MoS

It is also hilarious that it is Kevin Nasht alking about how he could not work 25-30 minutes. Because we all have seen a litany of classic 25-30 minute- Kevin Nash matches. Give me a Goldberg match over a Kevin Nash match any day. Also, to those who know, is it true that Kevin Nash sold more merchandise as part of The Outsiders than Goldberg? I have seen a few claim that.

I am sorry, but I hate it when people condescendingly dismiss someone's popularity as fans being brainwashed and indoctrinated. It is obnoxious and entirely uncalled for. I am not even saying you are completely wrong. Propaganda does play a part in someone's popularity to an extent, but it can never be 90% or anywhere close to that ballpark. I come from India, and wrestling fans here, whom you would describe as the most casual of casuals, genuinely love Michaels. Part of that IS down to being pushed like a legend, but that is only a part of it Otherwise, they would have loved Hunter as much as they love Shawn, but that is not true. Shawn has plenty of fans who love him in an organic, non-doctrinating way, and it is extremely stupid and delusional to think that people think Shawn is great only because that is how WWE markets him. I am sorry I come across as being rude, but this to me, is a very sanctimonious talking point, and not accurate. I do agree, however, that Shawn's marketing has been WAYY over the top, and worthy of a million eye-rolls, for what it is worth.

Throwing my two cents in: coming from a country which has only the most casual of casual fans, you would be surprised at just how beloved Shawn is. The guy is loved almost as much as Cena. Part of it has to do with his being pushed as a legend and as the Showstopper, but I do not think it explains it all. People genuinely love him here, just like they love Cena and Rey. Not as much as 'Taker and Khali, but quite a lot nevertheless. Also, I am not sure if this is relevant or not, but I was reading an old thread where people were saying Shawn does not put anyone over, which I found was interesting, because the one criticism which most fans here have is that he lost a tad too much, and that his WM record is abysmal. My cousin always laughs at how much Shawn loses, and how he has lost to almost everyone. Which makes me think that had he lost more, he would not have been nearly as beloved. People would always be surprised here when he won, as opposed to when he lost. I know this is strictly anecdotal, but I do believe it counts for something. I would always be ostracized for having the temerity to suggest that Austin and Rock were better than HBK. I guess that was why he had c career as long as he did post-comeback. I might not be making much sense, and this might be irrelevant, but I just thought I would share it. Sometimes we live in our own little bubble, and it is difficult to see outside it.

He said that the Rock threw some shitty elbows, and that would not have been the case had HE thrown them. I'd consider that a bit of a jab, no? I thought that was just a joke. Austin and Rock have always laughed about how much Steve hates the People's Elbow.

I loved how Rock so non-chalantly just picked up the blade after Hebner had tripped and dropped it.

I don't think he took any little jabs at Rock at all. He just said they had to be careful with the blade job because Rock was going away to film a movie.

Seeing how horrible he was at handling crowd reactions, he can only improve. John Cena is also good at handling crowd reactions. While he does not heel it up like Rock does, he remains unflustered, and often responds to a "You can't wrestle" by busting out a bunch of chain wrestling moves, for example, I think his responses to hostile crowds, like ONS in 2006 and MitB in 2011 were extemely laudable.

On an unrelated note, The Rock was really great at working the crowd and feeding off reactions. Joe brought up Batista getting flustered and having no idea how to react to the crowd turning on him. Contrast that with Rock getting booed against Hogan or against Lesnar, and how he managed to work the fans by heeling it up and amplifying the reactions. It was a win-win situation; everyone came out having a better time. The only time when he did not do it was against Austin at WM 17, and that was because Austin was supposed to turn heel.

Aren't the "Tributes" books just edited versions of the obits published in the Observer? Maybe a one-month subscription to the Observer site might be the better option, assuming the JYD issue is online. (Anyone know?) One thing to be aware of though: the newsletters are probably much messier grammatically than the books. Yeah, I tried that. The issue is not yet online. I think it would take another year or so before it gets online. Thanks anyway, much appreciated.

Not sure where you're from, but if you go on Highspots (http://www.highspots.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=HS&Category_Code=Books&Product_Code=&Search=&Per_Page=20&Sort_By=price_asc) they have both Tributes books marked down. Don't think it was ever released on Kindle, might have something to do with the big photos used (although with tablets, that's not as big of an issue anymore). Thanks, but I am from India, and I cannot afford to ship the book. The cost would be too high. I was looking for a soft copy online, but no site seems to have it. Specifically, I wanted to read the section on Junkyard Dog. Is it possible to find that online somewhere?

Is there a place where I can get a Kindle version of Tributes? Amazon does not seem to have it.

I think Austin was very clumsy, but, strangely, that added to his matches instead of taking away from them. It added a sense of gritty realism and urgency to his matches, and it ties to the larger point of being very easy to be sucked into his matches. There would be times when he would deliver a steel chair shot, and would himself fall over doing it. Stuff like that, to me, would sort of build the madcap speed and the whirlwind nature of his matches. He was not one of the most fluid guys on the roster, and he used that to his advantage.

This is an absolutely fascinating read. Loss, can you do something bout the formatting of old threads like this? The line breaks disappear and reading blocks of text is a very tedious task. As for Hogan-Austin comparisons, I have Hogan above Austin for precisely what he helped Vince do in the 80s. Although Austin at his peak was probably a bigger dra than Hogan at his peak, the sheer importance of Hogan's run is too much. However, Austin made the WWF into such a gargantuan money-making machine that the brand, to this date, is a huge draw, surviving numerous scandals. That is not something you can say about Hogan. The WWE has never been in as bad a shape as it was in the mid-90s, and Austin deserves some credit for it.

I am mighty biased here, because Austin and his brawls got me into wrestling, but for all the supposed formulaic nature of his brawling, he managed to keep the pace strong and never let the energy sag during his brawls, which is a huge factor in judging the quality of his brawls. Definitely not the GOAT for brawling in my eyes, (that would be Hansen) but he is very, very good in my opinion at brawling. The fire in his eyes, his defiance and his movements, his energy, his ability to get people involved in his comebacks are all incredible. He was incredible at getting the character work shine through during his matches. I remember Unforgiven, when all he did was come out, stun Steve Blackman, and stun Shane McMahon 3 times. If anyone else had done that, it would have been a waste of 10 minutes. But, Austin made it extremely entertaining. And the crowd heat throughout was out of the world. It was amazing to watch.

To the people who know, what do the numbers say about the shows Bruno headlined during the 80s? I have heard him claim more than once that the numbers would drop because the law of diminishing returns would apply to hogan like Parv said, and he had to be brought back to the ring to boost up the numbers. did Bruno manage to do that? I would count that as a huge plus in the post-prime category if he did manage to do it, for the sheer longevity of it.

i mostly agree about the special connection which Bruno had, and I agree that Austin was an overnight sensation while Bruno's legend was moulded and crafter with time. I do not want to turn this into an Austin v. Bruno debate, but I would say that while his pops were loudest for his entrance and his stunners, the crowd would be molten hot throughout. The reason I say this is because I do think Austin was genuinely loved by the audience just like Bruno was. I remember MSG chanting his name all the time during his match with 'Taker, at Summerslam, for example. And I do think Austin would have burnt out in 20 years, but that is more because of how much exposure he had during his time. It is interesting you say he would have burnt out, because the reason I thought of this is because Meltzer was talking about his heel turn when he compared him to Bruno, and said there was a reason Bruno never turned, and Austin should not have either. In any case, I thought no one got pops like Austin did, and then I saw Bruno. I would still give Austin the edge there, but that is more due to crowd demographics and better sound equipments. The pin-drop silence after he lost his title in 1972 is probable the most eerie moment in wrestling. Also, is Ric Flair's allegation about Bruno receiving crickets in St. Louis is true? I mean, I obviously do not expect the reception to be like MSG, but Bruno has always said that he got big pops wherever he went because fans knew him because of all the New York magazines.

I remember once Meltzer compaing Austin to Bruno and Rock to Hogan in terms of connection with the crowd. I think that is an interesting comparison to make. Rock was larger-than-lie and had the superstar charisma of Hogan. Austin had Bruno's genuine, earthy charisma, and a sense of belonging which the crowd felt. Do you agree with that comparison, Parv?

I want to thank Dylan for pimping the PR stuff. The Colon feud is one of the best feuds I have seen. If his All-Japan stuff is as good as this, and I am going to delve into it shortly, then he would be No. 1 in my book.

I would like to chime in to show my support for PWO. I am a 21-year old from India who has never had access to anything but WWE and had not heard of dirtsheets for the first 6-7 years of his fandom. As such, this place is a goldmine for me, and gives so many opportunities to learn about wrestling, something I love from the bottom of my heart. It is like going to school. I understand the criticism about hive mentality, but if anything, it has been beneficial to me. I came here thinking Shawn Michaels was legitimately the greatest wrestler the world has ever seen, and then I saw a bunch of intelligent posts breaking down Shawn's weaknesses in minute detail, and I learned so much. That, to me, is the strength of PWO: the intensive discussions. That should be encouraged. Although I still believe Shawn was a very good wrestler, for example, I have learned to appreciate the chinks in his armour a lot more. Thumbs up to PWO for that. I do not even post much. Just lurk here and soak up the information.

I do not like the Iron Man match, but I do not think Shawn can be faulted for it. I thought he put in a great performance in it. That said, the way the last 1 minute was put together really pisses me off. If Shawn has so little time left, why on earth would he try an elbow drop, a move that has NEVER brought him a pinfall victory? Why would he waste time going to the top at all? I know this is not the thread, but for all of Bret's criticism about internal logic in Flair's matches, this one was ridiculous to say the least.

I do not see how you can make an argument that Rock did not push himself to get better, seeing how he upped his game significantly when there was an influx of talent in 2000, and in general, it can be said that all facets of his work improved with each passing year. 2003 saw some of his best work. It was said that he would watch his tapes to see how he could improve himself. And charisma is an integral part of being a pro wrestler, in my opinion. It cannot be separated.

I would put him in the lower sections of the top 100. Probably the best mic worker at getting the fans involved, was really good at getting his heat back after losing, was a very enthusiastic seller, and had quite a lot of great matches. Crowd reactions were second only to Austin, and that added to the heat of the match.

Stone Cold is the reason I am a wrestling fan today. I would argue no WWE ace evoked more passionate reactions than Austin at his peak. He is the greatest "TV worker" inWWE history. He did the little things so well, selling, evoking sympathy, showing fire against all odds. He was brilliant at making his in-ring work seem like an extension of his character, and playing his character all the time. Definitely top ten for me.

I would not agree. As Chris Jericho said, Austin's pops were always a shade above Rock's pops, and I would argue this was true even for 2000, which is a distant third in terms of Austin's overall overness behind 98/99. Although I do wonder why it is always Austin who is compared with Hogan for measuring the most popular WWE wrestler of all time. Should Rock not be in the discussion as well? He certainly belongs with them, and it can be argued, has better numbers than them as well. This, of course, is without counting his successful movie career.

The Background - Not many know this, but The Undertaker is hugely popular in India. Like, Bret Hart-in-Germany level popular. He has always been. So, they got Brian Lee to play The Undertaker in a Hindi movie, matching him up against one of the industry's most popular action stars, Akshay Kumar. He essentially played The Undertaker, a wrestler in an underground wrestling business. In this clip, he takes on Crush, who is sadly uncredited, in a fight literally to the death. It is a fun little match, although the psychology is all wrong - a Tombstone is treated as less dangerous than a drop toe hold, for instance. But it is worth checking out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3nPu5x9pLc P.S - I do not know if Pro Wrestling Mostly is the more appropriate forum for this, so if a moderator wants to move it to that forum, I will not complain.