Jimmy Redman

Wow, speaking of which, Cherry. When she started having matches she was my favourite wrestler in the world. Then they quickly shelved her after like a month and I was devastated.

Yeah, it isn't so much that Dave is using his mind control powers on people, but rather just simply creating awareness of something by pimping it so heavily. Thanks to Dave's love of the product NJ has got substantially more coverage, reviews, mentions, radio time on the Observer site than any other kind of puro has in a long time. For someone who visits or subscribes who isn't already interested in New Japan, if you keep hearing about it over and over again, and especially keep hearing about how great it is, you might be inclined to check it out. Certainly more inclined than if you weren't constantly reminded of it's existence and greatness. As someone who watches zero current puro, if I decided to start watching it today I would start with New Japan, because that is what is being talked about and pimped. I hear basically zero about anything else in puro these days, so I wouldn't have any idea where else to start. And I'm not someone who puts a whole lot of stock in Dave's opinions on wrestling.

When I was a kid I thought the 30s was middle aged. Now I'm in my 20s, I think the 40s are middle aged. When I'm 50 I'll probably think the 70s are middle aged. It's all relative. It's understandable that you find it hard to think of someone younger than you as an old guy.

I think of Christian as old now mainly because he looks it. Not 'old' as in an old person, but old as in...reaching middle age. He's pretty scrawny by WWE standards, he keeps dyeing his hair blonde I presume to hide the grey, and it is thinning. Jericho is starting to look the same with his collapsed pecs and botox face. In turn, I don't think of Rey Mysterio as old at all, whereas I know others do. But maybe for me it's because Rey wears a mask and you can't see him ageing physically.

I'd argue that this is conventional enough to be considered "part of wrestling logic". It's just one of those things: that in wrestling after an Irish Whip guys just keep running until they explicitly break it with the ropes, or get hit, or pull off a dropkick or something. I don't know if the line and ducking are really necessary though. If the move you are talking about is a scoop powerslam then loads of guys do that move. If Orton requires a ducked clothesline every single time he does it, then he's introducing a level of contrivance that doesn't need to be there. The only setup required is an Irish Whip / or that the guy is already from some other cause: Here's my man Ted DiBiase doing one Looking for examples on youtube of Orton doing that move, it doesn't look like he always requires the ducked clothesline: - arguably quite an innovative use of a scoop powerslam - the ducked clothesline is only there once or twice. The ducked clothesline isn't bad in and of itself, but would be if it happened in every single Orton match. Ultimately, I think that guys keeping on running from the momentum of an Irish Whip is not a contrivance in wrestling. It is a part of Orton's comeback routine. Clothesline, heel up, clothesline, heel up and throws clothesline, Orton ducks, heel runs the ropes, bounces off and into Orton's powerslam. He also does it in isolation and as a counter to other things, of course, but his everyday formula involves a heel throwing a clothesline that misses and then running the ropes, which is something they would never ever do at any other time, to get back to the point. This is it: My point from the last post was not to suggest that those other kinds of set ups are good or bad, my point is that loads of set ups are contrived to some degree, and thus I don't think the second rope draping set up is any more contrived than loads of others. But it is the one that gets singled out more than any others, especially as a stock criticism of Rey Mysterio.

Going off the first video, that is actually the same move that I mentioned that Jericho and Austin do. So add another guy to the list that people drape themselves on the second rope for. To me, I don't think the second rope moves are any more contrived than any other move where a guy is in an unnatural position or has to wait around forever for something. The scissor kick has already been covered. What about all the moves that require a guy to lay on the floor prone for like half a minute while you get your dance in? The ones that require a guy to throw a line just to get ducked then keep running and bounce off the ropes back into whatever move (like Orton's powerslam)? The ones that require you to slowly get to your feet and turn around into your doom, when in reality you'd never stand up that way at any other time? The ones that require you to attempt a move you have never used before in your life just so someone can use their signature counter (Don't Powerbomb Kidman Syndrome)? What about the one where the guy leapfrogs/Bryan Flips out of the corner, which requires the opponent to randomly sprint face first into the corner without attempting any kind of move? You can pick apart the set ups for the vast majority of moves I think, if you wanted to.

Rey has done it that way quite a few times. One example being the Cena match from Raw. On the set ups though, to me it makes perfect sense that, if you have a really effective move that you can do if your opponent is draped over the rope, wouldn't you think up and perfect at least a couple of ways to maneuver guys into that position so you can do it? Like, doing it when it presents itself is fine, but taking the off chance that a guy will crawl up the ropes and be in the right position during the match doesn't seem a very high percentage strategy. A guy will work the leg to set up his leg submission finish. Why can't Rey work during a match to put a guy in position for his finisher? Not to mention, in regards to JVK, the 619 is not the only move that guys drape the second rope for. Christian's 'stand on the guy - jump to floor - slap' move, Jericho's running leg lariat thing, Austin used the same move, Henry's neck snap where he jumps to the floor. And this is just modern WWE examples, I'm sure there are others. But somehow it is never a stock criticism of, say, Chris Jericho that "it is so contrived that guys lay on the second rope for him to do his move", like it is with Rey. And to the second part, it isn't about crowds being stupid, but obvious cues to the crowd are what WWE babyface style is based on. They all have signature moves that involve some sort of signal/build up/positional set up to indicate to the audience that it is coming, so they pop. You may find it a flawed style, but it is WWE's, not Rey's, and everybody does it.

Fair point.

I never actually watched WCW in 2000, but I will say that having read that, and having read El-P's recap of actual WCW in 2000, yours sounds appreciably better.

I'm strongly considering doing a PG13 set in the near future Do this and have all my money. After reading this thread I decided to take the plunge last night and check out the mysterious and much-hyped PG-13. After watching everything a cursory Youtube search has to offer, it looks as though they are my new favourite tag team. I need more footage immediately.

"Lance was married and I had standards, so we drove Corny nuts." Yeah Jericho talks about that in his first book.

And Hunter saw business go down quite a way as heel ace of WWE. So maybe the reason it isn't usually attempted or sustained for any length of time is that it simply doesn't work?

As someone who grew up on modern WWE, this is one of the most illuminating things I have read in quite some time. I mean I did understand that it was supposed to be the heel trying to take a shortcut by grabbing the rope, but that didn't explain to me why Young would kick them off instead of enforcing the rope break. It comes off like Young is flagrantly disregarding the rules because he doesn't like the heel. But in the context of 'holding the rope' vs 'being IN the ropes', it makes sense. Cheers for that.

I know I've read this story before. Do we have a timeframe for it or an idea as to the context? Even if the bare bones of it are true, there may be a reason for it. I.e. Hunter was in some sort of political fight with whoever about going over someone or not, or maybe a creative argument about losing on TV as the champion (which he seems to be at the time). Not saying Hunter is necessarily in the right or it is good behaviour, but I mean I seriously doubt that even Hunter sat in his dressing room every Monday waiting for the script, ready to throw a tantrum if he wasn't scheduled to win clean no matter what. The little unsubstantiated "This was hardly an isolated incident" at the end sure wants you to think that though.

On another topic, how do we feel about John Cena in other eras? In terms of not just making it, but being successful. I seem to have this argument every so often, including the other day, and I'm probably too close to it so I wonder what other people think.

Maybe they should introduce an appeals system like they have in a lot of sports now, whereby if a wrestler thinks he has been cheated on, he can appeal, get a replay and a decision made. (I'm kidding, but it is interesting to think how to apply these sorts of things to pro wrestling)

Edge has/had a lot more natural charisma and star power that The Miz. He looked cooler, and the Lita thing really helped propel him to that level. Also, Edge had been a regular since 1998, had been mixing it with main eventers since 2002, so his title push in 2006 didn't feel premature, especially given the shocking way it unfolded. And yeah, he was booked pretty much perfectly in that period, from the Matt Hardy feud to the 'live sex' to the Foley stuff. Miz not only looks weedy and unthreatening, he has no cutting edge or cool factor either. He isn't particularly impressive on the mic. His finisher wasn't especially spectacular or over. His in ring skills were average at best. He looked like a guy playing at being a wrestler. There was nothing about him that screamed 'top guy', and the booking didn't help. I don't see any real comparisons with Edge. I wasn't comparing them as wrestlers in terms of their talent or upside, just the situations they found themselves in. By that I mean that they were midcard heels who were at the time the "next big thing" when they won MITB and got their push to the top. A lot of other guys seemed to luck into the briefcase, but they were clearly intent on pushing Miz, rightly or wrongly. My point is that they didn't give Edge the briefcase and then throw their hands up and wait for him to cash in. He won the case and he was still a midcard heel looking for a spot. Luckily for his career Lita happened. But also look at the way they booked him in 2005. He won the Gold Rush tournament for a title shot, and ended up with Lita and the sleazy heel act that would propel him to the top. He won the feud with Matt. He was winning the feud with Flair. He slowly started looking more and more like a top guy...and then he cashed in. ..and had a three week transitional reign. But then he had a high profile feud with Foley and got the spectacular win at WM. Moved back into the title picture post-Mania, stole the title back, and then went over RVD and Cena on PPV and finally ended up as a main event level guy, ready to carry Smackdown starting the next year. It was an entire 18 month process from after he won the case to get him to that level. And that is a guy on the level of Edge, not the freaking Miz. So TL;DR, if they really wanted to push Miz to main event level, they needed to do it properly by building him up more beforehand and protecting him by not having him be a) completely ineffective, and an undeserving WWE Champ in a Mania build standing next to Cena and Rock. If he had the same 9 months of time after MITB to make the climb and win some major feuds (in reality he went almost straight from losing the US Title to Bryan to cashing in. I can't even remember what he was doing in October-November, probably lost in the Bragging Rights shuffle.) he may have looked a bit more believable by the time he cashed in. If he cashed in/had his title reign sometime other than during Mania season, he might not have looked so inadequate in comparison to real stars. If they hadn't booked him as a joke during his reign, he may have been able to recover from it after it ended. Maybe in the end none of that matters, because its The Miz and there's just something inherently missing for him to work on top. More and more I am believing that myself. But the way they booked his title reign was a failure, is really my main point.

Actually they just did an instant replay finish in WWE at the Extreme Rules PPV with Del Rio & Swagger. The thing I don't like about this is that, even with the lax continuity laws of wrestling, if they can do that for one match, why can't they do that for every other match?

I think this was pretty much what I was trying to say, expressed much better.

I don't think CTE is an excuse or is necessarily an attempt to explain away a good wrestler. I hardly need to point out the brain scans performed on murderers thing, or the NFL suicides. It doesn't excuse them or mean that they didn't make their own choices to do what they did, but it suggests that there is something on a physical, neurological level that contributed to their brain misfiring in such a way that they were capable of killing someone in cold blood. There's a neurological explanation for most of what we do as humans. That doesn't mean we don't have free will. That doesn't mean someone who does something horrible has no control over it. They most definitely do. On the topic of Benoit though, I think if anything it is a mixture of both. The way Nancy was killed suggests that he was in a pretty violent rage and/or had blacked out, as you say. The fact that he killed Daniel, and then himself, quite a time later suggests something else entirely.

If you need newer matches as well, I think the best TNA match would be the AJ Styles vs Abyss cage match from Lockdown 2005. Or else AJ/Joe from Turning Point 2005. You could even throw in something like the first Joe/Angle match, which isn't great but is quick and super exciting. Cena/Umaga is a no-brainer for modern WWE. Cena/Lesnar too. From PWG there's a London/Generico vs Bucks vs Cutler Bros Guerrilla Warfare match from July 2010 that is a pretty insane, balls out spotfest.

I don't think his reality TV background has anything to do with it, but to me Miz does give off that vibe of a guy playing a wrestler. Maybe it is his lack of an obvious athletic background, or just the way he presents himself or looks, but he just does. Even back in 2010 when he was rising to the top, when he was cutting promos and wearing suits he was gold, but once he stepped in the ring he just...lacked something. And it's not about having great matches or whatever, more just being able to project that you are an elite wrestler in a kayfabe sense. He almost never comes across as legit. I think someone said it above and they're right: in another era Miz would have been a pretty good manager. A guy who can talk, get heat, come off as pretty loathsome but not intimidating, and bump like a nut for babyfaces when required.

I also feel like the timing (in the year) was bad too. Having him win in late November and come into Wrestlemania as champion made him really stand out as a guy who wasn't on that level yet. Especially because the build to WM27 was John Cena and The Rock feuding with each other. He was left looking like a little kid in the background gesticulating wildly trying to get our attention. I often compared his situation to Edge's, and while at the time a lot of people were upset that Edge had a three week reign and they went back to Hunter for WM, I think in the end it worked out much better for him, because he wasn't trying to play a Mania main eventer before he was ready to. Instead he got a big win over Foley on the show and used it to lead into his summer push to the top, where there is less scrutiny. My fantasy plan for Miz was just to delay his cash in until after WM27. So he gets his world title run after Mania where they are able to focus on him, and they have about 9 months from after MITB to build him up to that level, like Edge had.

I think the most ridiculous example of a sport claiming to have a "World Cup" is rugby league, which is contested by Australia, NZ, England and the various Pacific Island nations that they beat in the group stages as tune ups. And yes, pool tables are pretty common in pubs and bars in Australia and everyone has heard of it. Not that it is in any way popular as a sport though.

I don't know I fully believe that. If people had to fight to bring him back, I could see him being brought back at a Justin Gabriel or Heath Slater level to shut them up, but he got a fairly sustained push when he returned at the main event of Summerslam. He was one of the last two standing and he pretty much dominated the feud with the office's golden boy Miz. The only time I think he was in a lull was after he lost the US title to Sheamus and was teaming with Santino in comedy tags. Also, people have to remember that WWE doesn't view wins and loses as serious as some of the hardcore fans do. Bryan lost a lot after he won the MITB, but the important thing was he always had something to do. Someone like the aforementioned Gabriel probably had a better win/loss record than Daniel did at the time, but he was off in the wasteland of C shows, spinning his wheels. Speaking of the losing streak...wasn't it part of a bigger angle to turn him heel? When he won the briefcase, he declared he was going to cash it in at Wrestlemania. He started the losing streak which made him paranoid that he might not be able to win the title in a straight up competition hence him breaking his vow and trying to use it on Mark Henry and successfully using it on Big Show. He became a giant jackass afterward. I think this is a bit of a stretch, unless we are counting simply being on a show the level of Smackdown as having something to do. Bryan had nothing to do from pretty much the moment he won the MITB until the Henry feud started in November to lead to the cash in. He was just a guy who wrestled matches on Smackdown and usually lost. There was no real storyline involved, pretty much all of the "losing streak" stuff was done on the webshows where nobody could see it, until VERY late in the piece. He wasn't Justin Gabriel, but he wasn't doing anything either. I don't consider this a conscious decision to "bury" him either, but I think attributing any significant push or foresight into the really long lull period he had prior to the cash in is giving WWE more credit than they maybe deserve. Bryan was just a recipient of the braindead "Whatever, you have the briefcase, so we can use you as a jobber until you cash it in because hey, you'll be World Champ after that, no harm done!" MITB booking. Same deal as Punk in 2008, Swagger in 2010 (more prior to winning the case though), Alberto in 2011, Dolph in 2012. Look at the intervening period between winning MITB and cashing in. They all spent long periods of time doing little and jobbing a lot. I honestly think WWE's thinking is that becoming a world champ in the end will assuage all of the losses and inactivity. Which is a horrible way to book, but there you go.