JerryvonKramer

Magnum didn't push Tully over as if he was a feather either. There's a difference between working with hatred and intensity and just being a douchbag. I think Shawn was just being a douchbag. That spot aside, you seem puzzled by Shawn spitting on Somers, and all the other "heel" things he did. If The Rockers treated two jobbers on TV like that, then yes...that's fucked up. But treating two scumbags who have done worse to them like that is "just desserts" No, I totally disagree. Shawn was being a total dick in that match. Not in a way that said "hatred" but in a way that said "look at me, I'm so much better than these guys". In a way that reminded me of Road Warrior Hawk at his douchey selfish bad worst. I hate that shit and no arguments can sell me on it any other way. Shawn didn't do it in any of the other matches, so maybe he was high on coke that night or something but that doesn't excuse it. He was a total cock.

Boris Zukhov vs. Leon White White a lot more Vaderish here. Once again, Zukhov is pretty good on offense. I don't know if it's just the matches that made this set, but he's a mini-revelation on this set consider JUST.HOW.SHIT he was in WWF. As I say that he does quite a rubbish-looking bearhug. Vader powers out. Takes a knee to the gut. Zukhov has used that massive head as a weapon effectively throughout this match. Really good stuff from him. Vader has taken a lot of punishment to the "bread basket" and Boris has targetted that area quite well. He should do an abdominable stretch now. Oh my god! He actually did one! That's amazing. Zukhov the fucking scientist. Vader takes over on offense now and he's got shades of his future badassery here. The stiff shots in the turnbuckle. The splashes. And Zukhov is selling this stuff reasonably well. B Probably the best Boris Zukhov performance of all time. Insanely high quality for this disc.

I look forward to reading that Matt. Once I'm done with this disc, I'll read the thread to see what has been said too. Very interested to see Chad's views on this because I have a funny feeling he'll be the one other guy who also thinks the second cage match is better. Rose/Somers vs. Rockers (final) The heel control segement during this is pretty good. Some excellent selling from Michaels. After the two cage matches it's quite hard to concentrate during this one. It's also after 5am here, which must be contributing. I quite like the darkness of the arena here. This FIP sequence is really long, but some great offense from Rose and Somers. Piledriver! Superplex! This is probably the best Shawn Michaels performance on the set, excellent almost Ricky-Morton-level FIPing here. Big title win! Very good finish. This was a classic southern tag with a great finish. A-

Magnum didn't push Tully over as if he was a feather either. There's a difference between working with hatred and intensity and just being a douchbag. I think Shawn was just being a douchbag.

Rose/Somers vs. Rockers (cage 2) Sherri looks like a meringue here. Heels trying to keep the faces out is hilarious. Gosh, Rose's big fat white ass. The shine sequence is worked a lot "cleaner" here than in the last match. And we get a quick transition as Rose slingshots Shawn into the cage. The visual of him covered in blood is insane. HEEL Michaels with a low blow! Hot tag to Jannetty. Rose does a lot more of the bumping for the heels in this match. Cheesegrater. We get a transition to a second face in peril section. "Double heat" structure fans. Big comeback from Shawn now. Flapjack. Sherri is crying. Rose with the comeback attempt again. Slugfest on the top of the cage. Somers batteringrammed into the cage! Great finish. This is a much better match for me than the last one. Fewer structural problems, more involvement from Rose in general, Shawn was better behaved and sold his ass off, the blood was insane. I can understand why Will, Johnny P and Sorrow will all put the St. Paul match higher. It's more immediately accessible, it feels more brutal and visceral, it came first -- but I think this one will stand up better to "repeated plays", and it stands up much better to real scrutiny. Let me make an ill-judged and wildly inaccurate analogy: that St. Paul match is like Bowie's Hunky Dory - great album, most people listening to it are going to think it's amazing ***** etc., but it's got some shitty tracks on there (Kooks anyone? Song for Bob Dylan? Fill Your Heart?). This match, this is like Station to Station or Low or something. It might not floor you straight away or have the immediacy of Hunky Dory, but it's the better album. This was really good. A

Rose/ Somers vs. Rockers (cage) So is Billy Robinson just a full time ref now? Shawn Michaels's punches are great in 1986. This seems to be mirroring the structure of Final Conflict so far with the super-extended shine sequence to start with Somers as Don Kernodle. I don't like the arrogance with which Michaels is working this. He's done it twice now, throwing the heels to the floor with a little push as if a feather would send them over. I'm really not sure about that. If that was Road Warrior Hawk EVERYONE would be on his case for it. Almost like he's treated them like jobbers. Rose is in, finally a transition now? No, Jannetty kip up. Rockers are both working with a lot of brutality here, but they haven't given the heels anything at all yet. Still time though. I really have a problem with the way Shawn Michaels is working this match. He's far far too cocky and heelish. Spitting and nonchalently punching Somers as if he's a piece of shit. Not keen on that at all. Finally, Rose comes back. There, we get a transition. STOMP on Shawn's face. Good. DDT! Good. Somers in. Shawn eats more cage. Good. Stomers stomps a hole in his head now. Good. Cheesegrater action on Shawn's face now. Good. He fucking deserves it. Suplex. Rose in. MASSIVE backdrop from Rose onto the cage. I've really enjoyed this since the heels took over. Shawn starts making the comeback now. Just a hope spot. Cut off. Hot tag. Jannetty a house of fire. Big powerslam. Rose escapes the cage! No. He's dangling on top now. Big bump. There's the pin. This is very good. -------------- I think it maps onto Final Conflict exactly with 3 crucial differences: 1. The faces are brutal from the get go. I know Chad's criticism of Final Conflict is that it took Steamboat and Youngblood an age to use the cage and they were doing technical moves like arm drags rather than ramming heads. But as I've argued with Chad before: the shine sequence on Kernodle both establishes that they are goody-two-shoes faces and builds up to the big moment when he finally eats the cage. Here, in the first 10 minutes, The Rockers just fucking destroyed Rose and Somers, battered them. And I think it's less effective than the similar shine sequence in Final Conflict. 2. Shawn Michaels is a total dick in this match, in a heelish way This really brings the first half of the match down for me. I mean, enough for me to deduct a grade. What was he doing? I don't like faces treating heels like chumps. It's a MASSIVE problem I have with Flair vs. Hogan from 94, that Hogan treats Flair like a jobber. There's working on top, and then there's taking liberties. I thought Shawn took liberties with two very giving, generous opponents here who were making him look a million dollars. Why be an asshole on top of that when you're meant to be the babyface? Real downer for me that. 3. Slaughter does an insane holy shit bump. So here, Rose was our Slaughter and for a moment I thought we were going to get a similar holy shit bump from him. We sort of did, but not on that level. --------- So based on all of that, I have to rate this below Final Conflict which I have at ****1/2 (A-). So on that basis: B+ Seems low, given how awesome parts of this are, especially the heel control segement, but the Shawn stuff really pissed me off and I think they went to the cage too early, so the match had nowhere to go or build to. I'd happily put this on a compilation of "cage matches to see before you die", but it does have problems.

Bock vs. Hennig Not sure what to do with this one. I feel like it's being unreasonably penalised for coming after the hour long. Forgive the analogy, but why can't this be the Wrestlewar to the hour-long's Clash 6? Thought the work was really strong, and Hennig's really growing as a character now. I disagree with Will, think this one is way up there and should finish top 10 for me. A

Larry Z vs. Bock Really enjoyed the last sub-5 minutes match, this could be great. Bock is nailing Zybysko here. Love watching Larry's head bounce off the turnbuckle. Piledriver! Still think Zybysko is like Bockwinkel Jr. Bock smashes Zybysko on the table. His selling is great. Bock's brutality is amped to the max. Zybysko uses the bell to nail Bock now! This has been high quality. This ref looks like a mini-Andre! I REALLY enjoyed this. Excellent match. Possible top 10 contender. A-

Before starting this next batch, I just want to note that Prince is awesome. I don't think Prince gets the props he deserves from the hipster kids. They love the 80s but the sort of 80s they love is snyth-driven electronica, stuff like Depeche Mode. Now, I've got a lot of time for Depeche Mode, but where's the love for Prince you posing Shoreditch wankers? Anyway ... Debeers vs. Blackwell Now, already, how the hell are these two going to have a ladder match? Or rather, how the hell is injured, diabetic Jerry Blackwell going to have one? Blackwell is really fat here. This is cool. The shots into this ladder are really nasty. Splash by Blackwell on the floor outside is amazing. Big slam by Blackwell. Ouch! Debeers's face smashed on the edge of the bottom of the ladder. Holy shit! Blackwell is climging the ladder. What the flying fuck! Massive bump from Debeers. I really enjoyed this for what it was; should do well. B+

Rose/Somers/Sherri vs. Rockers/Another woman Starts off at a fast pace. The other woman has a nicer ass than Sherri. So has Shawn actually. Probably Marty too. Going to stop short at Rose and Somers. There's a camera woman there too, but we don't get to see her ass. Rose and Somers have cut the ring off nicely here. I'm guessing this is Wrestlemania VI mixed-tag rules. Jannetty on fire! What? So the men can hit the women here? ha ha Nice suplex by Rose. Slingshot. Sherri from the top. Misses. Pretty good match this. The other woman is in. Pretty good. Sling shot! Clothesline! What the fuck! Marty is spanking Sherri now? Fun match. B-, taking away a grade for questionable gender politics. See me.

I've had to take a time out to gather my thoughts here. I'm too tired and congested to form a cogent thought right this second, but my point isn't to slam the match. I love the match. My point is that like the AJPW Set the end result really isn't even in doubt and without a "race for one" my interest in that aspect of things is unusually low considering the fact that I worked on this set. Dylan, on this point, I think the race for second is VERY interesting on this set. While (at least in my view) there is only one ***** "best match of 80s contender" type match on the set, I do think there is a real shit ton in the ****1/2 - 3/4 range. I can see guys putting Bock vs. Wahoo at #2, I can see people putting one of the Hansen matches at #2, I can see people putting Rose/Somers vs. Rockers at #2. I can see people putting that Sheiks/Adnan vs High Flyers cage match at #2. DVDR is down so I can't verify this, but I really think the race for #2 is wide open.

A pint of Pepsi Max with ice and a squeeze of lime, a bowl of "Sensations Mexican smoked chilli peanuts", and four Americans talking in my ear about something they call "The Super Bowl" -- all the preparation I need for an hour long match ... The analysis of the front row early on is great by the way. I like the fact we see the guy in the grey coat and the black guy talk. Midget and Grandma is classic stuff too. "Little Matt D" genuine lol KrisZ's JCP analysis is great. I regret that we never had him on our show when we covered 86-7. Glad that Johnny Sorrow and Will broadly agree with my take on Ron Garvin too. If KrisZ ever does come on WTTBP it'll be 7-hour special as I ask him endless questions until he falls asleep, loses his voice or flies over here to knock me out. Bockwinkel vs. Hennig (hour-long match) Early matwork by Bock is very tight and worked in the manner he worked Robinson in All Japan. Curt's armwork is less interesting for me -- it feels like he is not that interested in it to me, that he'd prefer to be trading strikes or throws. Bock takes over and starts working the leg. I like the gradual transition around the body here during this extended mat-based seuqence: 1. Head/neck 2. Arm 3. Leg Bock's face as he pulls on Curt's foot is priceless. The level of struggle during this sequence is great and Hennig is selling the hell out of this leg now. I think Bock might be my favourite mat worker. Big ref bump now. Curt goes back to the arm. We're gradually transitioning from matwork to impact moves and strikes now. Curt is using the post more and more. His movements get a bit more Mr. Perfect-y. Big stiff reverse knife edges. Piledriver! Bock comes back with a back suplex. Good stuff this. The match has gone through the gears in the way I like it to: 1. Matwork 2. Strikes 3. Throws That's my favourite progression for a long match. Time for: 4. Hot, heated finishing sequence Curt has colour now and Bock goes straight in with GREAT punches to attack the cut. GREAT axe bombers from Hennig. Bock is covered in Hennig's blood. Another big forearm from Curt. Figurefour! Look at Hennig's face! A*, probable number 1. "Best match of the 80s?" talking point: I think this belongs "in the conversation". From the 80s JCP/NWA I've seen, I'm thinking about where it would go in the top 20 ... I'd put it below Tully/Magnum "I Quit" and Flair vs. Steamboat, Clash 6 for sure. However, beyond those two, I really have to think about how I'd rank this vs. the other two Steamboat matches, Flair-Funk GAB89 and my favourite Flair-Garvin match. Also thinking about high-end All Japan. Below Jumbo vs. Tenryu and the Yatsu tag, but again beyond that I really have to think. So against my (provisional) JCP and All Japan rankings, it's got a real shot at the number 3 slot on both lists. Right now, I'm prepared to say I'd probably put it over the Wrestle War Flair-Steamboat: What it has going for it over Flair-Steamboat (Wrestle War): - Structure - Excellent matwork - Blood What it has going against it vs. Flair-Steamboat (Wrestle War): - Intensity from the get go. Flair vs. Steamboat is worked at 100 miles an hour and what it loses in logic and structure, it gains in sheer adrenaline and excitement. - Massive stiff chops, woooo! Beyond that I really have to think. With DVDR down, I actually can't remember what I had at #3, #4 and #5 for All Japan. I'm pretty sure the Funk retirement tag match was #4 - this would be above that. #3 I'm completely blanking on. ----- On thing that has come out of this set is that in my mind Bock is absolutely a GOAT-level worker. People talk about Hansen for GOAT, what about Bock! We've seen him work a dozen different styles, different types of matches, different of opponents, and he's never been less than tremendous in any of them. And, he has cool hair and a nice tan.

If it comes to it, you can easily save threads by using the "Print Thread" view option --> Edit --> "Select all" --> Copy --> Paste into word file. A lot of work but really 1. it wouldn't take that long. 2. many of the people who take part in the 80s Project are insanely obsessive. It's just text data at the end of the day. We might not be able to save it in forum format, but it should be possible to save it.

I agree with the view outlined by soup earlier in this thread re: Jannetty becoming a singles star although "upgraded Robert Gibson" might be a little strong. However, the main problem Jannetty had in his career is that he never transferred from the Rockers look. Even in WCW he was still dressing like a Rocker. This is also why the Rock n Roll Express and The Fantastics faded in the 90s. That was a fad that had a moment in which it was over 85-88 in Crockett and everywhere else, 89-91 in WWF, and then a moment beyond which it was hopelessly uncool. Change the gimmick. This picture tells you everything you need to know: By 93, he should have moved on to a new look. Here he is on Nitro in 98-99: Come on dude, it's 1999 now! Say what you want about drug problems, his build, his ability and all the rest of it, that's the reason Jannetty wasn't able to transition higher up the card.

El-P, I was once banned from a wrestling forum because in their general chat thing on New Year's Eve of 2009, I posted this. I got an instant ban with the reason that "posts about politics are banned". I had no idea. Pretty harsh I thought, I had like 3,000+ posts, I'd have hoped they'd have cut me some slack or something. It was my first and last non-wrestling related post there and it was scarcely about politics. I literally got banned for making a really tame George W. Bush joke in 2009. Oh well, I probably wouldn't have found this place if that hadn't have happened. Now all that has to happen is for Loss to ban me for making this post.

Loss, is there any chance at all of "porting" the 80s Project stuff over to here? Has anyone got an archive of it? I honestly am a PWO guy not a DVDR guy, that much is obvious, but the thought of losing all the posts in the 80s project sickens me. There must be a way of retrieving that stuff before it is too late. Hell, I'd cut and paste each and every thread into notepad if it meant keeping a record of it. Also, and more selfishly, how will I complete my AWA rankings now?

I really dig KC - especially the Time line series. RF is terrible, haven't seen many High spots shoots. Really in a lot of cases the wrestler can over come RF's shittiness and make for a fun shoot. In my experience the High Spots guys, unlike the worst of the RF ones, aren't always tremendously eager to fastforward to WWF. They are happy to spend lots of time in early periods in guys' careers. And not just in the 13-hour Flair one either.

Rose vs. Jannetty A lot of entertaining stalling from Rose to start followed by quite a long shine sequence for Marty. This one has taken an awful long time to get going. Some very slow drawn out matwork here. A good 15+ minutes we're still on abdominal stretches. Wow, Shawn slapped Jannetty in the face to wake him up! Seems to have worked, we get some fire now. Buddy cuts it off by slamming him from the top, but misses an ass splash. Very disappointing match for me this. Long and mostly boring. C-

KrisZ and Childs together is pretty great. Rose/ Somers vs. Gagne/ Snuka Particularly long extended shine at the start of this one. And while Somers sells the stuff the faces are doing pretty well, it's dull stuff in the main. Later in the match Greg Gagne's slaps on Somers are good. I think in general Greg has declined from his Highflyers days, however. This one didn't do a lot for me. C-

Bruiser - who are your fave shoot interview team? KC, RF or High Spots? Or someone else?

So reading on, everything I might have said has already been said by Loss and El-P. Quote of the month. My view, rather pessimistically, is that wrestling is irretrievably broken.

Listening to this just now. Quite interesting. Had to pause it because Meltzer just said something that made me smile given the insane heated debate we had on here about it. "Watts had a great product but he couldn't draw with it because he was number 3 and people don't want number 3" I know this is different from the argument I adopted in that thread ("it was a combination of external factors"), but at least it's another guy who argees with me that it's not always "the product" that is to blame for the failure of any promotion. More to say on this in a moment because for all his bluster and for all the things he gets wrong, I do think Cornette still talks sense on some things.

I can't think of another example off-hand, but the principle remains the same.

Yeah, I figured that 80s Piper is good. This thread was chiefly meant to be for post-86 babyface Piper.