MoS

To followers of Tennis, why does Novak Djokovic invoke such Cena-like reactions amongst a lot of Tennis fans, especially those who attend matches at the big tournaments? Passionately loved by some, virulently hated by others. He is clearly the best Tennis player in the world at present, but the chances of him enjoying Hogan-esque universal popularity like Federer and Nadal enjoyed in their pomp is not too great. A few people believe it is racial and ethnic discrimination; who better to understand audience reactions amongst those fault-lines than wrestling fans?

I would have posted this sooner, but I did not realise that there was a football thread here. Can I just say that Messi's performance against Bayern a couple of days ago is one of the greatest performances I have ever seen in sports history? (Please bear in mind that I do not follow American sports, so my sample size is limited.) I know we can all be prisoners of the moment and it is too soon and presumptuous of me to say that, but I do stand by it. In terms of sheer individual performance, it is probably the equivalent of Ric Flair carrying a very green Lex Luger to a 3-3.5 star-match.

Austin said that Triple H has changed tremendously, and he realised that because before recording his podcast with Triple H, he sat and talked to him for one and a half hours, and that conversation was much more enjoyable and interesting than the actual podcast. That is as clear a read-between-the-lines way of saying as is possible that he did not enjoy interviewing him too much because he was very guarded and careful with his answers, and, when on air, instead of conversing with him like a fellow wrestler and a buddy, acted like a very cautious corporate executive, which, to be fair, he is. That is why it is probably a good thing that Jericho is conducting podcasts for the WWE Network now; Jericho seems to be much more okay with acting like a complete and unabashed corporate shill.

Also, El-P, haha, the French anthem is also sort of annoying, even through a musical lens - no offense intended. I have a friend who knows 37 languages, and French is one of them, and he often sings a multitude of national anthems, and the French and the American ones are two of the worst, in my opinion. (I much prefer "America the Beautiful in the case of the U.S.)

This kind of cultural differences always interests me. Here in India, this behaviour would be unacceptable beyond the level of "douchebag wrestling fans trying to be the centre of attention". Such behaviour is illegal here and would be punishable by law. I am opposed to it and I think that a law like this is jingoistic, hypersensitive ridiculous and a clear violation of freedom of speech, but I am in a miniscule minority; most people here would fully support punishment for such behaviour. I'm in the minority too, but the mere singing of the French national anthem makes me cringe. Any kind of jingoism makes me cringe. The racists, sexists and homophobic chants are the worst. People popping for the Dudleys putting women through tables (while THEY were supposed to be heels) kinda summarize everything I hated about the Attitude era. It depends on the presentation, I would say. If women in WWE were considered and portrayed as normal human beings; if they were shown to be people with personalities, with quirks, with strengths and weaknesses, with good traits and bad traits; if they were depicted as talented athletes with normal human characteristics; and the Dudleys were shown to be complete psychopaths who did not care whom they put through tables, and liberally attacked both men and women, then I guess the audience would be justified in cheering them as cool heels who did not give a fuck, similar to how Austin started getting cheered. However, WWE has never been good at considering women anything above mere playthings, and Russo was so shockingly offensive in his portrayal of women that he makes Vince McMahon appear like a radical feminist. Women in WWE were and are portrayed as sex objects; their utility is measured in the size of their breasts; and their worth is limited to how Vince McMahon perceives their physical attractiveness. They are essentialised to their bodies, and any personality traits that make you empathise with someone and get attracted to them beyond a superficial level are nonexistent. So, in this regard, the Dudleys putting women and solely women through tables was definitely misogynistic; the only way these women were annoying them was, as James Potter said about Severus Snape, through existing. To keep this on topic, it also reflects the misogyny of so many fans of the Attitude Era, and why catering to them can be problematic. It makes you look utterly lowbrow.

This kind of cultural differences always interests me. Here in India, this behaviour would be unacceptable beyond the level of "douchebag wrestling fans trying to be the centre of attention". Such behaviour is illegal here and would be punishable by law. I am opposed to it and I think that a law like this is jingoistic, hypersensitive ridiculous and a clear violation of freedom of speech, but I am in a miniscule minority; most people here would fully support punishment for such behaviour.

A lot of ECW fans were quite terrible. I don't care if it was a joke; bringing a sign that said "Cane Dewey" was pretty disgusting. Dewey was a toddler who probably did not even know what his father's profession was is stupid. Foley claims he was outraged, but my impression of him and his "Aw shucks, I am such a nice guy!" gimmick has gone down so low, that I think he was actually delighted, because he knew there could come a time when it would make for good promo material. I realise that is harsh, and I can also be accused of being on a high horse, but I honestly believe it.

I posted in the Meltzer thread about so many fans saying that Debra deserved getting beaten by Austin, and that Austin should have "walked her dry" after "stomping a mudhole in her". Now, according to news reports, a 20-year old fan killed his girlfriend's 18-month baby by doing the Last ride on him, and according to him, "missing the bed". A lot of us play-act and have done so since we were kids, but I do not think an 19-month old has the ability to give informed consent to getting powerbombed. Not to mention, it would have taken extraordinary negligence to miss the bed while performing a powerbomb. What other incidents are there where a few fans of our favourite sport embarrass the sport they profess to love? I want to say claiming that Benoit is innocent, but that might be more of innocent desperation and not despicable behaviour?

Inoki was a track-and-field athlete; he probably would have never wrestled had Rikidozan not recruited him. I can't think of too many similar athletes transitioning to wrestling.

This is not strictly related to Meltzer, but it bears mentioning here. There is a thread in the WWE sub-forum about whether they forgive Austin for his domestic violence against Debra. Almost everyone has answered in the affirmative; some try to justify it by saying that because Austin once hinted there is a bit more to the story, there must be a really good reason for nearly killing your wife with your bare hands; a few actually made it out to be a good thing; some pathetic shitbag said that he sent a few videos of Debra to his mom, and his mom was all "Oh, I totally see why he beat the shit out of her; a bunch of them made some pathetic jokes about how he should have walked it dry - the title of the thread itself is derogatory and makes life of the situation, mentioning J.R's famous phrase about Austin stomping a mudhole. You know, because jokes about domestic abuse are so funny and edgy. Oh those wicked, irreverent rebels; totally sticking it to The Man and the bullshit PC culture. Oh yeah, one of them even decried the "pathetic pussies" who make an issue out of it. He wants a man's world, damn it! How dare they suggest that beating your wife is wrong? Behaviour like this justifies every ignorant, derogatory stereotype there is about wrestling fan. This is not some hick corner buried somewhere in the netherlands of the internet. These are paying customers on the board of the biggest, most famous wrestling journalist there is. I mean, I know people have said that Meltzer despises these people and does not read threads, but Jesus Christ, Dave, this is your board, and the opinions shared on it reflect directly on you. As a wrestling fan, it is incredibly embarrassing to read these posts; how can Dave just turn a blind eye to it? They are not just wrong and insensitive; this is outright sociopathic behaviour; the kind that gets you admitted in an institution. If you are not prepared to be an active moderator, just do away with the board permanently.

^The questionable credentials of the messenger should not detract from the potency of the message. In any case, Austin is probably their biggest money-drawing star and the face of the era they push the most; they cannot exactly ignore him. On the other hand, there really is no reason for Triple H to associate himself with Mayweather beyond hoping desperately for some reflected glory. And I do not really want to say this, because this will look as if I am defending Austin's actions, when I am not attempting to do so at all, but Austin has, at worst, maintained the veneer of accepting his mistakes and changing himself for the better; his wrongs will never really be righted, but the fact that he is happily married now with no sign of controversy shows that he has the argument of no longer being the person who did those heinous crimes many years ago. Mayweather, on the other hand, has not shown a hint of remorse for the many many instances of domestic abuse over a timespan of 15 years; on the contrary, he disparages the media for focusing on them, claiming they are prejudiced against him because he is "rich and black". There is absolutely no reason to assume he has changed in the slightest; the fact that he refused credentials to journalists who had focused on his transgressions is ample proof of that. Mayweather is also a much bigger star than Austin, and is in the spotlight much more, with all the baggage that comes with him. The fact that Triple H still focuses to associate with him despite the entire world hating him for his misogyny just makes WWE look desperate and shameless.

Lou was not the only petty old-timer, but because he became the final word on wrestling in his era, and because so many people feel he is the greatest wrestler that ever lived, his pettiness gets magnified, with people quoting him to "definitively" prove why Buddy Rogers and Ric Flair are horrible wrestlers. That is what I meant.

For her to satisfy the trifecta of Hall of Fame, her "impact" and her performance needs to be good. For her to not be the most cancerous sore on the wrestling industry, her impact needs to be not be the most alarmingly destructive the industry has never seen. She fails on both accounts. As a performer, she made El Gigante look like Toshiaki Kawada. That bled over to her training: all Moolah proteges wrestled in the same hair-pulling, screaming shitty style that she used. As a booker of women's wrestling, not only did she use her power to hold back talent for 30 fucking years, she also was directly responsible in the devolution of women's wrestling from a reasonably respectable style of wrestling to a pathetic sideshow carnival; bearded women in circuses had more respect than women's wrestling did in her reign of terror. Mildred Burke was not the draw Jim Londos was in her time, but she was good enough to fill out arenas as a performer. No woman in the U.S.A drew a single dime after Moolah took over until horny teenagers started buying Sable merchandise. That is how destructive she was. She killed an entire sub-genre of wrestling, and was greedy enough to pocket most of the money the women did make. If you are going to measure impact in that way, then Jamie Kellner and Vince Russo should also be in the Hall of Fame.

I have always been curious about Lou Thesz as a draw. From what I understand, he was a very consistent draw, and had great longevity, but his peaks were not particularly great. I also sort of dislike him for being so petty and jealous about a lot of wrestlers. Someone once said that you could gauge your success by Lou's feelings for you: if you were successful, Lou was automatically jealous and resentful of you, and bad-mouthed you as much as he could. He is certainly not the only wrestler who has done that, but seeing how he is considered the pre-eminent authority on all things wrestling pre-60s, his jealousy and pettiness have been more insidiously harmful than most others. I also sometimes think that he did not really understand what pro wrestling was about, judging from his thoughts about Buddy Rogers. Who cares if Rogers could not hookyou with a legit wristlock as well as Thesz could? He was a huge draw, and that is what really matters. Anyway, sorry for the tangential rant. How does Lou compare to Ric and Dory in drawing ability?

I do not think counting the 90s would be really fair, seeing how the NWA was less than a shell of its former self. I am more interested in how Ric in the 80s compares to other NWA World champions. And while longevity is certainly a factor, I would also like to know which wrestlers' peak as draws was the highest. I am assuming it was Buddy Rogers, but how does Dory at his peak compare to Flair at his peak? I confess that when I talked about worst-performing world champions, I was thinking of Dick Hutton. Garvin was no Hulk Hogan, but I do not think he was ever put in any meaningful position to succeed and draw.

I did not want to derail the thread about the different working styles of NWA World Champions, but I am curious as to who, according to historians, is the best drawing NWA World Champion of all-time. I realise that comparing drawing across various eras is difficult, but this seems an easier task than comparing Austin and Bruno as draws, which a lot of discussions have done. Principally because the job of the NWA World Champion largely remained the same for 4 decades, while the job of the WWWF Champion during the 60s and the WWF Champion during the Attitude Era was radically different. My wholly uneducated opinion had always said that Flair drew the most as an NWA World Champion, ut considering he was essentially JCP World Champion for the second half of the 80s, that is probably incorrect. So, who are in the upper-tier of NWA World champions in drawing ability? Who performed abysmally and were utter failures?

^^ This is slightly off-topic, but did Dory draw more money than Terry and Flair? I had always kind of assumed that Flair was the biggest-drawing NWA World Champion of all time. How good was Dory as a draw?

Well, now that it is destroyed, and people are talking about it, by sheer co-incidence, I was going through an old thread and I found this - http://wrestlingperspective.com/working.html Not arguing for or against kayfabe, but that site is fascinating.

Rock at WM 17 and WM 18 have to be the most famous examples in modern wrestling, right? Actually, Rock was booed quite a bit even at his peak as a top babyface. I remember him getting booed against Angle and Jericho as well. He was almost like a forerunner to Cena, except he would give it right back.

I have never heard the story of Vince disliking Rock's role in Be Cool. What did he think? Was it anything more than "WWE's top star shouldn't play a gay man because fuck you, that's why"? Also, what is the story behind his contract not being renewed in 2004? What happened? Was Vince upset because he was spending so much time away in Hollywood? Was it his own decision, or did disgruntled full-time wrestlers talk him into it?

I am a newbie to puroresu. I have just started following 90s AJPW consistently. While I have been blown away by what I have seen, as someone who is a mark for the business side of things, I am very interested to know, since the inception of the two companies, which of the two companies was bigger and was drawing more money. I would like to know throughout their period of existence, which company was on top; when they got replaced; what were the periods of dominance of both companies; when and how they exchanged the numero uno spot in Japan. Bear in mind that I do not know if other companies ever beat these two and were at the top, although I have heard that UWF and later NOAH were ahead of these two at various points of time. So, if someone could fill in the blanks for me with regard to the other companies, I would be extremely grateful as well. Thanks in advance!

Ah, okay. Storm in a teacup, I guess. What do people here think of Rock jumping the gun? I am sure that had it happened today, when everything is so controlled and micro-managed, it would be considered hugely unprofessional. But, given Nash's record of undercutting opponents in promos, maybe he had it coming? Although, I do believe that Rock was so good at working the mic then that even if Nash had struck first, Rock would still have got his heat back and then some. I have no doubt that one way or another, the segment would have ended with Rock on top and Nash fuming. And fuck Nash for saying his character wouldn't stand for it. As Smack2k said above, his character was that he would attack in groups and often attack sneakily. Plus, I would argue that he never had met anyone like The Rock in WCW before; WCW simply did not have cocky faces who ran their mouths and talked trash. Unless those cocky faces were Nash, Hogan and co. I honestly see no locus standi here.

Interesting. Yes, his character was never selling his opponent's insults and laughing in their faces and being a smug bitch about it, making his opponent look bad. It was a trait his good buddy Triple H also had. As a matter of interest, did he get to use all six of his moves? I remember Nash tweeting Rock after his WM 29 injury and wishing him to get better. He does like to have friends in high places. And I know I am being a complete mark for this non-event, but whom did the wrestlers side with? Was that reported?

I have heard about it a few times, but do not know exactly what happened. Was there a backstage fight? Did they shoot on each other in promos, ala Shawn's "Sunny Days" comment? If someone could tell me exactly what happened on Raw or SD! as a part of said heat, I will be very grateful, as I want to see it for myself and will check those shows out. And if someone was reading The Observer back then, can they tell me what happened backstage relating to the fight? What their complaints were? Whom did the wrestlers support? I imagine Triple H, for obvious reasons, supported Nash. I thought about this because there are reports floating about that Rock got legit pissed at Philadelphia booing him and was thinking about the other times Rock has got pissed.

Yeah I finally sucumbed to the Network and ordered just so I can watch the Rumble. I enjoyed it anyway shame the internet kids didnt but hey they expect too much. Regarding cropping they did this for years on their official DVDs before they finally changed it. Never had a issue with the stretched pic on the dvds before this. You = an internet kid. If you must slander people for having a different opinion from you, then at least use better slander. And I do not think expecting any of the over faces to look strong is "expecting too much", but I won't begin to debate with you on it, because your post is so ridiculous it does not merit debate.