SteveJRogers

STRONGLY disagree with simple dismissal of Austin from the Mr. WrestleMania discussion. Sure, he doesn't have the quantity, but he does have the quality. THE WM match of all-time with Bret 3 times walking into WrestleMania looking for the championship, three times walking out WITH the championship, only Hogan and Cena can say that as many times or more. A three match series against The Rock that is probably THE feud of the WrestleMania era. Not saying he should have the title of Mr. WrestleMania, but those three factors alone should keep him in the discussion, and maybe top 5 of all-time WM performers.

Just catching up with the WM vs Starrcade episode. Surprised no one has chimed in yet by listening back to Where The Big Boys Play Starrcade 1991 show and putting down what Parv, Chad and Steven Graham had as their awards yet: Match Chad: Zenk/Taylor vs Anderson/Luger, Parv: Battle Bowl Battle Royale, Steven: Pillman/Eaton vs Abdullah/Sting MVP Steven: Abdullah, Chad: Arn Anderson, Parv: Abdullah Billy Graham Steven: Jimmy Garvin, Chad: Mike Graham, Parv: Bill Kazmeier

He also was briefly kayfabed as a cousin of the Anderson "family" to justify Ole and Arn (neither actually related to Gene Anderson) helping him.

I found it bizarre that Edge and Christian wound up on a "shocking wrestling truths" article. The ironic thing though is that Copeland and Reso are probably as close to being called IRL brothers as you can get without being blood relatives.

The difference between the IC and US Title and why they did the Bryan bit and nothing with Cena, its that the IC IS WWE. While they do touch upon the US TItle's legacy going back to the JCP days, they've never treated it with any sort of historical reverence that they've done with the IC title through the years.

BTW, this is a perfect example of the comics creator (really, any serialized fiction from the creative standpoint) mentality I mentioned. "HERE IS MY CHARACTER, I WILL RAM HIM/HER DOWN YOUR THROAT UNTIL YOU FINALLY ACCEPT HIM/HER OR I QUIT THIS JOB! AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, THEN WATCH/READ SOMETHING ELSE, STOP BITCHING ABOUT IT!" And very rarely will you see a course correction. I mean, it does happen, but not as often as fans would like, and usually once the creator of the character is off the book/show/franchise/whatever. Sometimes the "Mary Sue" (term for pet character) can be rehabilitated with the right writers, etc, sometimes though they do fade into obscurity. The notion that the company, show, writer, etc will dictate the popularity of a character, and it doesn't matter (a little irony there as I'm thinking of the Rocky Miavia/The Rock transformation) what the initial fan reaction is not just a pro wrestling thing.

Just to add, I think Audbrey also was thrown off and went on defensive mode for the show right from the start. I mean he did seem taken aback after Scott did the bit about jumping off bridges, and then seemed to run down The Bushwackers (as The Bushwackers), along with The Bellas and the idea of Hogan inducting Savage (which was never brought back up). So he probably was thinking that his opinions were going to be "controversial" in terms of how the show was going to go. Granted Ben and Andrew backed him up often, but I can see how he thought from the start it was going to be a point-counter point type of show with him against Scott and Will from the start.

To be slightly fair, he is a good IRL friend of one of the panelist since he, Ben, started at Marvel Comics. In other words, his appearance is probably not as random as those ripping him seem to be. I think he may be taking a comics based approach, where yes a series of good to great stories can elevate a character from one status to another (and vice versa if written poorly). I mean look at Aquaman since 2011! On top of that, comics is an industry (including a lot of the fans themselves) rife with those that think their internet fan base has a negative hive mentality that should "let it go, and enjoy what you like without tearing down what you don't like." I also think you guys are taking it a bit too hard here, which is why he went off like that. Yeah its not an approach that is the norm in a lot of circles, but I don't think it was as outright insulting as this thread is making it seem.

If somebody made this claim to describe John Cena's legacy, it would be jumped upon. i think a key difference is that Cena deserves the hype in kayfabe terms. calling HBK "Mr. Wrestlemania" is like calling Dan Marino "Mr. Super Bowl", and it's one of the definitive examples of how wins and losses aren't treated as important anymore. Cena is also more of a draw than HBK ever was, going by available evidence, so that feeds into the "manufactured" narrative as well. DAN MARINO? REALLY? Jim Plunkett, or John Elway, might be a more apt comparison than a one time SB performer! Probably more Elway due to the mainstream media "waking up" to how great Elway was AFTER he won his first one after years of considering him grossly overrated. BTW, I find it utterly fascinating that despite his greatness being a product of the WWF's hype machine, he got into the Observer's Hall in 2002. But then again Triple H went in the class of 2005, and Benoit also ridiculously early as well (2002 I think).

I'd imagine its more realizing that they should have their VOICE still associated with the bigger matches.

Couple of things, first granted that is the format of Wrestling Culture (press record and just go with whatever happens) so I guess whatever works, but I find it hilarious that Meltzer didn't stop recording, and had to explain why he was thrown off when going back the podcast. Does he think there is a set time that he has to release his show? Second, Ross was front row next to Austin at the HOF last year though. So this isn't a "new thing" that just happened with Ross and the WWE.

They are clearly in a working relationship with ESPN at the moment, with Simmons being on Raw, ESPN doing a behind the scenes special, and Reigns and Lesnar being on Sportscenter and SportsNation yesterday. Heyman was on, also. So, I think what Dave thinks is total bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised if they make more appearances this week. I listen to the SVP and Russillo show on the way in to work, and Scott Van Pelt did his "One Big Thing" segement on how he doesn't understand why so many people around him are excited about WrestleMania. He didn't go as far as bashing it, but clearly he was bemused at how all these people at the mighty ESPN were fans of this silly thing for children. Wrestling gets lumped in with sci-fi/fantasy/horror/adventure genre stuff that have a predominate marketing campaign for those younger than High School level ages. Not Van Pelt, but this was a quote from an ESPN host when told he mixed up Lord of The Rings and Harry Potter: "There's a difference?" Speaking of LotR, another radio guy vehemently declared he was never seeing a film headlined by Viggo Mortensen because he was "that Lord of The Rings guy" even though movie in question was a western based on a "historical legend."

Mero's antics during that promo were just...well...just...not much else to say really! At least with Vinnie Vegas, there is more of the Nash we'd all come to know in that character. There isn't much, but it seems to fit what he'd be as Diesel and himself. I'm also kind of interested in seeing when the DDP transformation happens. How did he go from this "high roller" goof with barely any heat, to one of the hottest acts in the promotion by the start of the Nitro era.

I want to say it was the 1st Floyd Patterson vs. Ingemar Johansson fight in 1959. Wow, that long ago huh? I wonder if those events included the entire card, I mean you wouldn't have expected JUST Ali-Frazier going to MSG on 3/8/1971 so why would only their fight be shown on the closed circuit broadcast. Sure the bout went 15 rounds and over an hour, but what if it turned into Tyson-Spinks? Come to think of it, why the hell aren't entire boxing card rundowns as memorable as the main attraction? OE: UGH! Been trying to find some sort of reference site that could tell me what other boxing matches, if any, went on at The Garden on 3/8/1971 besides Ali-Frazier I...if only there was a Graham Cawthon for boxing cards! Seriously, I refuse to believe MSG or the promoters of that iconic bout would have put all their eggs in the "this is going the distance" basket and not have a full card of 2 or more matches for the world wide audiences to enjoy that night. I mean if it turned out to be a 2 minute first round knockout or TKO, that could have been as devastating to The Sweet Science as any number of reasons for the decline of boxing in the last 30 or so years. That's just silly. It's a fight. It can be over in one punch. People know that going in. It may not be as revered as it is today, but to suggest it would have been "devastating" or "crippling" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the sport. Fair enough, I was thinking more about how it was so heavily promoted, and got tons of mainstream publicity, that it could have been considered as laughable as, say that Evil Kinevil stunt that became an epic fail if say Frazier ended it with a first round KO. I'll admit that I'm overstating it, especially in light of events that ended quickly years before, and since, but I'm probably factoring the whole era that the fight was in, and what kind of mainstream event it was. To say nothing about rumors and whispers would swirl about the loser "taking a dive." I also went overboard based on the wrong assumption that it was the ONLY match on the docket that night at MSG. Which seems like how legit fighting sports histories tend to be recorded as.

D'OH! Meant to edit, not reply! Please delete.

LOL! Of course. But the most hyped and most heavily promoted boxing match, probably of all-time even still to this day, ending in only a round or two, would have been a bit crippling. Maybe not to the sport itself (unless one of the two pulled a Tyson that night) and certainly both men had the gravitas to rebound from such a defeat (and Ali would have had the built in excuse of ring rust), but to the Garden as a Big Fight venue. OE: WOW! Never knew The Greatest had a brother who also boxed.

I want to say it was the 1st Floyd Patterson vs. Ingemar Johansson fight in 1959. Wow, that long ago huh? I wonder if those events included the entire card, I mean you wouldn't have expected JUST Ali-Frazier going to MSG on 3/8/1971 so why would only their fight be shown on the closed circuit broadcast. Sure the bout went 15 rounds and over an hour, but what if it turned into Tyson-Spinks? Come to think of it, why the hell aren't entire boxing card rundowns as memorable as the main attraction? OE: UGH! Been trying to find some sort of reference site that could tell me what other boxing matches, if any, went on at The Garden on 3/8/1971 besides Ali-Frazier I...if only there was a Graham Cawthon for boxing cards! Seriously, I refuse to believe MSG or the promoters of that iconic bout would have put all their eggs in the "this is going the distance" basket and not have a full card of 2 or more matches for the world wide audiences to enjoy that night. I mean if it turned out to be a 2 minute first round knockout or TKO, that could have been as devastating to The Sweet Science as any number of reasons for the decline of boxing in the last 30 or so years.

When was the first boxing closed circuit event?

There was also a Ranger hockey game that night, so the event had to be squeezed into an afternoon time slot. That's probably the most unbelievable part of it all. Not only is the card briskly paced, but it wasn't the "main attraction" so to speak, or only event as the case has been for the most part, for the arena that day.

Yeah, but usually with intermission to get a bathroom or refreshment break.

Heck of a fantasy booking. Instead of falling down the card and headed back to Titan Land, what if Steamboat was the one that saved Flair from Terry Funk at Starrcade '89, joined forces with the returning Andersons to be the latest Horsemen, only to challenge Flair at Wrestle War and then get kicked out at Clash 10? Of course Sting was positioned as THE GUY at that point, so its hard to argue with the plan they had, but if you put Steamer in Sting's role in early 1990 would probably have given a more epic feel to that whole angle.

BTW, there is an actual DC superhero named The Spoiler! A member of Batman's supporting cast (well, really the Tim Drake Robin's supporting cast in Tim's solo book), she took her name because she was thwarting sinister plots, specifically done by her father, who was a costumed villain known as The Cluemaster, and in previous DC continuities she "graduated" to being a Robin (after Tim quit/fired for a brief time) and a Batgirl. But currently she is back to her original hero personae.

*sigh* I never said anything about Heyman. Just the point is that I honestly don't see what Brock pulled in getting Heyman back on board as happening in a professional organization that wasn't an entertainment venue (be it sports or otherwise).

To say nothing about his unwillingness to learn or grow as a "character." Perfect example, the reason Heyman is back despite a severly burnt bridge between Paul and the company, as well as Paul being DONE with the business, moved on and was in a healthier place to the point that he was never going back to ANY promotion. BUT Brock hated talking SO much, and didn't want to start fresh with a brand new mouthpiece, he demamded they bring back Heyman. It worked out of course, with Heyman adding more credentials to a HOF career, but it was only because Lesnar wanted nothing to do with talking and needed Heyman specifically. I'm curious but do you think that a talking version of Brock would be a better character? I understand the promotion's goal is to churn out TV to sell to all the different markets but my problem with characters like Roman Reigns, Seth Rollins or Dean Ambrose is that they get too much talking time. Even Heyman is very repetitive and he is one of the best talkers out there. The comment was about Brock as a human being. My response was that he didn't give a shit about the icy relations between his good friend and IRL buisness partner and his new place of employment. Nor did it seem that he had much consideration for his friend's state of mind of putting his time in the buisness behind him and feelings of "I'M FREE!" and had him brought back Godfather III style, because it made Lesnar comfortable, and Lesnar knew the company would do whatever he demanded. I don't think Heyman would be there if he didn't want to be. Agreed. Its more the principle of things in entertainment industries that are common place that wouldn't fly in real life, and be considered against the norms expected professional behavior.

To say nothing about his unwillingness to learn or grow as a "character." Perfect example, the reason Heyman is back despite a severly burnt bridge between Paul and the company, as well as Paul being DONE with the business, moved on and was in a healthier place to the point that he was never going back to ANY promotion. BUT Brock hated talking SO much, and didn't want to start fresh with a brand new mouthpiece, he demamded they bring back Heyman. It worked out of course, with Heyman adding more credentials to a HOF career, but it was only because Lesnar wanted nothing to do with talking and needed Heyman specifically. I'm curious but do you think that a talking version of Brock would be a better character? I understand the promotion's goal is to churn out TV to sell to all the different markets but my problem with characters like Roman Reigns, Seth Rollins or Dean Ambrose is that they get too much talking time. Even Heyman is very repetitive and he is one of the best talkers out there. The comment was about Brock as a human being. My response was that he didn't give a shit about the icy relations between his good friend and IRL buisness partner and his new place of employment. Nor did it seem that he had much consideration for his friend's state of mind of putting his time in the buisness behind him and feelings of "I'M FREE!" and had him brought back Godfather III style, because it made Lesnar comfortable, and Lesnar knew the company would do whatever he demanded.