MoS

It still sometimes surprises me how old Flair started looking so suddenly. In 2002, he still looked no more than 40, and pretty fucking badass. Until his last few months, Dusty looked younger than Flair does now. And I really wish Charlotte had inherited Flair's mic skills.

That was pretty funny. I don't even know where he was going with that word.

What's better than 3 McMahons on television? 4 McMahons on television!

That alcohol story with Shawn in his book was really something to read. Both came across as absolute tools.

They did try very hard with Sin Cara, at least as first. I haven't seen any of his Mexico work, but a lot of lucha experts say that he was fundamentally different from Mysterio, in that he was completely used to working on top and being a dominant babyface. They should have really sent him to developmental, so that he could learn the style he would be working in WWE, because there was no chance of him being pushed that way. I am not sure anyone would ever be as over as Mysterio was in the Mysterio role - he was the perfect case of the right man possessing the right skills at the right time - but Cara could have been much over than he got.

I'll agree with all that, and add one more important thing that everyone seems to forget: that's how Shawn ALWAYS works as a heel. Go back and watch his matches from 1997 with Undertaker, and you'll see him taking those exact same giant goofy bumps that he did in the Hogan match. Also, that 1.6 million was just domestic. I don't think any WWE PV has ever broken the 1 million ceiling domestically. IIRC, WM 17 came closest with 975k approximately.

This hurts me. Not because I think you are being unfair; with the exception of intangibles, where I would give Bobby an easy 10, I actually agree with all other scores. But seeing Bobby Heenan get a score of 20 hurts my feelings. That man is perhaps the greatest performer in wrestling history.

As you said, it is subjective, but I believe Eddie clearly had more intangibles than Shawn. The only time Shawn jumped out to me as a charismatic character was when he was playing the dickhead heel in late 1997, and even that was partly due to a knowledge of backstage events.

I think Austin deserves more than a 3 in great matches. His 2001 run alone should get him a 6. I don't know how much you have seen of him, but I would be interested in seeing you rank Daniel Bryan.

I was going through a very old thread on Classics where people were debating Shawn's place in the WON Hall of Fame. Someone did a Gordy list on him, and mentioned the Bret-Shawn feud as a defining feud of the era. It was countered by people - I think one of them was jdw - saying that it was mostly a "rivalry", as their matches were mostly a series of infrequent, disjointed matches, with no real rhythm to them. A match in 1992, the WM 12 main event, and the Survivor Series one. As such, it could not be classified as a feud, much less an epic one. That leads into a larger question: how do you distinguish between the two terms? If they just had one-offs at infrequent intervals, then I guess it could have just been a rivalry. And had they just stopped at the WM 12 main event, I would have guessed. But even if they had just one match after that, 1997 was in large revolving around them, whether it was the individual tension between them, or between their two factions. An argument can be made that they were crucial in keeping the company heated after Austin-Hart Foundation had lit a fire under their ass. I would argue Shawn was never as over as he was when he was playing the dickhead heel wiping his nose with the Canadian flag and fornicating with it on PPV. More to the point: does a rivalry stop being a rivalry and become a feud when it is pushed afterwards as having so many iconic, legendary moments? People were also saying in the Bret-Austin thread that it was not a proper feud, because it had no satisfying ending. I am curious to see how people distinguish between the two, in this case as well as in general.

The Bret-Austin I Quit match has captivated every first-time viewer I have shown it to.

Discovered this thread. My two personal favourite "Western" musical acts are The Beatles and Bill Simmons. Close to them would basically be every song Supernatural has ever featured. "Knocking on Heaven's Door", "Smoke on the water", "renegade", and for some inexplicable reason, "Heartbreaker", by Pat Benatar. But I wanted to post this because, while it never surprises me, it does rather make me sad that most hugely passionate and knowledgeable music fans have never heard or know anything about Indian music. I think, to most Americans, Indian music would be "that song in SLumdog Millionaire". And probably Khali's entrance theme, if you're a modern day wrestling fan. India has a tradition of music as diverse and rich as America, I would argue, although of course, it hasn't necessarily touched the peaks of American/British greats.

I would say John Cena. He is not a particularly good bumper, can be very inconsistent with selling, has facial expressions that range from comical to embarrassing, and is far from being a snug worker. He is very fit, but also rather clunky. However, somehow, especially on big-match occasions, things seem to click and get placed together in a way which seems impossible. Whether it is because of his immense physical charisma, which smooths over a lot of flaws, or that connection with the audience he has, or because through sheer attrition, he almost wills the match quality above what it should be, but he has a list of excellent matches which he almost had no right to have.

Another thing to consider is the double turn at WM 13, with J.R yelling "Austin passed out! He did not submit, he did not give up, but he passed out!" That image of Austin, face covered in blood, screaming in agony might be the most iconic wrestling image ever. Unlike the Austin 3:16 moment, where in retrospect you realise it was a game-changer, but at that time was basically considered just a strong promo, you sort of knew after the doublt-turn that this would be a famous moment. Along the same lines is Hogan turning heel and fans pelting the ring with garbage. I think that is the most outraged wrestling fans have been in modern wrestling. Bischoff often says that the Turner offices were inundated with angry letters from fans.

He said in the Daniel Bryan radio show linked above that something very bad happened to Nick Bockwinkel in his last years; something like "I don't want to talk about it right now, but everyone knows, and it is very sad". What is he talking about? I did not even know Nick was suffering a lot in his ifnal years, although in hindsight I should have realised he was going to, seeing how he wrestled full-time well into his 50s.

Edge got inducted a year later, but he announced his reitrement after the HoF ceremony. Flair got inducted the same year, but it was obvious that they had been building the entire storyline to culminate in an induction. So, no precedent to speak of.

I do not exactly get what "cerebral assassin" means as well. He does what, play mind games to psychologically beat you and make you doubt yourself? I have a hard time believing that the "dick joke, dick joke, something something ass, homophobic slur, claim that I am going to beat you and destroy you, 4-on-1 Horsemen style beatdowns" template is the best way to show psychological mastery.

To talk about something no one has in this thread, I do not get the "Ambulance" match and the stretcher match gimmicks. What is the point of them, apart from making the nhb concept unnecessarily contrived? Where, instead of being brutal with chairs and stuff, you just keep trying to gently wheel someone on a stretcher past the yellow line. Or try to throw them in the ambulance. Disclaimer - I have only watched the stretcher matches in WWE in the last decade and a half. Brock-Show and Edge-Kane are the ones I remember the most. It is entirely possible that other promotions have held brilliant stretcher matches.

Brain, I dislike HHH too, but credit where it is due, he performed brilliantly in the Foley street fight. It was the first time he had done anything of that sort, and he absolutely came through. It was not your typical "HHH main event heel performance in a self-bloated so-called epic" that he has done to death in such a way that he makes me cry every time he as much as shows up on TV. Same with the D-Bry match. Bryan of course was the better wrestler, but Hunter more than carried his share of the load. That said, the list involving HHH that I am interested in is not this one, since he would not make my top 500, but that infamous list Dylan made of "100 wrestlers who had a better 2000 than Triple H". I heard about it for the first time on an HHH podcast where he participated, along with Will (I think) and a couple of others, and have since then tried a lot to find it somewhere on the internet, but no luck.

Owen's outrage at the end was priceless haha.

Don't think there is too much of late 96-mid 97, which is when he was truly finding his feet and exploring his character. Most of the stuff on YT is the greatest hits compilation when he became the biggest star on Earth.

So many things that Austin did were so innovative at that time for modern WWF, you have to give him a lot of credit for going out there and seizing his opportunity with both hands and making it count. I remember when he was once cutting a promo, and the mic went out, and he made what would have been an embarrassing gaffe of production into a great scene when he just straight-up turned and said "You're gonna give me a piece of equipment that works, son, or do I need to come down and whoop your ass?" Going back and watching him find himself and his character week by week has been a really fun experience.

I was at Mania 13. I remember Austin's promo during the pre-show, when he said, "Bret, you keep talking about getting screwed, well I'm not bringing a condom to the ring, just a can of whoop-ass", or something like that. The buzz from the crowd after that was so great. That, the pop when he unwrapped the chair from his ankle and hit Bret with it, and the drama of the final sharpshooter were the moments where I really realized WWE had something special. Unrelated, but how vicious was the audience hate for Rock? Bret has claimed in his book that all the boos and "Die Rocky Die" chants were done by a handful of ECW supporters who used to travel to every show and boo him. Of course, Chicago has a reputation now, but I do not know if it was considered a smark city in 97 as well.

Yeah, pretty much. No one in their right mind thinks that he is De Niro in acting skill and talent - ironically, his movies are actually better than many of De Niro's recent flicks - and no one really even wants him to do something different. That said, action heroes have in the past at least tried to do something different; more intimate, more emotional. The Rock did sort of do that with Pain and Gain and his bit role in Be Cool, and they were not very successful, so I do not see him trying to break the mould too much, at least not in the near future.

HHH might hate Rock, but Rock is a genuine Hollywood superstar at a time when star-power in Hollywood is at an all-time low, and is also extremely loved in internet circles for stuff like lip-sync battles. Meanwhile, even HHH is not deluded enough to not realise that WWE might be the lowest they have been in popularity and buzz since the dark days of mid-90s. He will be begging Rock to come visit as much as he can. Really, how many times Rock turns up will be on Rock.