakes." Allen gets the 3, hooks the leg too. Not terrible that match. Allen looked alright. 4. The Islanders vs. Strike Force This is from MSG. Fink on the classic house mic. Bockwinkel is on commentary again with Monsoon. Gorilla says he can't believe that with a match of this magnitude, that the Brain is not around. Martel and Santana work over Haku in the shine. Bockwinkel accidentally calls The Islanders "the Samoans", Monsoon corrects him. Martel hits a side suplex, Tama tags in. The Islanders change the momentum with some cheap chokes. But they don't stay on top long. Satana comes in fired up. Everyone in now. Haku sneaks a headbutt on Tito. Action goes outside. This has been structurally unorthodox so far. Match has followed no real formula. Islanders go to work on Tito's leg now. He injured his knee on that fall to the outside. Haku hits some cool elbow drops on the leg and now pulls on it. Tamu continues the punishment on the leg. This is very focused work from The Islanders, they don't need Heenan there, he has them well prepped! Double headbutt by the Islanders gets the first fall. Oh, so this is 2 out of 3 falls. We go back to the studio for a break. Monsoon criticises Heenan's mangerial acumen. Santana is injured from that first fall. Bockwinkel says that this is basically a number 1 contender's match, but from Monsoon's response it seems like he made that up on the spot. "They are fighting for the right", says Monsoon. Islanders go right back to the leg. Tito is forced to go to the eyes. Haku gets in a cheap shot to the thigh from the outside. 2nd fall very clumsy as Martel trips Tama and lets Tito get a flash pin. Only the ref, Jack Lutz, is out of position and takes AN AGE to count three. Tama is pinned for about 30 seconds before he gets there. Disappointing 2nd fall, but this finish holds some promise. Islanders go right back to Tito's leg. Monsoon: "No one ever accused The Islanders of being too intelligent, as they are now working on Santana's right leg" Christ, Gorilla, you don't let up for a second do you! Double noggin knocker now allows Tito to make the hot tag to Martel. Crowd is WILD for him. Big back drop. House of fire here. High crossbody. Gets 2 on Tama, Haku saves. Tama accidentally knees Haku, Martel rolls him up for 3. Hmmm, this is about a ***, but have to say it's a little disappointing. Told a decent story, but would want more action from both teams. Islanders did well to stay on Tito's leg, but I wanted to see more from these two teams. 5. Don Muraco vs. Jim Neidhart This is from MSG, Roger Kent and Lord Alfred on commentary. Billy Graham is managing Muraco here. Anvil seems fatter here than he was in 1991. Kent: "There's a classic wrestler stance, looks like it came out of Greek mythology doesn't it. Now who is going to do what with which to whom?" WTF is Kent! Ha ha ha. Neidhart is looking PARTICULARLY fat here, bigger than he usually looks. I think it might be because he's not in the overalls. Kent calls a punch an "Indian punch". He's a very wordy commentary. "Both men are absolutely prespiring profusely". Indeed. Muraco hits a dropkick. VERY sloppy attempt at a sunset flip by Muraco, Neidhart kinda flops down on him and gets a messy pin. Well that SUCKED. What was that? Got to be a big upset that too. Strange match and result. Billy Graham looks befuddled. Monsoon tells us that The Million Dollar Man, Ted DiBiase, has been unhappy of late. Heenan: "He should be unhappy, the way he was jobbed" Monsoon: "Jobbed? How was he jobbed?" Heenan goes through the whole scenario with Ted buying the belt etc. It's Craig De George again. Ted is in his spangly white goldy jacket, a rare outing for that one -- the jacket around this time is usually the pale green or the silvery one, this white gold number is very seldom seen. I'm EXCITED, which shows how sad I am really. Virgil is there too. DiBiase tells De George to SHUT UP. DiBiase: "I will do whatever I have to do, to intimidate you, Randy Savage. And if that means grabbing hold of Elizabeth, I'll DO IT! The fact that she's a woman means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to me. She's a manager in a man's profession! And if she can't take the heat, then she should get out of the kitchen! And as far as you go Macho Man, you have now personally tasted the wealth of the Million Dollar Man, and CHOKED on it. Choked on it Savage! They had to fill the ring with wrestlers and physically pull me off of you! But the next time you turn around Savage, it's not going to be a hundred dollar bill I stick down your throat, it's going to be this right here [his fist]. And when I do, Savage, when I do you'll be finished. You won't be Macho, you won't have the glory and you won't have the money and you won't have Elizabeth because she's no different than any other woman here in this building. When the money's gone, when the glory's gone, then the woman's gone. And I've never lost a woman, brother, because I've always got what they want! Who knows, maybe Elizabeth will be ... The Million Dollar Woman, ha ha ha ha ha" Wow, that was one of the best promos of Ted's career, and I've never seen it before now. Definitely highlight of this episode of PTW. Terrific heel promo, and more serious and angry than many of his Million Dollar Man promos. Lord Alfred Hayes now with an update. There's an article in the latest WWF magazine by Ken Patera criticising Dino Bravo. And so, of course, the two of them had a tug of war match! Fucking hell, a tug of war??! Bravo's face during this segment is ridiculous as he's pulling on the rope. Ken Patera looks MUCH more 70s here than he did in 1980. How is that possible? Frenchy Martin gets involved, and of course Bravo just beats Patera down and the contest is thrown out. Bravo chokes out Ken with the rope who sells it like he's being killed. Can't help but think that Martin must be hot in that coat. Monsoon says Bravo has prooved nothing to him. Heenan says that Monsoon is very biased. 6. Harley Race vs. Jim Duggan I notice that Harley is being referred to almost exclusively as "The King" here. By Heenan and Monsoon and in the captions on screen. I never noticed that before. They haven't called him Race even once yet. Race bumps around for Duggan to start. But turns it around with a headbutt. Duggan is doing a lot of HOOOOOOOs and is being generally annoying. Monsoon says that he's heard through the grapevine that Heenan is going to put the tights back on again and step back into the ring. They have been pushing this angle of Heenan being a wrestler again, interesting, did it go anywhere I wonder? Pretty much all Duggan so far this match. They mentioned earlier that Duggan had hit Andre with the 2x4 recently and Monsoon says that he knows Heenan's plan: to send The King out there to maim Hacksaw so he can't get to Andre again. It's really weird how Race is EXCLUSIVELY "the King" here. I've never noticed that before, could just be this show. Race hits a piledriver, doesn't hit it properly as Monsoon points out. Knee drop. Diving headbutt, misses! Punches by Duggan. Atomic drop. Race does his rope teetering spot. Duggan pushes him off and he lands on his head! As Heenan mentions, he could have broken his neck. Race has worked this completely from underneath so far. Crashes to the outside after a Duggan clothesline. Duggan smashes Race's head into the bell. Back inside, knee drop by Duggan. 2 count. Finally! Monsoon: Out the backdoor comes Race. Heenan: The King! Not just "Race", he's not a commoner. Clearly there's been some directive from Vince just to call him "The King". Duggan manages to get a pin.This was virtually a squash. Not a good match. Duggan chases the ref off with his plank of wood. So ... did Duggan become "Hacksaw King Duggan" after that match? I don't think so, I think Race remained the King until the Haku match at Royal Rumble 89. OR did Haku win the "Kingship" from Duggan? ---------- Prime time had a lot less nonsense in 1988 than in 1991. This was a much more wrestling-orientated show with the studio spots between Heenan and Gorilla kept to a bare minimum. They also showed a lot less content from Superstars and Challenge, and much more matches from the house shows that I'm guessing were exclusive to PTW. The DiBiase promo is definitely worth seeing, one of his most heated ever. I'm also interested in whether this was right around the time Craig De George was replaced by Sean Mooney, or whether the two of them had a month or so where they were colleagues. It was strange to see Mooney introduce that segment in which De George was the one conducting the interviews. My guess is that Craig was on the old footage but had already left. I've defended Gorilla Monsoon a lot before now, but on this show he was really at his worst on commentary. Just so critical of every single worker. I'm trying to decide if that consistency is a good thing, in maintaining the idea of wrestling as a legit sport, with him as a proper sports broadcaster calling it like an old-timer, or whether it's just him being a dick and burying the talent. Hmmmm.

Could Michael Hayes have been a bigger singles star?

I've not listened to a single Ross Report yet, but I might have to listen to the Ted DiBiase interview because you just know they spent 2 hours talking about Mid South! EDIT: Oh, wrong thread.

Jim Ross was lead announcer for a long time though and his accent is thicker than biscuits and gravy.

http://placetobenation.com/titans-of-wrestling-28-wwf-at-philadelphia-spectrum-february-14th-1981 Parv, Kelly and Johnny DRAG Pete to the Philadephia Spectrum in 1981 for a 10-match extravaganza! On the docket tonight: Bulldog Brower vs Angelo Gomez Larry Sharpe vs Steve King The Great Yatsu vs Frank Savage Hulk Hogan vs Dominic Denucci Pedro Morales vs Stan Hansen Killer Khan vs Rick McGraw Sgt. Slaughter vs Bob Backlund The Hangman vs Johnny Rodz SD Jones vs Baron Mikel Scicluna Tony Garea & Rick Martel vs Moondogs (Texas Death match) Also on tonight's show: - Pete's protest: the lead analyst refuses to watch half of the card - Parv introduces the jobber offense count - Kelly gives Frank Savage a mini-bio - Johnny tests out a new theorum: if Bruno = Hogan and Bob = Bret, then Pedro = Warrior? - Plus: randomly the Titans pick their MVP for Wrestlemania 2 and The Kayfabe Memories Mystery Files of SD Jones The PWO-PTBN Podcast Network features great shows you can find right here at Place to Be Nation. By subscribing on iTunes or SoundCloud, you’ll have access to new episodes, bonus content, as well as a complete archive of: Where the Big Boys Play, Titans of Wrestling, Pro-Wrestling Super-Show, Good Will Wrestling, and Wrestling With the Past.

I don't really understand that argument. So what, all art should just be mainstream crowd-pleasing stuff? I also don't understand why you have to reduce depth to what you call "messages", surely the best stuff isn't didactic at all and if I understand it (not that I'm a big art guy), most modern art is all about the viewer finding whatever they want to in a piece. I think when you say things like "rightfully shunned by the general populace" you're on a slippery slope. Is Ingmar Bergman "rightfully shunned" or is it that a lot of people can't be bothered to sit through grim Swedish films with subtitles when the latest Marvel film is out? So Bergman is therefore worthless? You're willing to sign off on that?

I still think they should have kept the WCW banner going and slow burned it. Since they did the brand split anyway, why not keep WCW? Surely that is a stronger brand that "WWE Blue" or whatever the fuck they ended up with. Keep it going, but move Nitro or RAW to another day so they are no longer head to head. Build WCW back up. Make it a REAL deal for WCW wrestlers to show up on WWF TV and vice versa.

I think the two main things that held Taylor back were: 1. his falling out with Dusty and 2. the fact he just wasn't that good. I'll never understand why Mike Rotunda gets as much hate as he does around here when guys like Taylor are sold as being underrated. What's Taylor got over Rotunda? (just as an example)

David Schultz too?

Does he stop and consider the various ways in which we might have moved beyond those positions now? Could this be much more of a cliche? Why is it always Nietzsche with these think-they-know-it-all-types anyway?

The Cheese-mobile is back in action, but we're taking a break from TNT and jumping forward like Quantum Leaping Lanny to November 11th 1991 for Prime Time Wrestling! And what is the significance of this date? Well, it's the first edition of PTW that featured the roundtable format. What better way to get back into the cheese! Vince with the classic shouty intro. Love that. Vince is our presenter but he's struggling to be heard over the arguing. To our left, we have Roddy Piper and Gorilla Monsoon, and to our right, it's Bobby Heenan and Mr. Perfect. It's the eve of the Survivor Series and Vince says that there are many important issues to discuss! They need to discuss the injury to Sid Justice. Roddy Piper is more or less pro Sid here and just says that the WWF is the toughest of the tough and that he's got hurt. Piper wants him to wrestle with the cast on. Heenan thinks he's just scared of Jake the Snake. Sid gets a promo now in the cast. He's been injured by Jake Roberts. Sid demands that Jack Tunney needs to reinstate Randy Savage because it's the "just" thing to do. Get it, Sid JUSTICE. Monsoon thinks Tunney needs to reinstate him too and that he needs to get his finger out to do it. This opening segment was awful. People talking all over the place and not in a good way. 1. Big Bully Buswick (w/ Harvey Whippleman) vs. Jim Duggan Over to SEAN MOONEY now and Lord Alfred Hayes now for this all-star match up. Mooney and Hayes mainly discuss what will happen if Jim Neidhart is injured for the Survivor Series and call for Jack Tunney to make a decision. A lot of pressure on Tunney this week! This is an exceptionally poor match. Duggan wins after a 3-point stance but this has got to be one of the worst televised matches of 1991. In the -** region. 2. The Berzerker vs. Eric Freedom Freedom is a CLASSIC looking early 90s jobber. One for the Kelly files. I can't help but think watching this demolition of Freedom by The Berzerker that this dude should have headlined Wrestlemania! He keeps going over to Mr. Fuji. Some nice slams and Ernie Ladd leg drops. He throws Freedom out of the ring for a count out win. Ha ha. Side note: this is very late for Fuji to be in the hat with the cane, it's not long before he would transition to the Yokozuna version. Gene Okerlund has been at the WBF!! Bodybuilders, hmmm. More news: Sid is out of the Survivor Series. Bret Hart and The Mountie have issues. The Mountie calls Bret a coward. Bret says he could never give a title shot to a jailbird and The Mountie ZAPS him. Studio promo by Jimmy Hart and The Mountie now. "You might say I shocked you into a title match". 3. Ric Flair vs. Jim Neidhart Neidhart in the awful Owen Hart "High Energy" gear. Flair is wearing the actual NWA title and it isn't digitised out. Savage, Piper and Vince are on commentary. Piper calls Vince a "jerk" after he claims he's not paying attention to the action.This match was from Superstars. Neidhart misses a big leg and Flair goes to work on the knee. Piper: "what am I? Chuck D?" Piper is hot with Vince tonight because he's insinuating that Piper can't beat Flair. Meanwhile, Flair is destroying Neidhart's leg. Figure-four. And that's it. Wow, Neidhart really in JTTS mode here. Post-match, Flair keeps working on the leg. Piper has been shouting for about 5 minutes straight now. Commentary is a real shit show with him and Savage AND Vince all talking. Flair puts on the figure-four AGAIN. He's using the rope for leverage, trying to break his leg. Officials come out to break it up. Savage says that he doesn't recognise that belt. Piper is just ranting and raving. And now a video package from Sgt. Slaughter outside the Statue of Liberty, I can't believe he turned his back on Iraq. Jim Neidart is being escorted back to the locker room by officials and The Beverley Brothers are on their way to their match ... they just turn around and DECK Neidhart. Ha ha ha, such completely random heel dickery. 4. Mark Wilson and Dan Robbins vs. The Beverley Brothers These are the sorts of jobbers who really need Gary Michael Capetta to draw out their complete shitness. Savage: "Look what's going around in the WWF, and I can't get reinstated, unbelievable!" - ha ha good point Randy. Tunney should suspend the Beverleys! Piper and Savage keep talking over each other, might be the most annoying commentary team of all time. Piper makes a quip about Liz that goes down very badly with the Macho Man. The match is already over. ---- We're back to the studio and the debate is in full flow. Monsoon says it's highly unlikely that the figure-four would work on "the likes of the Hulkster". Heenan comes back: "it worked on the Anvil!" Vince asks Piper if he's ever lost by submission. Another awful segment. Too much talking over each other in general on PWT so far. Vince shills a hotline number to talk to The Hulk. $1.99 a minute! 5. Rock Werner vs. Repo Man Mike McGurik with the intros, Mooney and Hayes on commentary. They don't make wrestling like this anymore. Mooney openly starts laughing at the idea of Werner matching up with Repo Man. Sean doesn't like the truck tires on Repo Man's tights. Mooney and Hayes debate what he uses the rope for. Mooney thinks that he uses it to tow away repo'd vehicles, Hayes suggests he just breaks into them and drives them away. Mooney says, well maybe he uses the rope if the engine can't start. LOL that actual exchange took place on national TV. The match is already over. Werner submitted to a basic leglock. Repoman ties him up to the ropes. Back to the studio. Vince asks Perfect if his payments are up to speed. Perfect: "I don't know where this Repo guy came from but he looks like his Range Rover got run over by a semi" Vince talks about training techniques and nutrition. Says Heenan as a manager must have knowledge of this. Soon, the WBF champion Gary Strydom will be here to tell us about it. Heenan claims that Strydom has no calfs. Ha ha ha. Strydom is doing some weight training. Tito Santana has just got back from Mexico where in becoming El Matador he got his "mind right", but now he wants to get his body right and who better to turn to than Gary Strydom! Stydom gets Tito to do some weights. Pump! Pump! Pump! This is pretty homoerotic. "What a difference when you do it right". What? That was it? That was the special training by WBF champ? Strydom suggests that Tito could show him a move or to one day too. Pathetic hype segment for the WBF. Sid Justice is out of the Survivor Series, so it might be 4 vs 3. Jake, The Natural Distasters and IRS are here. Jake does the talking. Jake: "What's the two things you can always count on?" IRS: "Death and taxes" Best bit of this entire episode so far. Gene Okerlund in very forceful tones makes an appeal to Jack Tunney to REINSTATE Randy Savage. Do it now! It makes sense! He can sub for Sid, you see. Makes it a fair fight. What about the gravest challenge? Hulk Hogan cuts a promo in front of a metal bolted backdrop. Hogan mentions his title win in 1984. Says he's going to dig a 6-foot hole just for Taker. Paul Bearer cuts a promo with Taker there looking grim, he has his hat down over his eyes. Taker talks: "Hulk, the future is at hand, it's at the hand of the Undertaker. Prepare to meet your maker" Excellent pair of promos there. Back to Mean Gene, previewing Flair's team against Piper's team. Promos from Piper and co now. Virgil: "People of Detroit, I am not a thief, I'm a very honest gentleman!" Bret: "I'm just going to say one thing: when I get my hands on The Mountie at the Survivor Series, he's going to be the one that'll be in for a shock!" oooooh, you tell him Bret! Bulldog: Warlord! You wanna slap that full nelson on this big shoulders in two weeks time ... well just you try it" -- least menacing promo ever! And Piper rants and raves about Flair. He can't control himself. Flair's team is so swank, but we don't get a promo from them. Oklerund goes through the rest of the card, which changed massively of course in the two weeks left. Col Mustafa's team had THREE changes. ------- The discussion conintues at the roundtable. This is getting tiresome. A lot of talk of Jack Tunney's decisions now. He has a lot to make. Piper has just been awful so far on this show. He's doing my head in. 6. The Legion of Doom vs. The Nasty Boys Titles on the line here. Jimmy Hart is managing the Nasties. Hayes claims that The Nasties are "great tacticians in the ring". Hmmm. LoD dominate until Hawk blows his shoulder and Knobs uses a chair on him. They double team him outside. Mooney: "Hawk is one massive superstar, but no man can take that amount of abuse" Some great Mooney unnaturalness there. No one in the world would say that sentence but him. Hayes speculate that this is part of a preconceived plan by LoD, that Hawk will take this beating in order to draw energy from both Nasties and Animal is kept fresh. Is Lord Al actually trying to deconstruct the concept of Face in Peril on air? lol Anyway, he rubbishes those suggestions himself when the Nasties cut off a tag to Animal. "No, he's just trapped". Animal always seems to work as the hot tag in WWF. Always. Knobs uses the helmet, but Hawk gets it and clears the ring. LoD win by DQ. Nothing spectacular, but I think the Nasties kept this interesting-ish. More talk in the studio now. They want Jack Tunney to step up now. Heenan: "All you got to do is grease his palm. That's the way you do business with Tunney" *pointing at Vince* "You been doing business with him for years. So have you [Gorilla]. So have you, so have you" AWESOME semi-shoot moment. Monsoon lambasts Heenan for being cheap now: "you never went into your pocket for anything!" More talk of Savage being reinstated now. They've been discussing this for 58 fucking minutes now!!! Vince shills the hotline with Savage and Liz, you can hear how he feels about it himself. 7. The Undertaker vs. Texas Tornado Wow, this is quite a big match up for PWT. Taker's intro is awesome, kids in the crowd clearly in awe of him, clearly. Vince must have seen the potential even at this point. Gorilla and Heenan are on commentary here. I like Prime-Time partly because you basically get to see the all the shows in one package. "He's colder than a mother-in-law's kiss, colder than a pawnbroker's heart" "WILL YOU STOP" Classic. Monsoon says he can always smell formaldehyde around him, a preservative. I think Monsoon just wanted to let us know he knows the word "formaldehyde". Taker makes very short work of the Tornado with a tombstone. The former IC champ on the way out here clearly. Back to the roundtable. Monsoon is angry at Heenan. Perfect says that Taker will end Hulkamania. Heenan references Taker's win over The Texas Tornado, which is no mean feart. "I mean the guy's [Tornado's] mind is like silly putty, we all know that, he's got one white sock on and one brown sock and thinks he has a pair just like em at home!" Heenan laying it in tonight! Monsoon says that he thinks, very gravely, that this Sunday could we the last night we see Hogan as champion. Piper is more optimistic. I think that's really neat: two face voices, one has doubts over Hogan to win, the other confident. I like the idea of two fans sitting at home having the same concerns. Kayfabe is the greatest thing ever. It's time for The Funeral Parlour. Bearer's special guest is ... Macho Man Randy Savage!! Crowd is pretty pumped for him. Mooney and Hayes go on and on about the idea of him being reinstated and that Jack Tunney needs to make a decision. Savage wants to repay Sid for a favour he did for him. Savage wants to even up the odds to lead LoD and the Bossman against Jake and the rest of the Snake Pit! But he has one big problem: President Jack Tunney! Come on Tunney, every single person wants him back. What are you playing at? Savage says he's begging Tunney right now. "I've been a Survivor all my life, and not being at the Survivor Series, that's not living ... that's a living hell!" I can't help but wonder what the hell happened with this angle. They've spent 70 minutes shilling this now and I know that match ends up being 3 vs 3. Back to the studio and Vince asks "what happened to the Doctor of Stlye?" we're about to find out ... We get a clip of Warlord vs. Bulldog and Davey Boy drags in the Slickster. Running Powerslam on Slick!! Lord Al: "We'll never see The Slickster again if he does this!" Warlord carries a DEAD Slick out. I always did wonder what happened to Slick in 91. Vince says that The Slickster has seen the light, allegedly, and is going to become an evangelical preacher. Wow, I never know that was announced in 1991. Piper wonders about whether his heart is in the right place. Heenan: "it doesn't matter if his heart is in the right place, it matters if the collection plate is". Monsoon says he's been given a license to steal. Perfect CLEARLY doesn't give a shit about this and just chews some gum. Vince wants to give Slick a fair hearing and says that people can change. 8. The British Bulldog vs. IRS This is another PPV calibre match on TV here in 1991. Big match! I can't imagine anyone is going over clean here. This is from an MSG house show, I can tell: Finkel is there, pitch black backdrop, aisle down the middle. Unmistakable. IRS: Tax cheating seems to be a way of life in New York! But I want you people to remember this: sooner or later you're going to get caught! And when you do get caught IRS is going to make you pay!" Monsoon to Heenan: And you got caught before I understand. Ha ha. Lord Alfred is there too. Bulldog comes out to no music. It's strange how at home I feel watcing an MSG match. Monsoon wonders why Bulldog doesn't grab Irwin's suspenders or his tie. This has been all Davey Boy so far. Standing dropkick, Irwin bails. Wow, a commercial for a GAME GENIE. Bill and Ted rip offs! I never got a Game Genie, cheating is for losers. Now a commercial for a Big Mac ... Finest Designer Fabrics in Nashville! by Betty Jan! ... Santa is coming to Hendersville, A.C.E. hardware by helicopter ... We're back at the studio. Vince shills All American hosted by Mean Gene with Randy Savage. We come back and Irwin is on top now. He hits ... the write off cheque! Although no one ever calls it that, it's a clohesline. Bulldog kicks out. Irwin takes a big bump to the outside. This has been quite a long match. Monsoon mentions that this is a 20-minute time limit match and there's only 3 minutes remaining. I think that tells us what is going to happen here. Irwin counters the running powerbomb for a 2-count. High back bodydrop, gets 2. Heenan starts talking this up as a tremendous match. Irwin finds some rope under the ring. Sneaks it into his pocket. Front facelock. Irwin chokes Bulldog with the rope. Monsoon claims the ref sees it and should have called a DQ. Bulldog finds another piece of rope. Both guys out here. Inside cradle!! No, time limit draw!! Hmmm, about a **1/2, a bit too meandering, the guys struggled to fill the time. More roundtable now, and more talking over each other. Vince returns us to Taker vs. Hogan discussion, The Gravest Challenge. 9. The Rockers vs. Barry Horrowitz and Marty Miller [????] Quick squash but ... some tension between Shawn and Jannetty here, they are TEASING the eventual heel turn already. Nice long-term booking. Hmmmm, this was a pretty shitty episode of Prime Time, Piper was AWFUL in every role. Bad on the panel, bad on commentary, bad in the promo.

fxnj, with respect, please don't quite the icycalm essay at me again. Especially not on a day where I've marked 25 undergraduate essays on early modern revenge tragedies. Suffice it to say that I think it's a very reductive take on the genre which might have been written in the 1930s or even earler. In fact, it was, by writers far more learned and insightful than he. I'd point you to A.C. Bradley's Shakespearean Tragedy from 1904, or even Edward Dowden on King Lear in 1875. The point being, that this area is more complex than you are giving it credit for. If, as you say, video gaming is potentially the most exalted art form, then do you really expect to find all the answers in a half-baked blog? All it says to me is that video game criticism still has a long long way to come.

Completely disagree with that fxnj. Those games that are trying to be arty are meant to be emotional experiences, or to explore particular social issues, or whatever. We do not say this about films. Films have the power to be thought provoking, moving, and so on, without necessarily being "entertaining". I am sure everyone here can name a film that they value and think is great that isn't necessarily "enjoyable" or an easy watch. Being entertained and "fun" are not the only metrics when judging art. To say games as a medium always have to be is to reduce them always to having to be shallow. And they don't always have to be shallow. Wrestling too can get to other places and other emotions. I've frequently talked about Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanchard "I Quit" as a match that gets at emotions and truths that are "beyond" the standard wrestling match. Call me a pretentious if you want, I think the match is a meditation on manhood. It asks real questions about what it means to be a man. Tully's humiliation is that match is not "enjoyable" to watch, sometimes it is uncomfortable. But this is precisely what makes it great. I reject this idea that some forms are inherently shallow and others are inherently "deep". Not true. Every medium has the potential to be deep, including gaming and wrestling.

When was that Pete? I haven't watched much Watts past 1985.

Taylor's best runs were in Mid-South and Texas as a babyface before the Red Rooster stuff. Although I think he's pretty bland whatever the run. In WCW I think his best moment is probably with the York Foundation just after he replaced Mike Rotunda in more or less the same role. "Taylor Made Man" is low rent though.

Small aside, but remember when they had all the coffins at WM? Of all Taker's defeated foes? Did anyone else think .... "hmmmm, taking that DQ win over Giant Gonzalez is a bit rich" I mean, Taker left that Mania on a stretcher and Gonzalez was relatively unscathed. The coffin is a bit much.

I'd like to point out that Shakespeare was a commercial artist. As was Michaelangelo. As were The Beatles. But I basically agree with stomperspc, there is no real relationship between commercial performance and artistic merit. On a side note, historically there does seem to be a correlation between commerical booms and artistic booms. In times of prosperity, there tends to be a greater number of "great artists" -- but this is very macro-economic. i.e. Had Shakespeare been around in 600AD, he'd probably have spent his life planting turnips.The time-scales involved in wrestling history are too small for those big macroecnomic historical shifts to make themselves felt.

Is it wrong that I thought that Eric Bischoff was the most attractive person in that pic? Very good looking man he was.

I'd really like to see a breakdown of why WCW failed to draw, especially under Frey.

So the Florida stuff is on tape?