JerryvonKramer

The MTV roster Announcers: Chris Cruise Tazz Backstage interviewer: Miss Elizabeth AWA Commissioner: Tune in next time to find out! Road Agents: Bob Armstrong Referees: Bill Alfonso Jerry Calhoun Stables: The Samoans led by Lou Albano: Afa Sika Fatu Samu Kokina Maximus (aka Yokozuna) The Boombox Brothers: Butch Reed (leader) Big Daddy V 2 Cold Scorpio 2 Fly Gemini (Norman Smiley) Soulman SD Jones The Orient Express: Pat Tanaka Akio Sato Yakuza (Akira Maeda) The Upper Crust: Lord Steven Regal Lord Alfred Hayes Lord Jerry von Kramer Singles: Adrian Street Chris Benoit Chris Jericho Dave Finaly El Dandy Ken Shamrock Matt Borne Mike Awesome Owen Hart Ricky Morton Rob Van Dam Robbie Brookside Sabu (with The Sheik) Scott Hall Shane Douglas Sid Vicious Steve Austin The Druid (aka Tatanka) The Extremist (aka Doug Furnas) The Patriot The Sandman Jobbers: Curtis Thompson DJ Peterson Iron Mike Sharpe Randy Rose Rip Oliver Outlaw Ron Bass

AWA Championship Wrestling, May, Week 2, 91: Solie: Welcome everyone to AWA Championship Wrestling. It is my pleasure to introduce our newest colleague here at the AWA, Mr. Bob Caudle. Caudle: Why thank you Gordon, and gee it's a pleasure to be here. Solie: Of course, Mr. Caudle has tremendous experience in broadcasting on pro wrestling television, and he's been contracted to assist Chris Cruise on our MTV show. *Loud rap music plays over the tanoy system, and a voice booms out over it. A figure emerges holding a microphone.* Tazz: Hold on, hold on. Just wait a minute OLD MEN! Solie: What is the meaning of this? Who ARE you? Tazz: There's going to be some changes around here. My name is TAZZ. And ... I am the new co-host of wrestling on MTV! As a matter of fact, I have signed an exclusive deal with President Nick Bockwinkel, and there's going to be no more of your OLD MAN wrestling on MTV from now on! Solie: Now wait just a minute young man ... Caudle: Why Gordon, what's he talking about? Tazz: There's gonna be no more of this "Lou Thesz this, Jack Brisco that". We're taking over wrestling on MTV!!! Solie: Who is this "we"? Tazz: From now on, there's going to be a separate BRAND. I have exclusive rights to the AWA MTV FRANCHISE! Solie: What is the meaning of this? Caudle: What about my new job? Tazz: You're going to have to find something to do here on ESPN, old man. *Nick Bockwinkel walks out looking pleased with himself* Caudle: Mr. Bockwinkel, please, what IS going on? Bockwinkel: The young man is right. I've been talking to the bosses at MTV and it is felt that the youth want something want a more "edgy" product on their screens. Myself and the AWA board of directors have been working covertly day and night in order to find the right talent with the right vision to present Sunday Night Wrestling on MTV. And this young man, "Tazz", as he is known, has won the contract. Sunday Night Wrestling on MTV remains under the auspicies and jurisdiction of the American Wrestling Alliance, its official sanctioning body. However ... for all intents and purposes, it is now an independent body, its own entity with exclusive events, wrestlers and championships. Caudle: Why ... I ... Tazz: I can exclusively reveal the NEW logo for Sunday Night Wrestling on MTV!! *He holds up a sign with the new logo on it* Bockwinkel: This has some ramifications across the AWA. First of all, the current Television Champion, Lord Steven Regal is from this moment the "MTV Heavyweight Champion". He will defend that belt exclusively on MTV. There will also be a match on Sunday night, between the two highest ranked teams, to crown the MTV Tag Team Champions! Those belts will also be defended exclusively on MTV. The current AWA World Tag Team champions, Rick Martel and Tito Santana will continue to defend their belts here on AWA Championship Wrestling, and indeed at events across the world. But TONIGHT, I have with me here, the AWA World Title -- which has not been active since Ricky Steamboat defeated Andre the Giant to unify the AWA and WWA world titles to become the first AWA Universal Champion. I am hereby re-instating this great belt, which I held myself on four occasions. There will be a BATTLE ROYAL. And the winner of this special event will become the new AWA World Heavyweight Champion! This belt will then be defended on AWA Championship Wrestling. Ricky Steamboat remains the AWA Universal Champion, and will continue to defend that belt across the world. As AWA Universal Champion, Ricky Steamboat is the only superstar permitted to wrestle on both AWA Championship Wrestling AND Sunday Night Wrestling on MTV. This is the privilege of the Universal champion. Indeed, he is able to defend the belt in ANY promotion across the world, as he has done in the past month. Solie: Nick Bockwinkel, these are extraordinary proclaimations. Historic. Bockwinkel: Indeed they are Mr. Solie. But there are some other changes, you see. Since I am the new President of the AWA, the vacant position of VICE President of the AWA has been filled by ... Mr. Bill Watts! Bill, come out here. Watts: Why thank you Nick. I'm honoured to be the new Vice President of the AWA. Bockwinkel: Since I am a very busy man, Mr. Watts will see to the day-to-day affairs here on AWA Championshp Wrestling. Bob Caudle will take over the co-hosting duties since Mr. Watts is now responsible for many areas of administration. Although, if he so chooses, he may still appear in the booth from time to time. I have also appointed an AWA COMMISSIONER for Sunday Night Wrestling on MTV. But I cannot yet reveal the identity of this man. I will announce this TOMORROW on MTV. Tune in then to find out who it is. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm a very busy man ... *Bockwinkel leaves, Tazz and Watts both follow him both looking extremely pleased with themselves; both Solie and Caudle look totally stunned.* In a planned spot, Abby loosened the turnbuckle and fell through it in dramatic fashion spraining his ankle in the process. Ring attendents had to fix the ring in the middle of the match. Various members of the Alliance Against America blatantly worked together throughout the match and conspired to ensure that they were left with a 4 vs. 1 situation against Bob Backlund at the end. Hopelessly outnumbered, Backlund managed to eliminate Koloff, Volkoff and Zangief but Iron Sheik managed to eliminate him cheaply while his back was turned after the Russians would not vacate the side of the ring. *All of the members of the Alliance Against America celebrate together in the ring. Iron Sheik gets on the mic ...* Iron Sheik: I am again world champion! Iran Number One! I am world champion! Like before I beat Mr. Bob Backlund! Make him humble! I beat you! The Alliance Against America come together! We beat all! Iran number one! Russia number one! I got Arab-Man Adnan Al-Kaissie. I got Russia-man Nikolai! Russia-man Ivan Koloff! Russia-man Victor Zangief! Turk-man Abdullah the Butcher!! I prove again I am world champion! Like I prove in Olympic in 72. Like I prove in 1983. IRON SHEIK FOREVER!! In case you are wondering, yes, this means there is no a brand split between AWA and MTV brands. The next MTV show will feature a lot of debuts.

First off, some good news. I managed to secure the TV deal with ESPN that I wanted, as well as with FX Canada and with Eurosport. This will be the new home of AWA Championship Wrestling, although the MTV slot on Sunday nights will still continue. I start this week with a huge amount of firings: First off, Kal Rudman asked for a ridiculous pay rise, over 100% of what he was on already. I refused, he kicked off, and so I fired him. Poor Kal wasn't really doing a lot since the World Tour finished anyway. Next, this happened: Boris Malenko named almost half of the entire roster and pissed EVERYONE off. Including me, since this has lost sponsorship money. He's history, and a lot of people were happy about it. Then there was this: Fired. And this: Fired. I am sick and tired of the locker room being so toxic so really clamping down on ANY nonsense at all. Let's get on with TV: AWA Championship Wrestling, May, Week 1, 91: Bagwell mega-push continues. Surprisingly good match this. Pity the Fool Mr. T: S'up suckas, this is Pity the Fool in a NEW home here on ESPN on Saturday night. Tonight my guest is the new President of the AWA ... He's a former 4-time AWA World Champion and 3-time co-holder of the AWA titles with the great Ray Stevens ... Mr. Nick Bockwinkel. Bockwinkel: Why thank you, Mr. T. A very kind introduction. Mr. T: So, Nick Bockwinkel, you have recently been appointed President of the AWA. You were the vice president before? Bockwinkel: Well that's right. Verne Gagne has announced his retirement from the wrestling business with immediate effect. As vice president, as per the constitution of the American Wrestling Alliance, I became the new president. Mr. T: I see. And what can the wrestlers expect from you as the president? Bockwinkel: I am going to try to be fair and call it straight down the line in order to protect the intregrity of this great sport. Mr. T: Mr. Bockwinkel, with the greatest respect, sir, last week we saw ... let's show the tape ... *The incident with DiBiase seemingly getting a mysterious contract signed for a shot at Steamboat's title, with Bockwinkel looking like he'd been paid off* Bockwinkel: What are you insinuating? Mr. T: Well, I'm saying this: you took money from The Million Dollar Man for that contract! Bockwinkel: How dare y... I did not! I could fine and suspend you for bringing this great sport into disrepute! You ... ignoramous you ... Mr. T: Who you callin' an ignoramous fool? Bockwinkel: I am warning you, T, the President of the AWA is not a man that you want to be obtruding or incommoding. Mr. T: Cut your jibber jabber, fool, I ain't no sucka. I can see you's was up to no good with Ted DiBiase! Bockwinkel: Your empty allegations are nothing but hot air. *Bockwinkel stands up, prim and properly. He looks at Booker T with some caution.* Bockwinkel: Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some very important business to attend to. Not long left for Wahoo sadly. In fact, he retired just after this match. Orndorff is going to be the perennial filler-in during this Billy Graham "WWF All Stars" story. And he does a fine job of filling in. Strong first show on ESPN. Sunday Night Wrestling on MTV, May Week 1, 91: Cruise: Welcome everyone, I am Chris Cruise, YOUR host for Sunday Night Wrestling on MTV! Coming to you every Sunday night from Disney's MGM studios here in Florida. We have a lot of great action for you this week. The Million Dollar Man, Ted DiBiase is here. Greg Valentine is going to be in action. The Alliance Against America will be looking to have their way. And, ladies and gentlemen, Ricky Steamboat will be featuring on "A Cuppa with Lord Al". A Cuppa with Lord Al *Lord Al is sitting at a table with a china tea set, cakes and sandwiches. Lord Jerry von Kramer and Lord Steven Regal can be seen in the background talking with their noses in the air.* Lord Al: Ladies and gentlemen, I am proud that my little show, "A Cuppa with Lord Al" is going to be featuring in a regular slot here on MTV every Sunday night here in Sunny Florida. And what better way to get us started than welcoming the AWA Universal Champion, Ricky THE DRAGON Steamboat! Steamboat: Thank you, your lordship. I'm happy to be here. Lord Al: Mr. Steamboat, your career seems to be really going from strength to strength now. What a year you've been having. Just to remind the viewers at home, back in February you defeated Jumbo Tsuruta to win the AWA World Title in the final of the tournment at the Chi-town Rumble, and just last month you unified the AWA and WWA world titles by defeating the mighty Andre the Giant to become the first AWA Universal champion. How are you feeling? Steamboat: Well Alfred, it has been a wonderful year and I'm pleased with my success. I hope that all the fans out there enjoy watching me wrestle. I hope that they can see that hard work, and training, and dedication can pay off. Lord Al: Can I ask, what is the schedule like for the Universal champion? You have defended the belt all around the world. Steamboat: Just this past month, I've faced Dr. Wagner Jr in Mexico, Animal Hamaguchi in Japan, Adrian Street in England, and here in the United States of America both Dory and Terry Funk, Abdullah the Butcher, last night Paul Orndroff, and of course just last that NO GOOD Million Dollar Man, Ted DiBiase. Lord Al: Gosh! You are a busy man. Now on the subject of Ted DiBiase, will you be giving him the rematch he wants so badly? Steamboat: I am a fighting champion your Lordship, and I don't back down from any challenger! There was no winner at the Jim Crockett Sr Memorial, and so I can announce that there WILL be a rematch on PPV at the New Orleans SUPERDOME at the end of this month! Lord Al: Golly, well all the best of luck. These Alliance Against America guys have had nothing going on for a good four months now. Maybe time to give them a feud. Great performance from Ted here. This is the best rated show overall that I've put on so far.

Fully support Mooney mispronouncing Tenryu's name here.

All fan letters read out on this show are legit.

Seems weird for Snuka to be there in 86, he was still working for NJPW and AWA, and still a big enough star to return to WWF in 1989.

Those first two ECW shows are dire, absolutely atrocious. I guess things could only get better.

I'm watching now and doing a bit of live tweeting. Already everything I hoped it would be!

If this is going right back to 93/4, I might be tempted to watch. I've never watched that stuff and early ECW kinda fascinates me. The idea of Sal Bellomo still having a job in wrestling, for example.

I had seen everything on the best of WCW/NWO tapes they put out in the 90s, which had some NWA stuff on them. As well as that random one hosted by Flair and Schiavone. I watched WCW from 91 onwards. But I don't think I gained that real spark to explore earlier stuff until I watched that Ultimate Ric Flair Collection and was mesmerised by it. I don't have much of a sense of how a UK fan could have been into NWA stuff before then, were you into it?

Thanks a lot for listening and comments guys. I was so whacked last night and we did this at legit 3-4am my time, I drank two loaded coffees just to make it, but was great to talk to the boys again and in these momentous circumstances. There were some things we covered cos we felt we kinda had to in order to give this proper coverage considering the talk. There are lots of guys who listen who never read the boards, so I wanted to try to ensure we spoke to all of the talking points, and not just the ones things we were high on. Just speaking for myself personally, I can honestly say that Last Battle of Atlanta dropping out of nowhere is in my top 5 or even Top 3 moments as a fan. Now that I say that I'm not sure what else would even be in the ballpark. Maybe in 1993, when I was a total little mark who had waited the entire holidays for Summerslam 93 to come out on VHS, including calling in at WH Smiths maybe twice a week checking on the date. The day I had that in my hands was up there. Maybe watching The Ultimate Ric Flair Collection for the first time in 2003, which looking back was really really formative to me as a fan. Watching some of those promos from JCP for the first time blew my mind and is directly responsible for my interest in the NWA and wrestling history beyond the WWE. I dunno what else, but Pete said it right: kinda felt like being a kid again the night before Xmas.

I think this is a great topic and a different question from the infamous Do Standards Change thread, which made everyone such a big fan of Joe Lanza. I think you have to take certain contextual things into consideration and accept them. For example, in some contexts the piledriver is a transitional spot, in others it's the deadliest move that has ended careers and been banned. You have to adjust expectations. If I watch stuff from the past decade or so, I adjust to the fact that the crowds are gonna be different and doing the chants and things. Doesn't mean I'll accept or love it, but it would be entirely unfair to go in expecting a different type of crowd. The workers have to wrestle under a different set of conditions, and you have to make certain allowances. In the context of late 80s WWF, something like the typical Dibiase vs. Savage match or Galmour Girls vs. Jumping Bomb Angels are worked at a frantic pace, but those same matches in the context of AJPW wouldn't stand out in the same way. This isn't about one being better than the other, it's just about recognising that within certain contexts things can seem more or less special. I said it before: within the context of the 80s AJPW set where you're watching all-time classics back to back to back, a match like Choshu / Yatsu vs. Hansen / Dibiase would go completely missing. If that match had been on Summerslam 88 it would be thought of as one of the best matches in WWF history. Context does matter, and there's virtually no way around that.

You've got to tell us what you don't like about the post-match! If you're talking about the piledriver through the table, I don't think I've ever seen anyone be down on that. Just sheer curiosity.

This is a brand new show that is going to come out every Thursday on PWO-PTBN. Shows will never be much longer than 1 hour. I'll post all the shows in this thread. -------------- Episode 1: http://placetobenation.com/letters-from-kayfabe-1/ Join Allan and Parv as they explore the deepest recesses of the WWF universe, "the edges of the cheese platter". On this first show: 1. The Mailbag: Shane Douglas in 1990-1 / Buddy Rose: the blow-away years / Nick Bockwinkel in the WWF 2. The Event Center with JT Rozzero: The 1991 King of the Ring Tournament 3. The Long Topic: King of the Ring tournament pre-93 / The "King" title To write in to the mailbag, tweet @allan_cheapshot or @JerryvonK Follow along on YouTube:

I don't think they really taped anything. Last owners were Murdoch and Blackjack Mulligan and I want to say Flair also had points? There's ONE tape of TV from that era circa 79, which we reviewed here: http://placetobenation.com/titans-of-wrestling-47-nwa-western-states-amarillo-in-1979/ And then literally the only other thing I've seen from there is Dory vs. Red Basteen which is mysteriously shown in a clip on Tuesday Night Titans in 1984. Since Basteen was the guest, I don't know if the footage was his? But, yeah, that promotion looks like it would have been awesome in its heyday.

If we widen it out from just matches, of all the old territories, I feel like the one I'd lose my shit over most would be the old NWA Amarillo Funks territory. Just seems like it would have a perfect mix of technical wrestling, wild brawls and gimmick matches and a lot of talent passed through there. Plus you have Dory and Terry of course. When I look through results, those are the cards I look at with wonder sometimes.

I get the impression that Vince was very much Bruce's boss whereas he's Pat's friend.

As a follow-up question, how do people feel about stuff that happens directly after a match technically ends? My go-to example is Funks vs. Abby / Sheik from 78 which kind of doesn't have a finish at all but drifts into the most exhilerating post-match ever, and my 5-star rating comes from that. Something I've gone back and forth with Chad about in the past. Do you go bell-to-bell, or count the whole segment?

Maybe throw a Frankensteiner or two in there too right?I didn't mind the finish but the post match was really weak. I got no sense that it was the end of a long feud because they didn't shake hands afterwards or start crying and take bows to the crowd.First time around the finish did take me a bit off guard and it is a little abrupt. But expecting definitive finishers in 1983 just wasn't how they tended to work. For example, the blow off to the epic Bruno vs. Larry feud is just Bruno walking out of the cage. What's the finish of Final Conflict? Kernodle has Youngblood covered and Sarge is tied up with the ref while Steamer goes over and rolls Youngblood on top. The finish isn't really what you remember, it's the massive bump from Sarge and the huge amounts of blood, Here the finish isn't what you remember, it's them laying in shots on their knees, and again the colour. Magnum vs Tully has a really memorable finish, but I can't really recall off-hand finishes for Sarge vs. Patterson or Sarge vs. Sheik. Doesn't Sarge just whack him with a boot one last time or something like that? The idea of attritional damage and being exhausted / worn down through brutality was bigger in the early 80s than it would be later when it's all about the impact of one big move. I agree with almost all of that. However, the match still would have been stronger with a more solid finish. I'm a little leery of calling that ahistorical aesthetic criticism because it's also not like most old school wrestlers didn't put a lot of importance on properly working the finish. Plus, this is a big match booked with a clear finish, rather than a non-finish or a screwy finish. I will say that everyone saying it's just a whipping a guy face first into the cage, to me that seems a little bit wrong. Really, it's picking him up and doing that 2x. And it's 2x after Rich gets advantage after Sawyer's failed crossbody and a couple other face first throws into the cage. (I liked this aspect because I'm so tired of the WWE standard routine of...omg shocked face! he kicked out!? stall or let other guy get his offense coming back, instead Rich is just going to keep fighting through exhaustion and do it again!) I liked the finish for helping to play into the major idea for the match of playing into the attrition and exhaustion aspect of the match. However, even on a few re-watches, it strikes me as a minute or two too soon for that, even considering all the blood gushing and how yes, guys will gas out very quickly in a real fight. I think the crowd, while satisfied, was ready for either more or a more definitive stamp moment to it. Along those lines, and finally, I think they could have tried to work something out to make that final blow into the cage more impactful looking because everyone probably will remember that missed crossbody that kicked off the prior nearfall sequence more. Maybe even something like Sawyer barely getting a shoulder up and an exhausted Rich, who can hardly stand, just gets a mount type position on him, hits him a couple times, and headbutts him a few times before almost collapsing into the final pin. With all the blood and Rich's hair, I think that might have been more impactful. Yeah, great post. I don't disagree. I think the finish being the way it was probably fed into Ole vs Ellering as the ultimate pay off for this. Ellering was in the cage and wasn't the stip that if Rich won, Ole would get to face Ellering in there? The crowd, to me at least, seemed even more pumped for that. And it seems like we have to view the two matches back to back, which is why I'm guessing WWE released it that way. Seems to me that the booking was pointing towards the second match. If all of that detracts from Last Battle as a stand alone match, I think that's fair criticism. The real heat seems to come from Ole kicking the shit out of Ellering, even as over as Rich was. Maybe throw a Frankensteiner or two in there too right? Yeah, that's clearly what I'm advocating. Yeah, sorry for snark earlier. Not deserved.

Don't want to clog up Last Battle thread with this. But I did think this was interesting: Are these iconic finishes or have they become iconic because they ended classic matches? How much did they help make these matches classics? And how much does a match need a finish like this to get the full five stars from people? I got no answer myself, need to look over the matches I've given the full five to and think about it. When I think of Clash 6, I tend to think of Ric in the double chickenwing, 16 elbow drops, or them just locking up as the iconic moments in that match, rather than the actual finish, but then when I think of Magnum - Tully, the image of the finish with the spike flashes into view.

You get the point though, if that match had happened even two years later it would have had Sarge teasing that boot a lot more than he did before the point of impact, and also the camera lingering on it with Vince emphasising the plot points, etc. etc. Of all the things that took the longest to get used to for me going back and watching late 70s / early 80s stuff, the abrupt finishes were the hardest thing to get used to. Like in so many matches the piledriver looks devastating, but it doesn't finish the match and then they get the pinfall off a basic slam or whatever. Not saying it is a good thing, just saying that in that era expecting really definitive finishes is a bit of an anachronism.

Maybe throw a Frankensteiner or two in there too right? I didn't mind the finish but the post match was really weak. I got no sense that it was the end of a long feud because they didn't shake hands afterwards or start crying and take bows to the crowd.First time around the finish did take me a bit off guard and it is a little abrupt. But expecting definitive finishers in 1983 just wasn't how they tended to work. For example, the blow off to the epic Bruno vs. Larry feud is just Bruno walking out of the cage. What's the finish of Final Conflict? Kernodle has Youngblood covered and Sarge is tied up with the ref while Steamer goes over and rolls Youngblood on top. The finish isn't really what you remember, it's the massive bump from Sarge and the huge amounts of blood, Here the finish isn't what you remember, it's them laying in shots on their knees, and again the colour. Magnum vs Tully has a really memorable finish, but I can't really recall off-hand finishes for Sarge vs. Patterson or Sarge vs. Sheik. Doesn't Sarge just whack him with a boot one last time or something like that? The idea of attritional damage and being exhausted / worn down through brutality was bigger in the early 80s than it would be later when it's all about the impact of one big move.

Maybe throw a Frankensteiner or two in there too right?

Updated these pages for the first time in two years today. Some fun stats: No. of Cards reviewed: 58 Chad, MVP: Flair: 12 (including once as Black Scorpion) Arn: 5 Steamboat: 3 Vader: 3 Tully: 3 Luger: 3 Eaton: 3 Parv, MVP Flair: 7 Arn: 7 Steamboat: 5 Tully: 3 Luger: 3 Cornette: 3 Eaton: 3 Chad, Billy Graham: Billy Graham: 2 Dusty Rhodes: 2 Ranger Ross: 2 PN News: 2 Jimmy Garvin: 2 Mike Graham: 2 Erik Watts: 2 Steve Williams: 2 Steve Austin: 2 Parv, Billy Graham: Jimmy Garvin: 5 Billy Graham: 3 Nikita Koloff: 3 Steve Williams: 3 Sandy Scott: 2 Jack Victory: 2 PN News: 2