JerryvonKramer

Alright... let's take a look at this... That's why The Destroyer wrestled a Bear in the 60s. Because bears took the field NFL games, played outfield in Major League Baseball, played for Matt Busby in the 60s, etc. Right... As far as characters and stories, that went back before Vince even promoted the business. Wrestling was entertainment back to the 20s. Don't be stupid and think otherwise. Pathetic attempt at a knockdown strawman argument that misses the fundamental through line of my argument. For a guy who is so clever, you seem to have tunnel vision when reading what other people say. I'll pull out the through line for you. I've tried to make it real simple for your semi-autistic brain. How in the hell can you read that and pull "oh what about wrestling bears" out of your arse? Well? How is a wrestling bear anything to do with the argument I've laid out? My argument is that he used these elements to popularise something that was marginal, and not in the mainstream media. You've turned it into "he injected entertainment into wrestling" Some classic jdw bullshit shifting of the goalposts to try to win an argument. If I was marking your post as a paper, I'd tell you to read what the source is saying. You haven't understood the argument. You haven't responded to the argument on its own terms. I'm told you have legal training. Objection your honour: Irrelevant or immaterial. You also seem to be fundamentally incapable of drawing a distinction between on the one hand, "who did it first", and on the other "who made it big with the idea". I talked about David Bowie and Lou Reed. We can think of countless examples in history of guys taking other people's ideas and making it big. But so what? Innovation is not invention. Innovation can be applying existing ideas in new ways or in new contexts or with a slightly new spin in order to create something different. In a business or sales context such innovation can give a company an edge. And in our capitalist system, what matters is not what or who came first, but who made it big with the idea. Vince was not an inventor, he was an innovator. He also made it big. This is not about All Japan Wrestling or how many people that house show in 1988 drew, it's about creativity -- something I've yet to see any evidence at all that you have an iota of understanding about. What is this meant to be? What does your argument gain by trying to run down my intelligence? You honestly think I'm a stupid, pig-headed dumb-fuck don't you. I tell you what, at least I'm not a man in my 40s (or is it 50s) making posts as juvenile and asinine as that. I get it, ok, you've been around a long time. You know a lot of shit. You met Meltzer. You made a bunch of conclusions about a bunch of things 10 years ago and think they are all correct. We all get it. Sometimes though knowledge and experience can't substitute for intelligence, imagination or personality. Sometimes it's possible that there is more than one way to look at a problem. Sometimes it's possible someone can see something that you can't. And you have blind spots jdw. Sometimes they are glaring. "Yeah but you're still an idiot Jerry" Well, think whatever you want. I am not one of these people who feels the need to prove anything. You are, by the way. Every post you make stinks of it. It's one of the reasons you're not very likable. However, at this stage, I'm just trying to be as civil as I can while putting forward my part of the argument. I'm aware that I called you tedious. Sorry, okay, I'm not my usual cheery self. I'll try not to say it again ok. You try not calling me a moron. Fair? Anyway, back to the topic: There are elements of this discussion you haven't addressed. A key part of my argument is wrestling "before and after" Vince. Your claim is that the only innovation is going national. I think that's demonstrably untrue, and patent nonsense. Your argument rests on saying "oh but there was national TV before ... DEMONT NETWORK" "Oh but there was entertainment before ... WRESTLING BEARS" "Let's just look at the facts ... FACTS" How about we also look at the product, and what was actually presented on TV. I pointed to Vince Sr's product. We can also look at the way guys like Sam Muchnick presented wrestling. I can't really understand the point of view that says "there was not a seismic shift in the way wrestling was presented between the 70s and the 80s". It's so obvious that there was a massive change that goes beyond simply "going national". It's more than simply "there was entertainment". I have to ask you: why are you so against giving credit in this area? What's the big problem with admitting that Vince McMahon changed some of the wrestling paradigms of the previous generation? I mean anyone with an ounce of sense can see it, why can't you? "Oh but there were wrestling bears and ... eh GORGEOUS GEORGE" Is that really what you're saying? That because there were entertaining elements in wrestling before Vince, we can't credit Vince with anything but going national? Has it ever occurred to you that the change in direction and the massive success are somehow linked? That things like the merchandising and the boom in gates are somehow linked? That the family-friendly entertainment-heavy product and 90,000+ at Wrestlemania 3 are somehow linked? Well? There's something known as a "stickiness" factor. You are one of those guys who sits there with his fingers in his ears just shouting "Ah but Hogan, ah but Hogan" over and over again. You attribute the success to 1. Vince had Hogan, 2. Vince went national. Maybe you just lack the imagination or the necessary understanding of social phenomena to see that it has to be more than just those two factors. Hogan is the product, "going National" is the strategic business move. But there is more required. Marketing. Packaging. And this is the key: - Getting people who don't watch wrestling and have never watched wrestling invested in the product. - How do you get KIDS talking about wrestling in the playground? - And this one is particularly special: How do you get people who've never even seen a show, to come to the show? That's the area in which Vince left the competition dead. I think your picture isn't fully fleshed out. It's an overly functional view of how things went down. It lacks nuance. It doesn't tell the full story because your approach in looking at the figures alone -- THE FACTS -- is one dimensional. I question your methodolgy. I question your ability to see the difference between the way something like Dory Funk Jr. vs. Jack Brisco was booked, and who it played to, and the way something like Wrestlemania 3 was built, and who that played to. I think you underestimate the shift and growth in demographic. It's not just numbers. It's not just taking territory, and stealing talent and fans. It's making new fans. It's turning people onto the show who'd never in a million years would have watched Backlund and co. But I seriously question your ability to see that because you seem to process things in a systemised and mechanistic way. It's a flaw in your thinking. Overly functional, hung up on numbers to the point where it blinds you to things that are patently obvious. I mean Jesus I can't look at the Star Wars shit, but franchises man. FRANCHISES. The way people think about making four movies now rather than just one. Some of this shit is so obvious it doesn't need to be pointed out, and yet somehow it seems to escape the great jdw. Why? Tunnel vision, eye on the prize. Must.Win.Argument.At.All.Costs. These aren't ad hominem attacks on you, it's just me trying to account for why you miss these glaringly obvious things all the time. ---------------------- This was long. Let me try to sum up this argument neatly and logically. I just want to be absolutely clear that I'm saying. I don't want any movement of the goalposts or smokescreens or strawmen. Argument 1: Vince McMahon changed the way wrestling was presented Premise 1: There was something about the way wrestling was presented before the 1980s that turned off the mainstream audience Premise 2: In the 1980s, people who didn't watch wrestling were turned onto watching the WWF Conclusion 1: Therefore, the WWF changed something about the way wrestling was presented to attract these new fans Premise 3: Although some of these new fans came from going national and invading other territories, it is not the case that the WWF simply took existing wrestling fans from every other region; they created new fans. Many of them were children. Premise 4: Although Hulk Hogan was integral to attracting these new fans, he was simply the product; as the promoter Vince McMahon was able to package him and the rest of his show in a way that optimised its 'stickiness factor' Conclusion 2: Therefore, the WWF's success in the 1980s is attributable to more than simply going national and having Hogan [Modus ponens P1, P2, C3, P3, P4, C2] Argument 2: jdw gives us an incomplete and mistaken view of Vince McMahon's impact on wrestling in the 1980s Premise 1: You can't get a handle on fundamental changes in presentation or understand social phenomena by looking at the numbers alone ("the results"); to understand social phenomena truly you need to look at the finer details: not only what ("the product"), but how (how that product is marketed, positioned and sold). Premise 2: jdw in the "Vince McMahon vs. The World" thread looked at numbers alone Conclusion 2: This gives jdw a one-dimensional view of the story that is blind to the finer details; his methodology produces an incomplete picture Premise 3: Innovation and invention are not the same thing Premise 4: jdw denies innovation by pointing to earlier examples, therefore he mistakes innovation for invention Premise 5: Vince McMahon was an innovator not an inventor Conclusion 2: Therefore, jdw mistakenly denies he was an innovator Conclusion 3: Therefore, jdw gives us an incomplete and mistaken view of Vince McMahon's impact on wrestling in the 1980s [Modus ponens P1, P2, C2, P3, P4, P5, C2, C3]

Chad, can you remember which matches we really loved Corny on and which ones we loved Funk on? They might both be on Starrcade 89 but I can't seem to remember anything these days.

Both Terry Funk and Jim Cornette have tremendous performances on colour during late 89-early 90.

Jesse Ventura and Tony Schiavone at Superbrawl III, Erik Watts and Marcus Bagwell vs. The Hollywood Blondes:

While I think Brain is mostly spot on in the premise of this thread, there was more cross-pollination in WWF than it might first appear, especially on the heel side of things. Take DiBiase, he was still sort of loosely allied with Heenan and with Andre even after the feud with Hogan / Savage was over. The WM5 run-in on Jake where he tries to steal Damian happens a full 9 months or so after him and Andre had any real storylines together and before his feud with Jake had started. Sticking with Ted, he had a loose alliance with Slick during this time: it was Slick who he bought the #30 ticket from at the Rumble, and it was again Slick he went to when he wanted to buy-off Bossman. At WM6, you get the neat moment where he has the match with Jake and then nails Bossman before his match with Akeem -- quite a bit of "cross issue" stuff going on for the era. Then in 1990, he sticks his nose into the Perfect / Texas Tornado feud and helps Perfect win the IC title despite not really being in a proper story-line feud with Tornado. And he was sort of "good mates" with Brother Love. So he was one character who had his own storylines but could act as a "bit-part player" in other people's stories. Just one example, but the heel side at times is more like a group of supervillains who are in league with each other, as I've argued before. Look at something like Macho King's coronation and who attends it. Just thinking about it there's also Rumble 90 where Savage and DiBiase are not in a storyline together but the angle is teased that Ted has paid Savage off for "help" during the Rumble. You kinda get these tacit alliances of evil with some (albeit limited) cross-over of issues. I am sure there are examples other than DiBiase, it's just the one (no jokes please ) that comes to mind most readily for me. Mostly though you are definitely right that guys are "railroaded" into their specific feud. You can see it most clearly with the tag division. Although I do think there is always one team who is given the subtle role of creating the illusion of depth. It might be the Islanders, the Rougeaus, the Bulldogs or whoever at different times, but they often kept one major team "fallow" with no real issues going on so they could have a match with a team in the title picture and the commentators could say something like "well, whoever wins this will move up the ladder and surely have to be considered title contenders", or whatever. You know what I mean right? I guess you'd call them a "team without portfolio", floating around filling out the division. I like this topic.

Some more contenders Nighthawk ...

I'm stepping out of this crap now, but before you go calling anyone else a moron remember that you're the guy sitting there telling us that Star Wars didn't change films and WWF didn't change wrestling. Jog on.

Possibly the most tedious man on the internet. I made an argument for how WWF changed wrestling here. The "one" major innovation was going national? Are you fucking serious? WWF was Smokey and the Bandit not Star Wars? What the flying fuck? What planet do you live on?

Paul Jones was booked quite strong in matches as a manager. I guess you can do that with former wrestlers to an extent. I actually thought Mr. Fuji could have done with being a tiny bit stronger in the Wrestlemania handicap match vs. Demolition. Probably one of your all-time psychological favourites Matt

Along those lines though, how about when they keep doing time calls and mentioning a certain time limit. So often that foreshadows it's going the full distance.

I know he's my boy but I always thought the Million Dollar Man's alternate white suit and white trunks circa 92-3 were really awesome. Can't find any decent pics. Speaking of 1993, contender for worst ring attire has to be this:

I love the way this thread was completely car-crashed. When I say "love", what I mean is that I'm completely non-plussed by it and actually a bit miffed. Never mind eh. What do we think of Burt Reynolds's role in Woody Allen's Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex But Were Afraid to Ask? I think it's great and a real highlight. What other great movies do you like? I like that bit in Airplane! with the inflatable pilot. How we all laughed. What's Bill Murray's best role? Caddyshack or Ghostbusters? What about Kingpin? Or one of his later team-ups with Wes Anderson? Yeah, I found this a bit annoying. The overlords are just too good to talk about wrestling these days.

[Warning: boring ratings theory below] I should mention, given that I'm generally accused of being completely arbitrary on the 1/4 star point, I switched to the letter system because after rating 100s of matches I found that I never once gave out ****1/4 or ***1/4 and then never **3/4, **1/4 or *3/4 or *1/4. So these grades are all redundant to my mind, they don't come up. For me the grades are just bands that represent certain things which help me order them. I don't need those steps in between. So as not to clutter up this thread, I've updated my key now with grade descriptors, so you can see my rationale. Maybe you should move back to stars though Chad cos it might get confusing for people. Me and you are closer than it looks even though it looks like we're a grade out all the time.

It reckon Ice Train won some arm wrestling matches clean. Another red flag is when you see something like a 6-man tag and it's something like Ric Flair, Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard vs. Dusty Rhodes, Magnum TA ... and ROCKY KING! I wonder who is taking the pin. Sometimes it's stupidly obvious like when Andre tags with SD Jones and stuff like that.

Yeah, I went and read your posts afterwards and they are actually more or less the same. You have to account that because you believe in the ****1/4 rating and other such aberrations, so your letter grades and mine are actually slightly out: where you say B+, I say B. I have no time for the 1/4 grades, you know that. It's either **** or ****1/2. Yes, I realise I go 3/4 though

As per usual, going in totally blind, not read any ratings but do have certain guys I'm looking out for from listening to various recent podcasts. Lucha 1.1 Satoru Sayama y Gran Hamada vs. Perro Aguayo y Baby Face (4/13/80) Here we go then. Nice big crowd. Pretty cool stiff opening to this. I could swear the commentators are speaking Japanese. Faces in the crowd are awesome. There's one guy in a suit that looks like he's been lifted straight out of an All Japan crowd and plonked in Mexico. I like the guy with the moustache who is wearing his hat at a jaunty angle. And the cop. So far, absolutely no concerns about getting into this, it's just pro wrestling. Interesting boots on Perro. I really like the dynamic that is developing here. Hamada and Perro seem to be the ones with real issues and Baby Face works like hired muscle doing a lot of the dirty work. There is a cool mix of brawling, matwork and throws on display which I can get into. Sayama moves like a cat, and I like that. I don't really understand what is happening with the falls at this stage, but it doesn't feel like it matters too much. What happened with the finish here? Going to rewind it to see if I can figure it out. Has to be that massive kick to the balls, instant DQ. Pretty hot opener. B Key for rough star-rating conversion, here Lucha 1.2 Andre the Giant & Cien Caras vs. Alfonso Dantes, Herodes y Sangre Chicana (1981) Andre's face looks oddly skeletal here in the pre-match interview. Oh, he's got a shiner. The camera starts zooming in and for a moment I thought it was going for a shot of "little Andre", but no they want to check out his massive hand. I am drawn to love whoever these interviewers are. Three on two handicap match here. The ref is channelling Uncle Fester. Big ass stuff from Andre to start. A lot of spots here to get over his SIZE and STRENGTH. A little gimmicky. Arm wrench by Chicana on Caras. So was Herodes the Lucha version of Hercules Herndandez? Big headbutt by Andre. Dantes in. Seres of big butt splashes by Andre. This situation where guys can seemingly come in and out without tagging is going to take some getting used to. This one has no real flow, still hasn't felt like it has got going. Dantes goes back to the arm on Caras. Andre takes over and now the faces start working Dantes's arm. Caras misses a dropkick. Herodes does some comedy punching on Andre's stomach before being thrown out of the ring. Comedy bump off Andre's ass by Chicana. Uhh ... so what happened with the finish here? He submitted to the bearhug by Caras? Random. Oh no, it continues. So that's fall number 1. 1-0 to Andre and Caras. Wasn't into this first fall. No flow. Far too disjointed. And gimmicky. So they can do regular tags too. FIP sequence now with the heels working over Caras. Chicana taunts Andre. Is that wise Sangre? Andre catches him and snaps him over his knee. Chicana holds one of his legs and the three heels hold Andre to give him some punishment. Not for long, Herodes gets tripped by Caras going for a shoulder charge. BLANTANT LOW BLOW REF! That's put Caras out of action for a while. 3 on 1 comedy stooges spot with Andre now. Andre sits on Herodes and the ref is very very slow on the count. Come on Fester! So what's that 2-0 now? Yes and the win. Andre bearhugs Chicana for good measure. Even allowing for the fact that 90% of this match was designed to get over the message of "this man is a giant", it was too all over the place for my tastes. D+ Lucha 1.3 Centurion Negro vs. Gran Hamada (2/14/82) Now hold the tape. Someone tell the ref it's vertical stripes for wrestling, he can't be much worse than Fester from the last match. He looks a hell of a lot like Lou Thesz if it's not him, but I feel like I'm seeing Thesz everywhere at the moment (see Titans 4 podcast fans). Negro controls with matwork to start. I am drawn to the dude wearing all black in the crowd sipping his coffee. He sees someone he knows across the way and gives them a "cheers" with the coffee. Awesome guy. That same Japanese fan seems to be back: he's wearing a scarf today and seems to have brought a hot date with him. Hamada finally breaks free only to fall prey to an arm wrench and a head scissors. I notice that several people in the crowd are drinking that coffee: there's a vendor at this arena making a killing somewhere. Cameraman is wearing a bright luminous yellow jacket. Fine moustache sir. Things heat up now and this has been a pretty compelling mat sequence from Negro. I say that, I spent most of the time looking at the crowd. It's enough to get him the first fall. Hamada has been out-wrestled so far. Negro goes back to the arm. Makes sense. Explosive dropkick by Hamada sends him bailing. I have to say, Negro has a great colour scheme going on with the yellow and black. Hamada takes over control now with some matwork of his own. Arm drag, Hamada eats a backdrop. Flying bodysplash from the second rope. Back suplex. That's enough for 1-1. Thought the matwork in this fall dragged. Pin felt like it came too soon. I hope the pace picks up for this third fall. Negro switches up now to focus on the leg for a bit. Double underarm suplex! Keeps it locked in and goes into a birdge. That was quite neat. Snapmare. NASTY variation on the chickenwing now. Now idea how to call what Negro is doing now but it looks painful. Couple of nearfalls now. Yet another crazy submission hold from Negro. This stuff is cool. Hamada takes a big backdrop to outside and Negro jumps out after him. Dropkick gets 2 but Hamada has hit foot on the rope. Another backdrop. Some awkwards spots now as Negro seems to fluff a buritto of some sort and then takes a strange bump to the concrete. Hamada dives out after him now. Huracanrana. Belly-to-back suplex. Still only 2. Negro comes back with a dropkick and a huracanrana of his own. Interesting bridging suplex now from Negro, risks pinning himself with that! Sunset flip from the top by Hamada gets the 3. Hmmm, I was hoping the third fall would heat up a bit more than that. I liked a lot of Negro's matwork here but he had some awkward moments in the high spots. Second fall wasn't very good. On balance ... B- Lucha 1.4 El Canek vs. Don Corleone (2/14/82) Bit of a career change for Don Corleone here. I'm saying the ref is definitely Lou Thesz now. He should know better than to wear that shirt. He's been good as a ref so far though. Love this venue and watching the nighttime fall on it. Lots of matwork early on here. Corleone controls mostly with a camel clutch and a reverse chinlock. The camera work is good here. Canek comes back with arm wrenches. Corleone seems to be going for a variation on the Texas Clover Leaf. Gets a bit argy bargy with Thesz. Canek hits a drop kick and a gutwrench suplex. Sick looking flying clothesline, elbow drop gets a 3. Canek did well do get the first fall after losing out to Corleone for most of it. Abdominal stretch by Canek now. Works the arm now with knee drops. Match meanaders a bit here. Piledriverrrr? No, something else (no idea how to call it). Unusual. Backdrop by Canek. Big Ernie Ladd legdrop get a 2. Corleone comes back with kicks and punches now. Really stiff looking right. Dropkick. Butterfly suplex! That gets 1-1. I didn't think Canek's matwork in that second fall was much cop and I can't tell if that piledriver thingy was planned or a botch. Corleone starts the third fall with a running knee. Razor's Edge? No, a very very painful looking stretch. Surfboard now. Canek starts to bridge out of it. Corleone goes back to a type of camel clutch. Leg grapevine thingy now. I am hopeless at calling matwork, I don't know the names of any moves ok. Gorilla press slam by Canek now and he starts a comeback. Big dive to the outside. Then he takes a backdrop. The outside is not concrete but wood!! Planks of wood! Corleone slams Canek from the top now and hits a splash for 2. Atomic drop. 2 count. German suplex by Canek for the finish. Hmmm, there were positives here. Corleone did some cool shit during his matwork. I thought Canek's matwork was boring. Some good bombs. Once again, the third fall didn't pick up enough for my tastes. I want a hotter finish. About the same as the last match. Good but not great. B- Lucha 1.5 Tatsumi Fujinami vs. El Canek (6/12/83) This ref didn't get the memo about the diagonal stripes. Matwork in the first fall felt like it drifted. I honestly don't think El Canek is a very compelling matworker. Too tentative for too long this first fall. Abdominal stretch by Canek. "He has it hooked in real good too" [/Monsoon] Dull, dull, dull this stuff by Canek. Fujinami hits a slam and a dropkick. Misses a second and Canek gets an elbow for 2. Two AMAZING elbows from Canek gets the 3 for the first fall. Well that was awesome but the 10 minutes before it were like watching paint dry. Second fall and early on Fujinami hits an inzuguri. High vertical suplex ("Brainbuster! brainbuster!"). Back suplex gets 3. That was short. Third fall and my expectation now is that we don't get a change up in the gears. Last two matches had no discernable change of pace for the third fall or move from matwork to strikes and throws. Let's see. Test of strength to start. Canek starts with the armwork. Butterfly suplex! Gets a weak 2. Fisherman suplex! Gets a two. He didn't bridge into the pin a la Hennig but rolled over to a lateral press. Head scissors from Canek now. I may need to retrain myself. I want to see progression from matwork to strikes to throws, but they don't work like that. He just did two suplexes which got two nearfalls went right back to the matwork. Deep abdominal stretch by Fujinami now. Reverse chinlock. I still want them to pick things up a bit in this stage in the match. Figure-four by Canek. Fujinami quickly makes the ropes. Big vertical suplex by Canek. Fujinami is still selling the leg from the figure four. He starts busting out the strikes now. Hits a one-legged dropkick. Canek blocks him to the outside. Dives after him. Just as the match gets going, it slows down again. This is a bit too stop-start. What happened there? Canek wins? Why? Fujinami must have been DQed but for what? This one meanadered too much for me. Canek's matwork is average at best although he does some cool suplexes and those elbows were awesome. Honestly a bit confused by the finish. C+ Lucha 1.6 Kevin von Erich, Mascara Ano 2000 y Halcon Ortiz v. Coloso Colosetti, Pirata Morgan y Herodes (9/23/83) Kevin von Erich and Herodes to start. What has Halcon got written across his ass? Why is Mascara Ano called "2000"? Did he have like a futuristic gimmick? Was he a Terminator before Terminator? I guess we can only speculate. Colosetti has the best facial hair of anyone so far. He looks cool and villainous, like he'd take you out with a rapier and swoosh his cape as he leaves. Oh yes, the match ... Early exchanges do a good job of introducing everyone. Awkward exchange between Ortiz and Morgan. Colosetti's little "charge" thing cramps the style established by his cool goatee. I am getting more used to the idea that when someone leaves the ring, it's like tagging out. But it's still quite chaotic and hard for me to keep track of what is going on. First fall comes seemingly out of nowhere. I do like how heelish the heels are here, especially Colosetti. They get von Erich isolated and work him over. Snapmare by Heredos. Triple teaming. Colosetti with some kicks. Kevin wins back advantage. Where the hell are his partners? Ortiz takes on Morgan now. Neckbreaker! Bodyslam. That gets 3. Colosetti posts Kevin. And the heels heel it up to draw some heat. "Three Kings of the Mountain". Kevin posts Colosetti's leg. And now the faces have control of the ring. Ortiz and Andre 3000 get in the refs face now. Ortiz finds himself in the wrong corner but Pirata acidentally knees Colosetti on the apron. He posts his shoulder and Ortiz throws him out and dives after him. Herodes and T-1000 take over. Kevin hits a flying cross body on Colosetti for a piss-poor third fall. There's a theme with these third falls being a bit disappointing now. Some nice dynamics here. The heels all looked good and played their roles well. C+ Lucha 1.7 MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana (9/23/83) First look at MS-1 here. Chicana is bloodied almost immediately after MS-1 suckers him before they even get into the ring. Fierce brawling now. MS-1 is really intense. He weirdly reminds me a bit of Paul Orndorff at his absolute best the way he's laying in the kicks and stomps. There's a real desperation about the way he's working. Big splash from the top by MS-1 for the first fall. Massive punch on Chicana's bloodied head. Knee to the face. He's just a bloody mess at this point. Turnbuckle. Head smash into the edge of the apron. Headbutt. A woman in the crowd smokes a cigerette. Chicana gets in his first offense for about 10 minutes and the crowd go apeshit. Big "Chicana" chant. He's still somewhat out of it and his face is a bloody mess. Second fall via count out? The moment when he starts the comeback is amazing, they built to it so well. Third fall and where can this match go from here? MS-1 swings and misses. Chicana jabs him. MS-1 is now totally covered in blood himself. Big dive to the outside from him onto Chicana. Both men look half dead by this point. Dropkick by Chicana. Big dive by him now. Back in and Chicana is hanging from the top rope just to keep himself up. MS-1 looks like he's lost a pint of blood. The ring is just a total mess. Chicana barely gets across to cover for 2. Bodyslam by MS-1. Goes for the big splash from the top again but misses. Chicana covers again. 2 count! MS-1 covers. 2 count. Half a suplex from MS-1. Misses a somersault from the top now! Big submission hold from Chicana now. He's shaking his head. Submission? Yes. Chicana is so out of it he can barely stand up. Pretty awesome match. Chicana's sell job throughout is pretty amazing. He's caught on the hop right out of the gate and never quite recovers. He's almost out of it from the start but somehow finds it from somewhere to fight on. MS-1 is just a sick, desparate man doing what it takes. This is sent over the top for me by the way it built to the moment of that comeback from Chicana. Post-match MS-1 has to suffer the humilation of losing his Terry Taylor locks. A*

Doug Somers! I think a journeyman has to truly be a journeyman. No Greg Valentine post-85 shit, it has to be like a Bob Roop or a Somers or a guy like that plying his trade for many different promotions over a long period. Buzz Sawyer would probably count. Cuban Assassin. Fake Kendo Nagasaki (aka Dragon Master). Jos LeDuc. Guys with really odd things on their CV along the lines of "He had a spell working New Zealand and is a big name in the Dominican Republic". Classic journeyman-type background.

Choices, choices. Can either continue this discussion about the films of Burt Reynolds or dig into the Lucha set which arrived today ... To bring back an old topic, I too would like to know what Will thinks of Bill Watts as an announcer. Boyd Pierce feels like a total waste of space to me, but right now I reckon Watts was arguably better than Jim Ross in that time frame as an announcer. Any thoughts?

Probably Deliverance is the best Reynolds movie.

Well this is interesting.

Sting trusts Luger / Flair / anyone (delete as appropriate)

This was positively educational, I really like Kurt as an annual guest you have on to talk HoF. Look forward to next episode and HOLY SHIT YES "Journeyman Hall of Fame"!!!! Race you to episode 50

I feel like MMA has ruined what was once a great hypothetical discussion.

Johnny's best impression by far is Lou Albano, 100% match. His Blassie is good too.

If I was going to work out some sort of criteria for comparison it would be something like: - Match quality ("no. of great matches") - Booking quality (long-term storylines, specific angles, character building stuff) - Presentation (everything from announce teams to camera work to entrances) - Key workers (bit of a fugde category but this covers stuff like your promos and general non-match specific traits of the rosters) If I had to dish out ratings then: JCP is on 100 Match Quality, 70 for Booking, 60 for presentation, 95 for workers. WWF is on 60 match quality, 90 for booking, 100 for presentation, 85 for workers. MSW probably 85 match quality, 90 for booking, 85 for presentation, 80 for workers Something like that. I would disagree with you strongly on those JCP rankings. When you add up the final tally on the JCP matches, they might end up with the best wrestling product. However, you sat through a whole lot of nothing some months just to get one good marquee match on TV. Watts was presenting marquee matchups week in and week out since 1983 through 1987. WWF would have a lot of squashes on their syndicated tv but no more than JCP. The Prime Time show also had more featured matchups than JCP even when Superstars was squash city. If presentation takes announcers into consideration, I don't see how JCP gets a 60. I loved the Tony and David team. Watts always had the weakest announce teams of the three. It's not just announcing, it's camera work, it's how the whole package is presented. I love Tony and David too. If it was announcing alone, it would be damn close. But JCP production values, camera work, and so on are not stellar. It's a constant talking point for Meltzer and there are many moments where they make basic errors in TV production that make them seem "bush league". I didn't put a great deal of thought into these numbers, maybe the MSW rating for production is a bit high. As for the "match quality" rating, it's not a barometer for overall week-to-week consistency, but a flat calculation based on TOTAL NUMBER OF GREAT MATCHES. I put JCP over the top because they have the greatest number of great matches. Not very sophisticated. Sometimes though goodhelmet, I'm being a bit of an agent provocateur with slightly off-hand posts like that one. Are these metrics the right metrics? If not, which ones are right and why? Are these ratings the right ratings and if not, why? I am not sure what metric "week-to-week consistency" would be, or how you reward that vs. total number of great matches. Something to talk about.