JerryvonKramer

When I was watching Breaking Bad, I kept flagging up face turns and heel turns. Nowm don't get me wrong, I think Breaking Bad is one of the best shows ever made, but once you saw it you couldn't unsee it. "Oh, Hank's working heel this season".

I think GCW needed a few more big stars. Who would they have built the national push around? Piper? Think you'd need a few of the big name AWA guys -- someone like Ventura, perhaps -- to make a real fist of it.

Everyone needs to watch Andre and Ted DiBiase vs. Baron Scicluna and Jerry Valiant. One of the best matches from 1979, and it marks the first time the Mega Bucks teamed up.

Images from Nov-Dec 82 GCW: Ivan and some jobbers restrain Buzz Sawyer from attacking Bruce "Butch" Reed. One of many Sawyer promos from "behind the cage" JJ Dillon taunts Sonny King via video link. Ivan Koloff ... he wants that National title! "American hock" The champ drops in for a work out. WHAT'S IN THE BOX? Hansen in his spiffy cowboy shirt. Images from 72-4 CWF: Bearcat Wright lays in a shot on Johnny Valentine Solie can barely conceal his delight at talking to Mr. Glenn Dobbs. The legendary Danny Hodge signs an autograph. Dusty's face is the crimson mask as Paul Jones relentlessly pounds on him Spinning toehold! Buddy Colt remonstrates with his manager Dandy Jack

Heading to Florida now and it's some time in 1973 ... 1. Dory Funk Jr. vs. Jerry Brisco Bill Watts is at ringside, as is Jack Brisco. This is a submissions match, pinfalls don't count. Solie is on commentary naturally. Abdominal stretch by Dory. Vertical suplay by Dory. Kneedrop. He's controlling this. Misses an elbow. Dory works on Brisco's knee. Spinning toehold. Dory uses elbows on the leg. His knee looks like it might blow out according to Solie. Dory has this spinning toehold synched in tight. Awesome call by Solie here: "you can see his mouth in a silent scream". Wow. Jack Brisco can't take any more and comes in. DQ! Dory and Jack start brawling now. Jack Brisco is the world champ at this point. Dory with the spinning toehold on Jack now. Bill Watts with a massive TASH comes in now. He has a match with the world champ tonight and with Brisco's knee out, Watts wants the match NOW! Ha ha, awesome. The Mongolian Stomper is here with Gary Hart and Bob Roop. And they PEARL HARBOUR the cowboy! Watts is the Flordia heavyweaight champ at this point. Roop, Hart and the Stomper now shake hands for putting Watts out of action for the night ... he won't be getting his world title shot. This was quite entertaining, about a *** from what we see for the match. Dory's work on the leg is extremely focused. Whole segment is more than that. I'm confused about heel / face dynamics here. Solie said that Watts thinks he's "an island unto himself". He seemed heelish and allied with Dory, but Jack Brisco interfered in the match and then Watts got nailed by all those heels, so ... is EVERYONE a heel / tweener? Wasn't easy to make out any obvious babyfaces. 2. Raul Mata and Jack Brisco vs. Bobby Shane and Bearcat Wright No commentary on this. Raul Mata? Raul FAT-ter more like. Bearcat Wright is a tall bald black guy who looks like he's wearing a diaper. Bobby Shane is a little weasel. Mata works over Bearcat to start, who stooges for him until Mata misses a charge. Shane comes in, he is vaguely Bobby-Heenan-like. Brisco looks like a million dollars when he comes in. He's so smooth. Bearcat Wright is so gangly and awkward looking, but he is selling his ass off for these guys. This match has some clipping. Heels are extremely weak here, they can't get anything going and are being dominated. Shane can't weigh more than about 150lbs. He manages to get the figure-four on Mata though but Brisco comes in to interrupt it. Some terrific OLD MEN in the crowd. I love an old man in the crowd, or an old woman for that matter. Shane goes for the figure-four again. Mata comes back. Mata is a bit Pedro Morales-ish only fatter and with less fire. Slugfest between him and the Bearcat now. These aren't very good workers it has to be said. Shane gets Mata in a chinlock and ... WHAT THE FUCK? He submitted? Oh god, lameness. Brisco charges the ring and gets caught in the ropes. Shane and Wright have won the Florida Tag Titles! Apparently Wright would retire in 1974 and had an 8-0 record as a pro boxer in the 1950s. This match happened on March 9th, 1972. Brisco comes back to try to stop a heel beatdown. Shane does a Flair-style strut, he's really weaselly, quite an effective chickenshit-style heel. 3. Jack Brisco vs. Buddy Colt JIP, Solie on commentary. Colt has blonde hair, looks like he goes to the same barber as Harley Race. Colt uses the ringpost to smash Brisco's arm on the ring post. The ref declares Brisco the winner. Why? DQ for using the post? 4. Paul Jones vs. Tim Woods Brisco had an injured arm so Woods subbed in. Woods not working as Mr. Wrestling here, no mask or anything. I'm assuming it's the same guy. Solie reminds us that "karate is legal". The ref is quite a fat chap. Jones uses an "oriental claw". Some warping and clipping on the tape here. It's been all Jones so far. Ref bump as Jones Irish whips Woods into him. Then Jones hits the ref by accident as Woods jumps. Ref is out. Jones has Woods down for 3 but ref can't see it. Jones goes over to get the ref, Woods recovers, small package. Ref is still out! Another guy comes in to count to three. Sloppy finish. 5. Jones vs. Woods [again?] Unlisted match now with no commentary featuring two guys and I'm not sure who they are. One of them looks like it might be a young Wahoo, but it's probably Paul Jones -- looks a bit fat to be Jones, but I think it is him. There's a masked man on the outside who keeps interfering. I am guessing that this is Woods vs. Jones again and this is the July 31st 1973 title swich, but that's a guess and none of the listings seem to include this one. A belt is won by a chap in white tights. That has to be Tim Woods. 6. Johnny Valentine vs. Bearcat Wright Another look at Bearcat now against a legend. No commentary again. Bearcat gets Valentine in a front face lock. Slugfest breaks out now. Valentine gets the better of it. Bearcat takes a tumble to the outside. He slugs his way back in, still got those boxing punches. Valentine comes back with clubbing blows, hammers you might say. Stomps from Valentine now. Big elbow to the back of Wright's head. Cover but the tall Bearcat gets a leg on the ropes. Headbutt by Wright sends Valentine down. Ref falls over and Valentine accidently elbow drops him. Wright has a rope and chokes Valentine. HOLY SHIT, Valentine sells this like he's being legit strangled to death. Ref checks to see what's going on but still can't seem to see the rope. Bearcat conceals the rope in his trunks and picks up the very cheap pin. Bearcut celebrates and indicates to the ref that he'd done it all with a headlock. Valentine is pulsating on the mat, DEAD. A guy comes over to try to tell the ref what's happened and Bearcat LAMPS him. Then he tries to come again and Bearcat kicks at him. Too late, the ref reverses the decision: DQ! Wright goes nuts and goes back to choking Valentine who is alreafy OUT COLD. A dude come to try to drag Valentine out of the ring but Wright kicks him off. He punches the ref out. This is some major heeling right here! Crowd loudly bood Bearcat. This was pretty cool shit. 7. Wild Samoans vs Eddie Graham & Kevin Sullivan We're in St. Petersburg here. Samoans very young here, and it's weird to see Afa and Sika look closer to The Islanders, though they are still even at this point fatter than Tama and Haku. Footage cuts out in the middle of the match so we don't see it. This seems incredibly early for Kevin Sullivan to have been in a match though, but apparently he was already in his early 20s. 8. Jack Brisco and Paul Jones vs. Johnny Valentine and Buddy Colt I can confirm the guy in the earlier match was Jones. Colt works over Brisco. Valentine in with the sledgehammers to Brisco's neck. Elbow. Brisco is able to make the tag, but Valentine cuts him off before any "hotness" can occur. Jones manages to get an Indian deathlock on Valentine though. Brisco bumps into the ref. Colt goes onto the top rope and breaks the deathlock. Colt and Jones slugfest now. Valentine is holding his leg in pain. Jones sneaks the pin on Colt. Ref had lost control of this one a long time ago. The match is over but Colt goes over and smashes Jones's arm into the post. Solie mentions that these were the same tactics that broke Johnny Walker's arm. Florida seemed to be THE PLACE for Mr. Wrestlings to work unmasked. 9. Battle Royal Man Mountain Mike. Ron Fuller. Buddy Colt. Yahahari. The Saints. Tim Woods. $8,000 involved. We clip straight to the last two men, Paul Jones and Buddy Colt. No love lost between these two. Jones's face is a crimson mask Solie tells us. Jones is weakened and fatigued, as is Colt. 18 other guys gone. Jones pounds on Colt who charges and gets himself backdropped out of the ring. Jones wins! He gets the $8k! Solie is in the studio now with a man in a suit with white hair. Who is this man? Mr. Glenn Dobbs. He thanks CWF for all their help with the charity golf tournament this past few weeks. Solie talks about Tulsa being responsible for making Tampa a power in football. A lot of talk of "Mr. Jim Herald" here. Over $10,000 at stake in this golf tournament. There's 6 tournaments in one. This dude wouldn't be out of place in Commissioner Gordon's office in Batman 66. He also reminds me a little bit of current US Veep Joe Biden. Solie mentions that the current NWA World Champ, like Dobbs, is from Oklahoma. Dobbs talks about his memories of Leroy McGuirk and Gorgeous George. Dobbs says he saw Lou Thesz wrestle many times and he wanted him to play in defence for him. Solie says, we're going to take a look at Thesz in action now. Great little segment that. Solie's jacket was something else! Obviously I had to pause things to look up who the hell Glenn Dobbs was. The answer is that he's the PERFECT studio guest for Solie to talk to: a 50s football star turned State athletic director. The most Solie person imaginable. 10. Lou Thesz vs. Johnny Valentine Solie mentions Thesz has been on a tour of the orient. Valentine tries to choke Thesz who uses a forearm smash to drop him. Hammer across the chest by Valentine. Thesz comes back with forearms. Armdrag takeover by Thesz. Swank counter wrestling now. There's a disputed pinfall that the ref didn't see, and Solie declares Valentine the winner. 11. Dusty Rhodes & Buddy Colt & Paul Jones & Eddie Graham (Lights Out Match) Dusty as a heel here. Anything goes in this one. All four men are in. Graham beats on Dusty. The NWA hasn't sanctioned the match according to Solie. Dusty has a "laceration of the head ... 280lbs, a bear of a man". Dusty is bleeding like a stuffed pig. "This has to be like hitting an ox right between te eyes". Jones and Graham are beating the shit out of Dusty here. "He's wearing the crimson mask". Jones pounds on Rhodes. Graham in "with the hardest punch in wrestling history". As Graham pounds on Dusty, he shudders. It's quite unnerving to see. He collapses and tags out. Solie says that the amount Dusty has been beaten is "almost inhuman". Dandy Jack, Colt's manager, trips Graham who goes after him. Dusty throws a chair into the ring. Colt and Jones fight over the chair. Colt has it. Ref is out. Jones smashes Colt over the head. Graham comes back in and covers. Ref is out. Second ref in. Dandy Jack comes in with a cane and kicks. Dusty grabs a chair, he's covered in blood. Graham and Jones win. This was cool as fuck. 12. Dory Funk Jr vs. Jerry Brisco [??] Silent footage again. And this one seems unlisted. Pretty sure it's Dory vs. Jerry again. Side headlock by Brisco. Dory uses his bodyweight on him. Spinning toehold? No! Brisco powers out. Stomp! Brisco goes to work disscretating Dory's leg. Figure-four! Dory is able to manouvre out of it. Covers for 2. Dory's leg is injured. Goes for a butterfly suplex, countered into a backslide for 2! Jerry takes a big bump to the outside. As Brisco comes back in he's ready to fight. Series of lefts. Crowd counts them. He grabs Dory's leg. Now more lefts. Shoves the ref down. That's it for the bell. DQ. Figurefour now on Dory whose leg is fucked. Ref raises his arm. This was a pretty good match, around ***3/4. 13. Bob Orton Jr. vs. Hiro Matsuda Wow, this is cool to see. I think The Spoiler, Don Jardine is on commentary here with Solie, and he mentions that you can see a lot of Orton's father in his style. Orton with forearms on Matsuda. Solie mentions how Matsuda once defeated Danny Hodge for the Junior heavyweight title. He uses "oriental tactics" according to Solie. Sweet side suplex by Orton. Backbreaker. Running powerslam. Matsuda comes back with a sleeper. He's not wearing any boots. Matsuda picks up the win with a flash pin. Orton demonstrated some of his bombs in this match. Matsuda looks like he was a good worker. 14. Danny Hodge vs. Jerry Brisco Hodge signs some autographs while he's getting introduced. No commentary here. Armdrag by Hodge. Answered by Brisco. Another armdrag by Hodge. Headscissors now. This is worked in a very amatuer style as you might imagine. Jerry goes for a quick take over. Hodge back up to a vertical base. Amatuer takeover by Brisco. He's on top of him now. This is a bit like watching Olympic wrestling. Single leg takedown now by Hodge into a leglock into the figurefour. Brisco gets to the ropes. Irish whips Hodge into the turnbuckle. Hodge with a punch now. Brisco hits a big left. Hip toss! Hip toss! Headlock. Hodge with a dropkick. Covers for 2. Snapmare by Hodge. Jerry tries to get him over for a Boston crab. Kneelift by Hodge. Sunset flip by Brisco. This one is a bit too stop-start for my tastes. Whenever they start getting going, they seem to reset. Slightly annoying feature of this "shoot style". Abdominal stretch by Brisco now. Hodge powers out of it. Jerry gets a knee to the gut going in for a crossbody, painful. Backbreaker by Hodge. Covers but he's in the ropes. Brisco gets Hodge up for an airplane spin! Round and round and round. But Jerry makes himself giddy and that gives Hodge scope to cover and that'll do it for 3. He retains the Junior title. Pretty disappointing match from where I'm sitting. I can see some people liking this but it nevers gets out of second gear. 15. Jack Brisco vs Buddy Colt There's a chap sitting in the front row wearing a tweed jacket and a bow tie. Awesome! There's also a woman sitting there I think with her knitting. Amazing! There's a ref bump here which seems to be a staple of Eddie Graham's booking. Manager Dandy Jack gets up on the apron and ... it's basically a botched interference finish and Jack Brisco picks up the win. Colt seems angry with Dandy. They have words. Colt considers hitting Dandy Jack, who looks not unlike Mr. Fuji with the hat, cane and suit. He is quite camp also. Whispers in Colts ear. Dandy Jack has something of the 1930s silent-era-film star about him. Looks like he's got away with it today. 16. Jack Brisco vs. Dory Funk Jr. Thesz is the ref. This is an hour-long match, but Solie tells us these are just the closing moments (thank god!). This is 52 minutes in. The speed is quite fast. Butterfly suplex by Dory. Covers for 2. Backslide by Brisco for 2. Brisco fires up with lefts. Thesz pulls Brisco from him. Dory has colour. He's dazed and does the drunk punching. Action goes outside. Dory pulls Brisco back in. Jack Brisco is out cold. Dory covers but Thesz won't count it. Dory is pissed off. Spinning toehold. Thesz gets the mic. "This man deserves a 2 minute rest". What the fuck? Thesz calls for a time out. Solie justifies it because the fact Thesz pulled Brisco from Dory when he was punching him caused the situation. Weird. Dory is still on top. Spinning toehold. Brisco comes back with lefts. Dory falls back. Both guys bloodied and shattered. Butterfly suplex by Dory again! Covers for 2. Rights by Dory now. Two count. Laces to the face. Two count. Slugfest now. Right and lefts. The bell has gone, it's a 60-minute time-limit draw. Does that include Thesz's total BS 2-minute time out? This seemed like it was a really good match. Dory has been good on this footage. 17. Jack Brisco vs. [bob Orton Jr???] Another unlisted match seemingly. Not sure who the opponent is for Brisco here. Dark hair, black trunks. Looks too muscular to be Paul Jones. I can't get a good look at him, could also be Orton Jr, or someone else entirely. Opponent works over Brisco's leg. Big back suplex by opponent -- this is what makes me think it might be Orton, cos he busted that out vs. Matsuda. 2! Backbreaker by Brisco who picks up the win and he gets or retains a title. 18. Jack Brisco vs. Buddy Colt This is the rematch for the Florida TV title. Colt up to his old tricks with the arm on the ring post. Solie reminds us that he injured Brisco before with that. Colt uses his knee to attack the Jack's back. Brisco has been on a tour around the US and Solie suggests that he might be "over wrestled" at this point. Interesting, because Brisco did notoriously get road fatigue. Colt punches Brisco in the throat. Neckbreaker by Colt. Ref bump. Everyone talks about how great Eddie Graham was ... but EVERY MATCH has a ref bump. Colt with a slam ... and Colt manages to get a three count and NEW Florida TV champion! Wow, relatively clean win. 19. Jack Brisco vs. Harley Race No commentary again. There's a shot of the crowd that looks like that shot of the crowd you see in Monty Python. Race hits a piledriver. Falling headbutt. Brisco with lefts and rights. Race upside in the ropes. Excellent moustache on Race! Flair flip by Race over the turnbuckle. Butterfly suplex by Brisco. Kneedrop gets him 2. Backdrop. Arm bar by Brisco.Race comes back with a kick. Gutwrench suplex! Gets 2. Vertical suplex by Race. Awesome! Falling headbutt. Two count! Kneedrop by Race. Brisco tries to fire up, just a hope spot. Headlock by Race now, but Brisco gets a big back suplex. Covers. No! Just two. Enjoying this one. Jack goes for the figurefour but Race blocks. Race goes for a suplex but Jack falls on top of him for two. Race goes up top but Brisco catches him and throws him off. Cover ... no cigar. Big backbreaker by Brisco now, Race gets his leg on the rope. Race headbutts Brisco's stomach. Another headbutt. A falling headbutt. Still only two! Backdrop by Race to the outside ... but oh no, that's the end of the footage! Nooo!!! That was looking like a great match! Potentially ****+ I wonder if this is complete anywhere. Excellent bombfest-type Harley match. ---------- Thoughts: Well obviously this wasn't TV but a best of comp looking at stuff around 73 and 74. The action is not as slow or ponderous as you might expect from this era, in fact, I don't see a discernable difference in the style from what we see for most of the 80s. Solie is a fantastic commentator when he's in his element, and I think Florida is his most natural setting. A lot of this stuff is pretty high quality if you can get past the warped tape and no commentary on half the matches. Florida looks like it had some top workers in the 70s, but I have to wonder about the undercard. That said, Bearcat Wright while not a great-looking worker, did get some serious heat for that brutal choking in his post-match. Oh and there's a ref bump in every single match ... Dusty got it from Eddie Graham. MVP: You'd have to say Jack Brisco really, although Dory Funk Jr. is surprisingly good in a lot of this stuff. Much less Boring Dory than he might be a few years later, although granted I was getting shorter matches or the hot finishes of longer ones rather than the exteneded mat classics. Jack Brisco was a real star here though and in that tag match seems like a wrestler from a different decade than the other guys involved. He was great at fired up comebacks, hope spots, and selling -- almost a prototype for the Steamboat / Martel / Santana type. He also has good execution on his high spots, and keeps things moving.

Whereas the Cheesy Journey focuses on prime post-84 Vince-led WWF TV cheddar, in this thread, I'm going to be watching footage from around the territories from before 84. I'm mainly going to focus on 4 different promotions, what I'd call "the big boys" in the 1970s and early 80s: Georgia Championship Wrestling, Championship Wrestling from Florida, Mid-Atlantic and The AWA. However, I may take in occassional stuff from elsewhere. The aim of this thread it to try to get a real feel for how each promotion presented its product on TV. For my first sitting, I'm going to be watching GCW from November 20th 1982 to January 1st 1983, the footage is a bit jumbled up taken from several shows, but roughly in order. Gordon Solie is our host, he's with Mike Jackson. 1. Buzz Sawyer vs. Mike Starbuck Sawyer is wild, Solie calls him "berserk" and a "mad dog". He beats the crap out of Starbuck. SUPERB scoop powerslam for the 3-count. Buzz goes over to Solie, he's ranting and raving and screaming. But no time to waste be we're straight on to the next match ... 2. Butch Reed vs. Korista Korchenko Solie mentions that he doesn't know how close Korchnenko is to Ivan Koloff but is his countryman. Reed is dominating him and is fucking stacked here. Korchenko does get some offense in though, but Reed comes back with explosive rights. And slams him for the 3. Buzz Sawyer is still around though going crazy and he wants to fight Reed, but he's restrained by backstage staff. Reed is also escorted out. Back from the break and we continue at BREAK NECK PACE now to the next match: 3. Moondogs vs. Randy Barber & Dale Veazy The Moondogs are carrying bones. Scrappy McGowan is our ref. Solie calls this an "Australian Tagteam Event". JJ Dillon is the manager of the Moondogs at this point. Veazy is well-built for a jobber. Solie: "The Moondogs have a practice of tagging in and out with great regularity". Big atomic drop on Veazy. I can't pretend to tell the Moondogs apart and Solie makes no attempt to. Veazy makes a comeback and manages to make a hot tag. Barber is a house of fire! But Moondog #1 cuts him off and tags out to Moondog #2. Powerslam. Gets 2. Headbutt. Can't believe they are working double heat with these guys. Backbreaker! Elbow from the top! That's 3. Moondogs looked good. Sawyer is screaming about The Omni on Thanksgiving Night, he can't wait for it. Wasting absolutely no time at all, Solie is with Ivan Koloff now who is ready for Paul Orndorff. He's going to be taking the national belt away from him because he's a better and smarter wrestler. 4. Ivan Koloff vs. Mike Jackson Solie mentions that Mike Jackson is "a young fella with a masters degree, I might add". Arm-drag city from Jackson to start but Koloff cuts him off with a belly-to-back suplay. Solie says that Ivan suffers from "a definite superiority complex". Paul Orndorff is standing there watching the action. I predict a run in! Koloff works over Jackson with punches, knees and kicks. Jackson comes back and hits a head scissors! And a dropkick. Koloff ducks a charge and lays into Jackson in the ropes. Orndorff objects and jaws Ivan. This allows Jackson to dump him outside, but Ivan fiddles with his kneepad and seems to have something in it for the cheap win. Orndorff jumps the ring though and hits a backdrop. Solie is with Buzz Sawyer again and he's going to embarrass Rich Zenfield ... 5. Buzz Sawyer vs. Rich Zenfield Solie says that Sawyer is "many times the eye of the hurricane". He is brutal with Zenfield. Stomp on the nose! Scoop powerslam for 3. Post-match he uses repeated elbow drops. This is uncalled for! Sawyer hurtles Scrappy McGowan aside and Butch Reed and Tommy Rich hit the ring to clear him. Sawyer shouts some more now. He's livid. "Rich ... I HATE YOUR GUTS" Koloff is there now and he's not happy about what he's just seen. Ivan says he wants the American dollar and the glory. Still wants Orndorff's belt. 6. Ivan Koloff vs. Hamilton Solie says the Koloff's Russian chain is not allowed on television. Hamilton is a muscular and athletic looking chap. On commentarty, they discuss Ivan's continued sneaky usage of the knee. He's got something in his high boots. Hamilton gets quite a lot of this match. But Ivan hits a backbreaker and a series of double knee drops on his back. Painful looking. Koloff with a cool move driving Hamilton to the mat with his knee from the top turnbuckle. That's all she wrote. Buzz Sawyer in a bandana and a basketball top now screams more behind a cage. Ivan Koloff is there too and he's ready for action too. On another show now, Buzz Sawyer has attacked Tommy Rich. Ole Anderson is lurking too, but Butch Reed is there. Ivan Koloff has come out but Paul Orndroff is there! All three of the faces high-five. 7. Buzz Sawyer vs. Randy Mulley Sawyer treats This Man Mulley like his bitch and takes him out quickly with his scoop powerslam. They are behind that cage again. He starts screaming about how much he wants to face Tommy Rich. Ole Anderson is here and calls the faces (Reed, Rich and Orndorff) the 3 musketeers. He says they are going to go on tour and beat them all over the place. Next we go over to a video package from JJ Dillon, who says he's the greatest mind in wrestling today. He said that the Moondogs would win the 7th annual tag tournament and they did. Dillon is wearing a nice suit. He says it's nice that he's got such talent that he doesn't have to go to the arenas. He talks about how Sonny King has got to man-manage the Samoans at all times, because otherwise they are going to go rummaging around bins looking for coconuts! Political correctness gone wild here in 1983! He says that the $30,000 he's just won would buy a lot of coconuts. But he wants the National titles for The Moondogs. 8. Moondogs vs. Dale Veazy & McKenzie The idea seems to be here that Dillon is doing "long-distance managing" here, because he's not at ringside and Solie says he communicates mainly over the phone. Poor Dale Veazy's back takes a variety of back breakers and slams here. McKenzie is a black guy ... like Hamilton, I wonder if this "single name" black guy was a convention of this time or whether that's just a coincidence. Solie is with The Iron Sheik now. He says that's he's the best wrestler. Says that Paul Orndorff looks like Arnold Schwarznegger but doesn't have the guts to take up his $5,000 club challenge. 9. Iron Sheik vs. Dale Veazy Oh boy, bad month for Veazy here. Sheiky baby gets him in what Solie calls "the Iranian crossbow". Veazy hits a dropkick, but goes for a second one. "That's where his youthful virtuosity has served him poorly". Sonny King is on commentary and talks about the Moondogs situation. Abdominal stretch by Iron Sheik. Smashes his face into the apron. Belly-to-back suplex. Side salto suplex. That'll do. Solie with Sawyer and Koloff again. Buzz says he's from Florida and been to Busch Gardens so he's no stranger to cages. He's united with Ivan. Koloff says that Maddog has been very upset by Rich and Reed. Says that this morning he was sitting in the pool, "I said, Buzz, what are you doing in the pool, there's no water in there!" Ha ha ha. He still wants Orndorff's national title at Marietta tomorrow night! Sawyer says him and Ole will take out Butch Reed and Tommy Rich. MARRIETA, tomorrow night! ANOTHER Sawyer promo now. He's wearing a bandana and a t-shirt. He shouts a lot. Koloff cuts another promo too, he's going to crack Orndorff's neck! He says he knows US laws and rules, and he knows justice. Doesn't matter if it's on tour or here in Atlanta, he's going to take that belt. Ole with a promo now talking about "Bruce Reed". He did go by Bruce at this point in his career. Sayer barges in again though, "REED RICH REED RICH THAT'S ALL I EVER HEAR" Another promo now, this is a fun rattle through of the build in this feud. I like the way it's got 6 men involved. We do seem to hear from the heels a lot more than the faces though. Ole and Buzz are here. Ole is in cerebral mode. Says that they are all "great wrestlers", but these two are better "experience and youth". Ole is selling the Marrietta show again. 10. Ivan Koloff vs. Dale Veazy Oh boy, more beatings for more Veazy! Solie mentions that Dale is a power and weight-lifting champion. Well I'm glad he's good at something! He gets a shine here. But Koloff slams him and controls with his knees. There's that driving knee move from the top again! What a cool finisher! 11. Buzz Sawyer vs. Burhead Jones Solie says that "for a young man, Sawyer is exceptionally cynical and bitter". MASSIVE scoop powerslam for the 3 count. Sawyer's powerslam is very good. I don't know if it's better than DiBiase's but it's certainly "up there". Ivan and Sonny King with Solie now. Solie mentions again how his Russian chain match has been banned from TV. Koloff says that "these Americans make their rules", but he sticks by them. He denies using foreign objects or pulling tights. Orndorff has injured his ribs. An Iranian flag is interfering in the corner of the screen. Iron Sheik is here of course! "This Bruce ... what is his last name? Bruce Reed ..." He says that the likes of Tommy Rich have eaten "too much chilli and hot dog" too take his Iranian club challenge "you American hock". 12. Johnny Rich vs. jobber Ric Flair is on commentary celebrating his one-year anniversary as World Champion, He runs through all the people he's beaten and thanks them for proving that he's the greatest wrestler on earth. He's got an open contract and says it "costs a lot of money to wrestle Ric Flair". "If you got the money, I got the time". "Can you imagine a skinny emaciated punk like that runnning his mouth out here?" He's talking about Roddy Piper. Flair says he has no real competition right now. 13. Tommy Rich vs. Buzz Sawyer Rich is on commentary here and this is a clip from The Omni. Sawyer has jumped Rich after the match. There's a big brawl and lots of guys are around. The brawl goes into the crowd. And we see it go backstage. More brawling outside now. Trashcan over Sawyer's head! 14. Paul Orndorff vs. Ivan Koloff Orndorff is on commentary for this clip from The Omni. Tom Pritchard is on commentary also. Koloff had Orndorff with his knee and is claiming there was something in it. Ivan is here now and he's LIVID. "You coward American there was nothing in my knee!" He's been nothing if not consistant here Koloff, he swears that he's not cheating. 15. Iron Sheik vs. Zane Smith Orndorff comes on commentary. He says that he'll have a match on TV TONIGHT with Ivan. He's sick of Ivan running his mouth! He's ready to fight. Solie says, "let's check with the director then". Sonny King joins Solie now and gives his take on what's been going on: the heels are in the right. Meanwhile, Iron Sheik chokes Smith over the second rope.Kneelift. Rubs his face in the mat. Belly-to-back suplex does it for the pinfall. Solie always talks about how the jobbers are young and inexperienced and new to the sport, etc. 16. Paul Orndorff vs. Ivan Koloff Ivan has accepted the challenge and they get right to it! Backdrop by Orndorff! This is 100 miles an hour. Headlock by Ivan. Punches by Orndorff. Koloff slows things down and starts to control. Front facelock. Solie says that Ivan HAD to accept the challenge or complete lose face. The headlock each other now. Orndorff works the arm with a series of wrenches. Wraps the arm around his leg and wrenches some more. Bodyslam. Hammerlock. Ivan makes it to the ropes. Armbar by Orndorff. Bodyslam by Orndroff. Elbow drop. Ivan misses a charge. Back to the armbar. Ivan hits an elbow. Snap mare. Kneedrop. Backbreaker. That's a 2-count. Clubbing blows by the Russian Bear now. Orndorff comes back with strikes. His punches are connecting hard. Ivan does something to the kneepad!! He catches Orndorff in the ribs. Ivan throws the ref to one side. Instant DQ. Scrappy McGowan comes in. Throws him out. Dale Veazy comes in! Thrown out! Ha ha ha, Vaezy is the cavalry? LOL Orndorff comes back with punches. Ivan bails. Some hot action here, about *** while it lasted. Sawyer says that he'll wrestle Bruce Reed anywhere and signs the contracy. The guy is completely unstable, unhinged. Tom Pritchard adjusts his tie. Sawyer with another promo and Reed is dragged away from getting into a brawl. Amazing moment as Buzz is in full rant but then stops dead when Ole turns up ... "Mr. Anderson ..." They've played the relationship in an interesting way here, Buzz looks up to Ole and listens to him as the more experienced man. Seems to defer to him and show him respect. Ole says Bruce Reed has to turn up on Christmas day now he's signed the contract. 17. Buzz Sawyer vs. Randy Barber These poor jobbers, they've taken some real kickings off Buzz in the past month or so. He takes a leaf out of Iron Sheik's book here and rubs Barber's face in the mat. Ole is on commentary as Sawyer hits a suplex and a frogsplash from the top rope. Nice to see some variation in his squashes here. They are hyping a Huntington card and, of course, The Omni on Christmas night. Ivan Koloff is out and talks about how he had Tommy Rich bleeding in the middle of the ring. 18. Ric Flair vs. David Jones Ric Flair is in the middle of the ring and removes his robe to reveal the world belt. He's taking on David Jones who has a reputation as a rugged, fast-moving youngster. Solie says Flair was "born and raised in a jetsetter environment". Abdominal stretch. Guillotine. Backbreaker. Vertical suplay. Elbowdrop. Figurefour. Jobber offense count for Jones: 0 moves. Sawyer and Ivan is out again. They've signed for a tag match with Reed and Rich. Ole comes out and mentions that Flair will be on that card too. 19. Wild Samoans vs. Ken Hall and Allen Tupperello The Samoans, the champs are here. Sonny King compains about having to come on TV and wrestle "these people". Kings says that it's because other competitors are scared and know what will happen to them. The Freebirds seem to be on King's radar now. Solie makes no attempt to differentiate between Afa and Sika.Afa hits an Airplane spin into a Samoan drop for 3. 20. Paul Orndorff vs. Chick Donovan Very very loud screaming woman in the crowd for this one. Orndorff looked decent. 21. Buzz Sawyer vs, Paul Brown Georgia employed a wide variety of jobbers didn't they! I have to say Tom Pritchard's comments are generally rubbish, he adds very little to commentary. Apparently Butch Reed has a box but won't say what's it in.Weird that some people call him "Bruce" and others call him "Butch". Sawyer uses the frog splash again to finish. I think I prefer the scoop powerslam. Sawyer wants to know what's in the box! It's a parcel wrapped up. He tries to get it but a ref tells him he'll face suspension if he touches the box! Sawyer thinks it's a conspiracy! I wonder what's in that box. Solie wants to take another look at The Samoans, the Naional champs and The Moondogs, who won the recent tournament. This appears to be a heel vs. heel feud. 22. Samoans vs. Dale Veazy and another jobber Solie calls King a "low key individual". It's come to something where I now recognise Dale Veazy, and he's getting beaten up as usual. Solie says that it seems that Sonny King deliberately planned not to win the tournament because he wanted to see what The Moondogs were made of ... huh? How's that a plan? He didn't want to win $30,000 just to see what another team was like? 23. Moondogs vs. McKenzie [?] and Marvin Turner It's interesting that these teams followed each other from New York to Georgia. The Samoans must have arrived first. Solie and Pritchard discuss how it is strange that The Samoans are ALWAYS accompanied by Sonny King, but JJ Dillon is almost never there in person with the Moondogs. Solie says Dillon has an office in Florida with 3 phonelines in it which he uses to communicated with his charges all over the country. Novel. I think one of these two jobbers is McKenzie. Solie mentions the other guy is Marvin Turner. Moondogs hit the backbreaker / elbowdrop move again. 24. Tommy Rich vs. jobber Ric Flair is on commentary and calls GCW "one of the most prestigious shows on television today. And he says he always wants to make time for it. Flair says his schedule over the past year is probably unrivalled in professional sport. Says he wants to be a bit more selective in his choice of opponents for the next year now. Says he's not going to get into that ring night after night until these men prove to him he's worthy of a challenge. Rich has his stomach and ribs taped up. Flair says that he's now "an established commodity" and from now on "he's going to be a little harder to deal with". Sawyer now back with that box. He's not allowed to touch it. Sawyer says they are trying to drive him crazy. Ole says they can't outwrestle us so "they have to resort to psychological warfare". Sawyer rants off mic this whole time, he's deranged. Argghhh, what's in that box?!!! I can't resist going onto the next disc. I HAVE to get to that Omni show to see what's in the box. 25. Ivan Koloff vs. Mike Jackson Solie calls Jackson a "fleet-footed competitor". Solie mentions Koloff's mysterious knee again. Jackson seems to be more at JTTS level than the pure jobbers we've seen in other matches. He gets a lot of this one. A more competitive match for Ivan. He catches Jackson with a knee and he takes a tumble to the outside. Ivan jaws the crowd. Jackson comes back in with a sunset flip. Backbreaker by Koloff. Doublestomp! Atomic drop. Jackson sells it by stamping his feet and holding his head. Solie says that "Jackson has acquitted himself very well". Jackson makes a comeback but Ivan brings him down with a back leg sweep, that's experience. Turnbuckle. Jackson misses a charge. Koloff is struggling to put this man away! Snapmare by Jackson. Backdrop by Koloff. Backdrop by Jackson. Goes for a splash but catches the knees. Koloff goes up top now, THE KNEEDRIVER! I love that move! A surprisingly compelling match this. As good as the Orndroff one, about ***. Sawyer is losing his shit again now. Christ, he's really riled here. Now it's Flair out in his shades and with his belt. Flair says he's a pro wrestler by choice, and takes a lot of pride in it. He paid his dues, through training and hardwork. Athletes involved with World Championship Wrestling, with Mid Atlantic Wrestling and the Crocketts, with Mid South Wrestling, with South West Wrestling, with World Class Championship Wrestling, with Championship Wrestling in Florida! He says a lot of kids now think all it takes is getting a pair of boots and a set of tights, and that's all it takes. But that's not it. Flair says that you can't do it without a lot of money and time. Flair says that anything you see that isn't associated with wrestling on TV has NOTHING to do with the National Wrestling Alliance! Or Ric Flair who is the World Heavyweight Champion. In other words ... don't watch any shitty indy shows. 26, Great Kabuki vs. Zane Smith Kabuki is using chops galore. Hits the jobber with a kick. Gets on a nervehold. I hate the nervehold. Gary Hart is there too. Kabuki with some nasty looking moves on the jobbers legs. Ouch! That looks like it might really hurt. Solie mentions that Hart is the most evil of the managers he knows. Thrust kick by Kabuki. Kick from the top rope for 3. Tom Pritchard was quite good during this segment. 27. Buzz Sawyer vs. Zane Smith Bad month for Smith. Solie talks about experience again. I like his narrative that all jobbers are trying to make their way and gaining experience. Sawyer kills Smith. Solie mentions that Sawyer has been competing since he was 4 years old. He's been unnerved by what's happened with Butch Reed, but WHAT HAS happened? What was in the box? Back suplex into a bridge for the 3. Another squash variation for Buzz. Sawyer comes over and Ivan is there. They are still hyping the Christmas Omni card. This card has been weeks coming now. Sawyer is fucking demented here, he has a screw lose that boy. Koloff tells him to take it easy. Sawyer keeps shouting "WHAT'S IN THE BOX?!" I wanna know too. JJ Dillon on video link-up now. He's making fun of the fact that the Samoans don't wear shoes. Says it's because they don't know right from left. Dillon says he'll put the $30k up for the title shot. 28. Johnny Rich vs. jobber Rich is on commentary talking over this. Sawyer and Koloff come out and jump Rich here. Sawyer as a hair clippers and shave his head! Why? Just to be dicks. Sawyer promo now. He's STILL talking about the box. Solie: "If you open it sir, you'll be suspended for life". What a ridiculous ruling, I think I'm on Buzz's side here. "I'm sick of you and everyone else trying to run Buzz Sawyer's life". You tell em Sawyer! I notice they've changed the wrapping on the box. Solie says before the hour is over they are going to OPEN the box. HOLY SHIT! 29. Buzz Sawyer vs. Bill Smith Ole Anderson comes on commentary. Ole says that Pritchard is so excited about the box that his knees are shaking. I love how grouchy Ole can be. Solie mentions people returning to the area: The Super Destroyer, Masked Superstar, Stan Hansen ... Ole got upset at the name of Hansen because he once cost him $25k in a tournament at the Omni that he had to forgo because Hansen wasn't there. Solie says that it was for $30k. Ole says yeah "25 for me, 5 for him, you don't think he is equal to me do you?!" Awesome. Ole said that when they tagged, Hansen was so helpless he almost had to dress him. SCOOP POWERSLAM, 1, 2. Buzz pulls him up. Solie: "You act like you could buy him off with a glazed donut or something". Ha ha ha. Sawyer pins the jobber after a bridged belly-to-back again. He's used three different finishing moves so far. There's a Koloff and Iron Sheik promo now but the tape is very jumpy. Sort out the tracking! They are still hyping that Omni Xmas card! 30. Iron Sheik & Ivan Koloff vs. Mike Jackson and McKenzie So Ivan and Sheiky baby are tagging now? No, seemingly just a one off. Sonny King is on commentary talking about Bruce Reed's box. King says that Sawyer has friends and they have his back. "Gutwrench salto well executed by the Sheik". This team is SO MUCH COOLER than Sheik and Volkoff in 85. King is very laconic on commentary. He's been rambling some shit this whole time talking about seemingly everything apart from The Moondogs. Belly-to-belly by Iron Sheik. Kneedrops by Koloff. Backbreaker! That'll do for 3. Awesome heel team here. It's Stan Hansen! He's REALLY pissed off. "Ole I stood by ya when everyone in the world turned their back on ya, and I stood by ya!" He's wearing an awesome cowboy shirt. I love those southern threads. He warns Ole not to get involved. Hansen is hyping the Omni Xmas card now and calls himself "the law man" of the area now. 31. Ivan Koloff vs. King We've had a very good look at Koloff on this footage. He leads a lot with his knees in the offense which is playing into this angle with his alleged loaded kneepad very well. Front facelock. Fucking hell, 35 more minutes in now and we STILL HAVEN'T SEEN WHAT'S IN THE BOX! King is a true jobber's jobber. Classic jobber look. Ivan still wants to win Orndorff's national title. Backbreaker. 1, 2. Pulls him up. Turnbuckle. THE KNEEDRIVER!!! Awesome!! 1, 2, 3. Koloff gets his chain but Orndorff rushes the ring before he can use it. And he runs Koloff off. Iron Sheik and Sonny King are with Solie. Now Ivan. He can't wait for the Russian Chain match at the Omni!! Buzz Sawyer now he's ready for Rich and Reed! "I heard you said the word pain ... I live with pain daddy!" He's a troubled man. "We're talking Christmas night daddy, we're talking shaving Butch Reed's head!" We're over to Best of Championship Wrestling now ... are they going to show us inside this fucking box or not? Iron Sheik cuts a promo, but Ivan is here to hype that chain match some more. He says he's never lost one. He's going to derive great pleasure stomping his face into the back and taking the national title back to Russia with him. Solie runs down some dates and they put the cage in front of him. Why did they do that? Buzz Sawyer rants about the Xmas card. 32. Samoans vs. Hamilton and Mullins Sonny King on commentary for some reason talks about Ole Anderson and Stan Hansen. What are they together now? How did that happen? Mullins looks like a mini-Stan Hansen, a skinny milky one -- Stan Hansen as imagined by the Mulkeys. Hansen is on commentary. He tells Sonny King to speak up, who has been mumbling as per usual. We seem to have skipped a beat here, because Hansen and Ole are back together now. That happened very quickly. Sonny King has been really shitty so far on this stuff. Samoans have the jobbers beat but don't pin them. Hansen says that the Samoans are probably one of the hardiest races in the world, but him and Ole can be big and vicious too. Has Ole somehow turned babyface? I don't get what's going on, because Hansen sounds like a face. Ole and Hansen storm the ring for a pier 6. They explode on the Samoans. 33. Ivan Koloff vs. Tom Pritchard Seemingly JIP. Pritchard is in control. Springboard from the turnbuckle. Headlock by Pritchard. 52 minutes into this second disc now and still no box!! Koloff grabs the chain but Brad Armstrong jumps out and stops him. Ref stops the match. 34. Buzz Sawyer vs. Mike Starbuck Sawyer is pissed off. Ole is on commentary and hyping the Xmas Omni card. I am confused, I think the Ole and Hansen stuff must have come a couple of weeks after this OR Ole was a heel in one feud and a babyface in another one. This seems jumbled up here. I think the most likely thing is that the stuff with Hansen / Ole and the Samoans is from EARLIER in the year when Ole and Hansen were still tagging. Sawyer wins after the scoop powerslam. The Omni show is TONIGHT!! This match took place on Xmas day 1982, before the Omni show! Buzz cuts a promo. He's totally deranged and barely makes sense. Solie says there are still tickets available so buy them. Iron Sheik is going to face Tommy Rich. Ivan Koloff will take on Paul Orndorff. Quick promos one after the other. They need to shift those tickets. 35. Masked Superstar vs. Mike Starbuck Starbuck working double duty here bless him. Solie mentions that Masked Superstar uses a hold called the "Japanese Cobra". Nick Patrick the referee here and Solie takes time out to praise him. Now I've just worked out that the unboxing must have taken place on the 12/18/82 show. So where the fuck is it on the footage? HOW ANNOYING. Masked Superstar hits a neckbreaker and Russian legsweep, but he's not ready to pin the man yet. Lariat. Japanese Cobra ... basically a cobra clutch on the mat. Right, that takes us right up to the Omni card. I'm not gonna get to see what's in that box. Argghhhhh! That's going to be pretty annoying, I'm going to pretend that the thing in the box was a pair of head clippers. That would make sense, Here's the Omni Xmas 82 card: GCW @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - December 25, 1982 (13,000) Terry Gibbs defeated Ken Timbs Joe Lightfoot fought Les Thornton to a draw Johnny Rich defeated Chick Donovan Tommy Rich defeated the Iron Sheik (w/ Sonny King) Andre the Giant, Tito Santana, & Stan Hansen defeated the Great Kabuki, the Masked Superstar, & the Super Destroyer The Moondogs (w/ JJ Dillon) fought National Tag Team Champions the Wild Samoans (w/ Sonny King) to a no contest Ivan Koloff defeated Paul Orndorff in a Russian chain match Butch Reed defeated Buzz Sawyer in a steel cage hair vs. hair match So Uncle Ivan won the National title! Sawyer got his head shaved. And the big tag match was a no contest. Apparently GCW promised to show the Reed vs. Sawyer match but only showed a few seconds before Sawyer came out and destroyed the tape. What a load of dick teases! -------- Thoughts: GCW could be a little repetitive since Sawyer essentially cut the same promo over and over and over again here, but that might also be his inexperience showing. Ivan and Ole varied their promos more. I wonder how much the likes of Dale Vaezy got paid, because in these two months, he was probably on tv more than Tommy Rich and Butch Reed combined! Seems like Georgia were treading water a little bit leading into Christmas because over several Omni shows the Rich / Reed / Orndorff vs. Ivan / Ole / Sawyer situation didn't develop all that much. They were in a holding pattern. One strange thing is that the heels seem to lead all the promos and the angles. We see A LOT more of Sawyer, Koloff and Ole than the faces. Reed didn't get on the mic once. MVP: I think a lot of people would say Buzz Sawyer, but I think he shows his inexperience in the promos and, basically, just shouts too much. He does have moments where he seems genuinely mental, but overall I think the schtick is a bit one-note. For me, the MVP on these shows both in the ring and on the mic was Ivan Koloff. Two matches around the *** mark in this sort of setting is some feat, and he's always controlled and interesting in his promos.

A lot of Buzz featured in a new thread of mine ... forthcoming, in about an hour or so.

LOL, Jay Strongbow said "you might want to be more serious in the ring". Of all people. I think Strongbow was more ridiculous than Hacksaw ever was. This was a fun read. Ha ha

Can you elaborate on this?

I guess the better analogy would be to theatre Khawk, and then it just comes down to performance. If an actor blows or fumbles his lines and brings the audience out of it, he'll get bad reviews. Same for the wrestler. The point is that wrestling can take itself and treat its workers seriously. Act like the angles are important and real, even if everyone knows they aren't. If the promotion itself isn't buying into the reality of an angle then what hope in hell does the audience have? The post-modern self-awareness is a problem with the presentation not the fans. Treat the thing with gravity and people will buy into it like they buy into anything else. All I'm saying.

In other words, everyone knows The Godfather is "a work" too, but people seldom dismiss the film as being "lies" or because of something Marlon Brando might have done in his life. We buy into the illusion of reality The Godfather creates. Do you know what The Godfather doesn't do though? It doesn't constantly draw attention to its own artificiality, to the lines of its own construction. There's no "winking" at the camera from Pacino "I'm playing Michael Corleone but *wink wink* we all know I'm big Al". The film would fail if that shit went down. So it is with wrestling. This is my argument.

There's two ways of taking that quotation though, Charles. Apply it to the movie industry. Does "truth" in that context mean "the real lives of the real actors" or "the truth and authenticity of their performances"? Is kayfabe merely "hiding the truth" or is it maintaining the 4th wall and creating the suspension of disbelief in the way a film or tv show might?

In my view, in that case, wrestling is broken and destined to become less and less relevant / more and more up it's own arse. Doesn't bother me too much, I don't watch much if any wrestling produced in the past 15 years. But kayfabe is as important to good wrestling as verismilitue might be to a good film, perhaps even more so. El-P said it best, post-modern wrestling doesn't work. If that means wrestling can't work in a world with the internet in it, so be it, wrestling no longer works.

I think in the early 90s the cartoon levels ramp up a bit and wrestling was already half-way towards being totally controlled by Vince anyway. What I really had in mind were the 1970s and the bulk the 1980s. Yes, it's true you got the vestiges of wrestling's carny / side-show roots in acts like the Zambuie Express, but even the likes of them and Kamala were presented as being a legit threat -- at least in the early 80s (and most here know my views on Kamala). The Samoans eating chicken bones, or acts like Abdullah the Butcher or The Orginal Sheik might appear to be really goofy from our vantage point, but some fans were legit terrified of them at the time. With no internet, people were less exposed to things in general. And ... while I don't really want to be reductive or derogatory about wrestling fans "back then", there'll have been a fair share who took those sort of acts straight up. As the 80s progressed, Vince kept turning the dial of absurdity up a few notches. We go from Chief Jay Strongbow, one of the more gimmick-y acts of the 1970s, to the likes of Akeem the African Dream and Hillbilly Jim in the space of a few years. Vince wasn't like the other promoters, he always loved his nonsense, and as soon as he took over dialed that shit up to 11. HOWEVER, before 1984, you'll seldom see promoters giving BELTS to the more side-show attractions. So whle your undercard might have had a few monsters or evil foreigners on them in the 1970s, the main event was Dory Jr vs. Jack Brisco straight-up legit wrestling. Sam Muchnik's philosophy had a lot to do with it, of course. And some territories (traditionally Memphis and Detroit, for example) were considered more geared towards comedy or sideshow "carniness" than others. But I think the dominant mode from the 1960s to the early 1980s was legitness and protecting kayfabe at all costs. No "winking", not even Memphis or Detroit.

Thirded. Good post Coffey.

My impression watching lots of old cards from all over the territories is that, while there might be some nonsense here and there, once you get to the main event it's all seriousness and business. There's absolutely no sense of "wink wink this isn't really real". I watched the DiBiase piledriver angle recently from Georgia when he ends up in a neck brace in hospital after the Freebirds give him five piledrivers. I didn't get a lot of "winking" from it. The impression I get from a guy like Bob Backlund is that he'd actually punch you in the face if you suggested that wrestling *wink wink* wasn't real. Guys like Bill Watts and Verne might have broken your leg. I'm not sure how much there's any real "nudge nudge" there. Maybe others can speak to this. I haven't really watched a lot of Gorgeous George to be honest.

I don't think it's ridiculous, I think it's naming the cause of the problems wrestling has had since then in general. What would be ridiculous would be arguing in any way that a return to Russo-style booking might be the answer. I know that's not what you're saying, but still. The remnants of his legacy remain and they should be stamped out now. And remember, for every good attitude era bit we could name, there are TEN or probably more absolute dogshit moments like the Russo and Hogan "worked shoot" in 2000. I actually think WWE have worked hard to undo a lot of that damage, but they could do more.

I don't want to get too off-topic, but historically competition was the exception not the norm. Don't forget, the NWA outlawed promotions who'd run against its members. Vince Sr's WWF had no competition. The AWA had no competition. Crockett had none. So "competition" in actuality only existed in any meaningful form from 1984 to 2001. In my massive arguments with jdw in the past over whether Vince was or wasn't a genius, he did bring up a few interesting points: 1. The total number of people watching wrestling after 1984 was probably down from before the "boom" (I'm still not sure on this, because it overlooks the millions of kids watching on TV ... i.e. US posting here ... who were hooked on wrestling who might not have been otherwise), but still, jdw made a good point about the adults. 2. Fewer towns were getting live wrestling as a result of the "boom". ---- Anyway, the point is that before 1984, I don't know if wrestling was "cyclical" in the way that we think of it being boom and bust. And when I say I don't know, I mean "I don't actually know". Seems like a lot of the territories did solid business and occassionally went on hot streaks, but mostly the gates were stable going back to the 50s. But then you have companies failing in the late 70s, so I don't know. My history doesn't stretch back far enough to be honest.

I don't think that wrestling has "always winked" at its audience. Not at all.

So, don't do two of the things that were a hugely significant part of the last "boom"? Absolutely. You can only break kayfabe once before the novelty completely wears off. And the funniest moments of the attitude era were moments in which Rock or Austin were allowed to free wheel on the mic. The more scripted stuff -- DX especially, anti-WCW skits etc. -- was embarrassing then and even more so now. The Attitude Era has been reponsible for more bad than good. They might have sold a lot of tickets short-term, but long-term they broke wrestling. I'm saying enough time has passed now for them to be able to fix it again.

They aren't very good analysts.

Bill - is that really true that wrestling is cyclical? I'd just like to analyse that comment for a moment, because I don't know if it is.

1. Cut all self-consciousness and anything kayfabe-breaking 2. Give performers more creative license and script them less tightly 3. Never try to do comedy

Brain, let's start a fantasy booking thread on HFW (Hollywood Fantasy Wrestling). This can be the first fantasy booking thread that is booked by committee.