JerryvonKramer

Does anyone have the 7/22/88 DiBiase vs. Savage match that ranked #21 on the first DVDR WWF set results? Are we sure this date is accurate? Checking Graham's site this would be a 12-minute match that took place in Miami. There's a Philly match on 7/23. Could it have been that? OJ covered the major MSG and Philly Ted vs. Savage matches earlier in this thread, I'm scratching my head a bit as to why it was THIS one that ranked top 100 in the results (the others didn't even seem to make the set). Just weird.

That's the guy with the slow voice I was trying to remember!

I completely don't understand where this idea that I was trying to devalue Rich on this show comes from and it's slightly pissing me off that people keep claiming this. The part where I'm going around different locations asking if people would know Rich there was to establish how big a star we were talking about. I think it's difficult to get a measure of how big Rich was in his prime (say 79-83). I was trying to ascertain the extent to which he was a national star as opposed to a territorial star. I don't know why that has been seen as a crusade to de-value him. Completely bizarre accusation. Then, later, all I was saying is that after 1984, when GCW no longer existed, Rich never again rose to national prominence in the same way. A claim so fucking uncontroversial that it is tantamount to a statement of bald fact. I don't know how anyone could say it was a knock. My point, that I was trying to get out before Johnny and co starting getting all defensive, was that Crockett was not prepared to push him as a top star and didn't seem to want to give him a job. He didn't return to JCP/ WCW until 1989, after Turner had already taken over, by which time he was firmly on the (lower) undercard as we've seen on WTBBP. The point was, that whatever he did in Memphis, he wasn't getting any national exposure, and didn't get the call from New York while he was basically shut out of Atlanta under Crockett, where he made his name. So he was only really a big star during his Georgia run. None of this stuff is a "crusade". I don't get where any of these charges are coming from.

I have my discs EXACTLY like Mad Dog's.

This is simply a record of the end-of-show awards for listeners of WTBBP, this will be updated on PTBN on an ongoing basis. If you have your own match of the nights, MVPs, etc. you can keep a record of them in this thread. Match of the Night: http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-end-of-show-awards-match-of-the-night/ MVP: http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-end-of-show-awards-mvp/ Billy Graham Award for Worst Performance: http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-end-of-show-awards-billy-graham-award-winner-for-worst-performance/ End of Decade Awards for the 1980s: http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-end-of-decade-awards-1980s/ -------------- Some fun facts and pointless stats: - So far from Starrcade 83 to Clash of the Champions 15, we have covered 43 shows. - The most MVPs that Chad has given out has been to Ric Flair (12 times); then, Bobby Eaton (4 times) and Tully Blanchard (3 times). - The most MVPs that I've given out have also been to Ric Flair (7 times); then, Arn Anderson (4 times), Tully Blanchard (3 times), Jim Cornette (3 times), Ricky Steamboat (3 times), and Lex Luger (3 times). - Chad and I have agreed on Match of the Night 27 times out of 43, but on MVP only 16 times and on Billy Graham Award only 10 times. - Including guest picks, Billy Graham himself is a 7-time Billy Graham Award winner, but is that the most? Nikita Koloff has 6, Junkyard Dog has 4, Steve Williams has 4, Kevin Sullivan has 4, and despite the level of hate he's inspired on the show, Jimmy "yeah yeah yeah" Garvin only has 3 -- incidentally the same amount as fellow WTBBP favourites Ranger Ross, Jack Victory, Dan Spivey, Sandy Scott, The Samoan Savage, and The Z-Man, who all have 3. Remarkably, El Gigante has only ever won it once. So Billy Graham is the true king of the award. He is also the only worker to win it unanimously for three consecutive shows. - The only performer to go from Billy Graham Award on one show to MVP on the next is Rick Steiner, who was Chad's Graham pick for the New Japan / WCW Supershow 91 and then his MVP for Superbrawl I. - Some of Chad's weirder picks for MVP include Al Perez (for Clash 2) and Tracy Smothers (GAB 90). - Neither myself nor Chad have given Sting MVP for a single show yet, in fact he's only ever been given it once by Derek for GAB 90. As a comparison point, (including guests) Luger has 8 MVPs. - Taking in all MVP votes, Flair has a total of 24, no one else comes close, the next are Luger and Bobby Eaton who are both on 8.

How can anyone who watched the AWA set forget this legendary guy?

I read PWI in 91/92 around the time Flair was in WWF. There was no internet. There were no adults around who knew anything about pro wrestling beyond the obligatory mention of "Big Daddy". Even though I'd watched wrestling since 89/90 sort of time and had tapes going back to 85, it was all WWF, who never mentioned or acknowledged any other promotions or any wrestler's pasts. So PWI basically taught me history. I had no clue about Flair's history before I read about it there. And it was around that time I stumbled on WCW TV showing at 1 a.m. With literally no other resources, the mags filled in so many blanks. Just picking up on comments made about certain guys here and there, I learned about a lot of things. WCW TV was a lot better at talking about history, so I got to know quickly, for example, that Arn Anderson was a legend in the tag ranks. When Flair came back to WCW in 93, I was watching and the mags had given me enough context to understand what a big deal he was. Kids from my school who didn't read the mags and only watched WWF, even to this DAY, only know Flair from that run in 92. Couple of years later, I somehow found this VHS tape in a car boot sale looking at the history of Starrcade. It was presented by Tony Schiavone and has a bit when he's in an empty studio next to a ring talking to Flair. That video was so invaluable to me at the time. I think it's easy to forget what things were like pre-internet. In terms of info, I was completely on an island. I still don't quite understand why the corner store in my town stocked PWI and other such mags, but I'm so grateful that they did.

One of the things Landrum mentions in that interview that I didn't know before, is that Crockett was already making expansion moves in 1979. They asked him to work shows in Georgia and they'd run Augusta and Savannah regularly. Landrum mentions that he didn't fancy travelling to Georgia and that he didn't want to step on Gordon Solie's toes either. I'm wondering how Crockett got away with that without pissing off the Georgia office?

While trying to find out stuff about Tom Miller, I stumbled upon the identity of this man. It's Rich Landrum. He actually replaced Miller and George Scott as the host of World-Wide in 1978 until early 1982. Interestingly, he would do the ring announcing at the Richmond shows. Really cool and informative interview with him on the Mid-Atlantic Gateway: http://www.midatlanticgateway.com/resourcecenter/interviews/landrum/landrum_01.htm

I've been digging around for more info on Tom Miller, which is very thin on the ground. I've managed to find a match with him and George Scott on commentary: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x96lf6_richard-blood-vs-charlie-fulton-geo_sport This is Tito Santana working as "Richard Blood" (Steamboat's real name) vs. Charlie Fulton. Dick Murdoch joins them on commentary after a minute or so. The show was called "Wide World" at this point and then was changed to "World-Wide" Miller seems like a very competent play-by-play man. Piecing together his background, it seems to me that Miller was sort of smaller-time Carolinas version of Kal Rudman. He was on local radio for years and had a show called "Truckin Tom". It is even mentioned in this 1985 Billboard newsletter, which calls his an "oldies show": http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4yQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT16&lpg=PT16&dq=Truckin+Tom+Miller&source=bl&ots=3xWSpX5nBr&sig=JdNw02uJo19CVLu8u3XXfsua0BU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0-62U8W6OZDG7AaVioHQDA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Truckin%20Tom%20Miller&f=false He was used as a commentator circa 76-78, but I think his ring announcing duties were a different deal. JCP used a lot of local DJs and celebs as their ring announcers in different towns, and Miller only ever really did Greensboro and VERY occasionally Atlanta (for example, he did the first War games at the Omni). On a side note: the ring announcer at The Omni half of Starrcade 85 remains a mystery to me. I floated the idea before that it was Rodger Kent, but no one corroborated that.

Wow, turns out Miller worked as a colour commentator and even co-hosted World-Wide in 1978: http://studiowrestling.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/truckin-tom-miller.html

I have special affection for Miller now because of the amount of times I've heard him say "This is a one-fall match, with a 60-minute time limit!" On the subject of Miller, has anyone ever corroborated my theory that he didn't work for Crockett but was an employee of the Greensboro Coliseum? I'm convinced that Miller was just an arena employee.

When I read the mags as a kid, I remember thinking in my mind that what I was seeing on WWF wasn't the whole truth and that "the real wrestling" was the stuff these magainzes were talking about.

I think I agree Matt.

Other than GMC, Fink and Tom Miller, is anyone else even in the conversation? I assume everyone hates Michael Buffer, as I do. Mike MGuirk seems like a kitsch / ironic choice. Dave Penzer is boring. I don't know who the ring announcers were for a lot of the territories. St. Louis had Mickey Garagiola. Did Boyd Pierce do it for Watts? There's the old dude with the sloooowwwwwwwwwwwwwww voice on 70s / early 80s WWF TV -- where Fink announces at MSG and GMC does the Philly shows, he is the ring announcer on the TV tapings. Very slow deliberate voice. I can never remember the guy's name. Who did AWA have? Was it basically just Okerlund? Georgia TV was notable for not having a ring announcer a lot of the time. Anyone else?

I've never really been clear as to what "smark" actually means. The term in my mind conjures up exactly the sort of Scott Keith-influenced attitude from late 90s internet rant websites that we've been discussing. In fact, the term "IWC" makes me think of that specific period too. It's specifically when the Monday Night Wars were going and more and more people were coming onto AOL and so on with their 56k dial-ups. I guess there was a time before that when jdw, Meltzer and Tim Berners-Lee were pinging each other snowflakes. Although I do prefer the image of Meltzer as being a guy who doesn't know how to use a computer and who still uses a typewriter.

What in particular is Dave's (and Williams's) problem with the terms IWC and "smark"? Why does the use of these terms make you a dumb shit? Anyone care to explain?

The recent discussion of Santos being undoubtedly the biggest Mexican wrestling star led me to question why Mil Mascaras had that spot for so many years in my mind. Then listening to an old podcast, someone mentioned in passing that few workers benefitted so much as being pushed by the Apter mags as Mil Mascaras. Tommy Rich was also mentioned. The one guy I think about in the Apter mags is Abdullah the Butcher who would seemingly almost always have a big spread of grusome and bloody looking photos in PWI from some promotion I couldn't ever dream of seeing. So who did the Apter mags push big? Whose rep was boosted massively by Apter and co?

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-64-clash-of-the-champions-15-knocksville-usa/ Episodes of WTBBP are a bit like buses, you wait ages for one to come along and then inevitably two come at once. Chad and Parv continue to plunge through the depths of 1991 WCW with a review of Clash of the Champions 15: Knocksville USA. Packed show this week. - [5:37] Wrestling Observer and PW Torch roundup: Chad hypes the PTBN TV character tournament, Superbrawl buyrates, Terry Funk in Quantum Leap, Meltzer's break down of booking philosphies from different promoters of the 70s and from 1991, and Chad and Parv discuss the significance of finishes. - [1:00:06] Review of Clash of the Champions 15: Greatest wrestling mysteries 101: what the hell is Cappetta doing on the phone?, PN News has the temerity to rap in front of Salt n Peppa, fantasy booking an El Gigante Midnight Rider angle, more Oz, The Diamond Studd, the winner of the Sting look-a-like contest, and The Bruise Cruise. - [2:27:08] End of show awards The PWO-PTBN Podcast Network features great shows you can find right here at Place to Be Nation. By subscribing on iTunes or SoundCloud, you’ll have access to new episodes, bonus content, as well as a complete archive of: Where the Big Boys Play, Titans of Wrestling, Pro-Wrestling Super-Show, Good Will Wrestling, and Wrestling With the Past.

I forgot to share the shot of my work Xmas Party from 2013. This was taken at 7.17pm:

This has only just struck me but could we say that Keith calling Taker "Lazy Taker" is his version of Junkfood Dog?

Very simple example being something like Meltzer using the fact that Dusty was the booking to influence his rating of a Dustin Rhodes match. His reviews from 1991 have been down on Dustin almost exclusively it seems because he's the booker's son.

And while we're on the topic, a real bugbear of mine recently is reviewers letting backstage stuff affect their ratings of matches. Meltzer does it sometimes, Keith does it always. I hate it, because the reviewer then uses it as a crutch to downgrade the match and the review becomes more about the backstage stuff, which really doesn't dictate how the thing is executed bell-to-bell.

I totally agree with that Loss.

I'm not sure Matt, because whenever I've listened to podcasts or read books and things produced by fans outside of the PWO bubble, not a lot seems to have changed really. And these are people hardcore enough to produce podcasts and / or write books. I won't name names.