FedEx227

My study on CM Punk as a Hall of Famer: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/09/11/is-cm-punk-a-hall-of-famer/

That seems really unrealistic given the time of his debut, steroids were already heavily "en vogue" among weight lifters and body builders. I have a hard time believing JYD of all people was the one to make the wrestling world realize their aesthetic benefit.

Define lunatic?

I found quotes from a book written about JYD specifically stating that JYD WAS on the ballot before but fell off. They could have just been blowing smoke but there was almost a page and a half about JYD's candidacy. If we were wrong, I apologize. Is there any place that could possibly have these old issues or ballots? Here's the Greg Klein book talking about JYD's candidacy: http://books.google.com/books?id=HHhrb3EvVWUC&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=junkyard+dog+wrestling+observer+hall+of+fame&source=bl&ots=fi8I3jVsT-&sig=OySqpNaPqvIPSSbQJXnnGnLpIoo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=phcPVLXaD9GTgwTVh4GAAQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=junkyard%20dog%20wrestling%20observer%20hall%20of%20fame&f=false

I personally think the best thing they can do (given their new business model) is not have Brock on Raw whatsoever. You want to see Brock? You buy the damn Network. You want to see the current WWE Champion? He wrestlers on the Network only.

I don't think Vader should have won. Michaels was fine as the champion at that point. The problem was how Vader was booked throughout the match and just how convoluted and annoying the match was. Two restarts, a bunch of chaos, Vader looked like a gigantic moron for getting himself DQ'd, etc.

Eva carries herself in the ring like a normal person that just so happened to be in a wrestling ring. Maybe you go to a show and the rings still set up so you do a few moves you know, you're kinda smiling, laughing along the way, etc. She has no instincts after months and months of training, none.

The shaky cam seems to be a fairly recent development, and made WWE all but un-watchable. The constant cuts has been going on a bit longer, but I think it started within the past 5 years. Anybody have any idea what prompted Dunn to make these changes? Him and Vince finally saw the first Transformers? No seriously, it's probably something like that. WWE needs a total and complete overhaul of how they produce television if anything just to give a jolt to the product. There's very few things that differentiate it from a 2007 show and that's not good.

In your mind, what are the objective standards? The reason I feel so strongly that standards DO change is I put a lot of stock in crowd reaction and how the crowd reacts to your match. There are non-changing aspects of getting the crowd into your match but as has been stated 20k times throughout this thread what popped a crowd in 1983 doesn't necessarily do so in 2014.

I've read a lot of people saying the ending was super predictable, which, why has that become a bad thing? That ending is 100% exactly how you should build up the event. I didn't even need Brock F5ing one of the legends, it didn't matter because he made them all shit their pants. Cena came out to stop him and Lesnar just walked away, we'll do it on Sunday, I don't need to touch you now. I thought it was fucking perfect.

Of course different crowds react to things differently. That's not the same thing as implying that there is some magic objective standard that changes with time and that makes it "unfair" to give your opinion on older matches, which is what most of the "standards change" talk seems to argue. That last part was a strawman and I won't argue or discuss it, I don't think that's at the center of the argument despite people on this board THINKING it's the center of the argument. It's not a strawman given that for it to even be possible for standards to change, there need to be some established standards the first place. For that to be possible, we would need some sort of God-given universal criteria for what makes a good match, instead of it just being people giving opinions based on their own unique subjective criteria.. That is clearly absurd. If the point you're making is more along the lines of "different people like different things" or "different wrestlers do different moves," then why not just say that? The huge argument and seeming misinterpretation makes it obvious "standards change" is a horrible way to describe whatever you're going for. The argument is (as far as I can tell, even though it's went into 15,000 directions) is: does the standard of what constitutes a good wrestling match change/evolve? My point is the basic, barebones standards have not changed, nobody really ever argued that. But... a lot of the delivery methods have indeed changed from 1950 or whatever to the present and thus the overall conclusion is that by and larges standards have changed/evolved.

Agreed. Which is why I haven't been as adamant about arguing this topic even when it was going on because I think there's definition issues and instead of finding that middle ground people argued in circles. The standards as far as what makes a truly good wrestling match have not changed whatsoever but the delivery methods in some cases absolutely have. Doesn't mean there aren't outliers or extremes on both ends.

He does the exaggerating breathing then Sunday he comes out and gladhands, smiles and works the same as always. Pass.

Of course different crowds react to things differently. That's not the same thing as implying that there is some magic objective standard that changes with time and that makes it "unfair" to give your opinion on older matches, which is what most of the "standards change" talk seems to argue. That last part was a strawman and I won't argue or discuss it, I don't think that's at the center of the argument despite people on this board THINKING it's the center of the argument.

I totally get what you're saying here and that's been one of the huge issues with this discussion both on this forum and on Twitter, etc. When Joe and I do eventually get Dylan on the podcast, I think this will be an awesome discussion. Execution, absolutely, that has stayed the same. The idea of getting a crowd into the work and into the story of the match has never changed, a lot of what worked in 1950 works today. The inherent difference though is what a lot of people and what you in your post considered "stuff" is night and day. Fans today react to "stuff" that would've be so alien in 1950, they'd probably burn those people are a stake. Someone like Ricochet gets over today on stuff that is unthinkable 50 years ago. There are guys as you mentioned, like a Thatcher, who can stick work a style not unlike one you'd see in 1950 and it works fine but by and large, what most wrestling fans expect from a good match is not what would constitute a good match in 1950. We had a bearhug discussion on Twitter a week or so ago and you mentioned a few guys who made bearhugs work (Henry, Andre). Regardless of guys who really made it work, it was commonplace in wrestling for years (even as I was still growing up). If Rusev came onto Raw tonight and locked Swagger into a bearhug for 10 minutes, he'd be booed out of the arena and the crowd would be chanting CM Punk and other non sense. You could argue, it's not being built up properly (which I agree) but the fact that this was commonplace in major wrestling some 20 years ago and now would incite a riot, is evidence that by and large, standards have changed.

I think there's far more good around the world in 1994 than bad. Speaking specifically in America, I really enjoyed WWF's main event offerings all year including a perfectly built Owen/Bret half-year long feud, Yokozuna's last run on top and a lot of decent matches on Raw featuring Razor, 1-2-3 Kid, Diesel's rise, HBK's continued rise and more. 1994 WCW, yeah, first half is a lot of fun then Hogan's bros come in and it kind of goes to shit.

Kinda scary how fast that happened, but why should I care if he can still perform? People have been trained (by WWE) to only accept wrestlers as peak physical conditioned athletes when it's largely bullshit. Some guys can perform just as well even with a little flab. The problem I see, is devotion and that's why I'm okay that WWE wants their guys to at least look like they are in decent shape. You're married to your body in that company and you should at some level want to look good, want to workout and want to be at your athletic peak if possible. Doesn't affect my enjoyment whatsoever, but I totally understand their reasoning.

Some guys on the Observer board looked at the timeline and it was right around that time when Stephanie got pregnant so clearly he was trying to get off everything. He's since, "gotten back into shape"

I can't stand it either. It simply doesn't work for a team that had the cache of The Shield for as long as they did. Any attempts to re-create that will seem cheap and forced.

I'm working on a rather lengthy piece about the Invasion right now and watching some of the old shows. I agree with some of the bigger stars it could've been better but I'm not sure they would've been able to pull it off anyway. It wasn't even the way they used the big stars but they had no clue what they were doing, even with the guys they had. Who are the faces? Who are the heels? Are the WCW guys evil or should we cheer for them? Shane's a babyface, but he's also running WCW who are heels? We liked most of these guys a few weeks ago but now they are attacking WWE heels and we're supposed to hate them because we're loyal to WWE? It just never made sense, I don't think having Scott Steiner would've greatly improved it one way or another.

For all those wondering — Dylan owes us money from a bet and instead of allowing him to just pay us back, we've set him up for a lifetime of servitude hate-watching TNA. It's essentially Mystery Science Theater 3000.

My work day just got better. Thanks guys.

I think you hit it on the head Jayme, it's ultimately the company's job to create and cultivate people that the majority of the fans hate or like. It's not easy, but it never was. It took well-crafted booking, obvious splits and an understanding of what your fans wanted to do it in the past. Stone Cold Steve Austin is the perfect example of them taking what was established as "bad guy" behaviors and turning them into "good guy" behaviors by giving him an easily hateable enemy. That isn't unlike Daniel Bryan vs. The Authority. If you do a good job creating heels and faces, the fans even the "smart ones" will respond how you want them. If you create a bunch of shades of grays who trade wins back and forth of course they'll tune it. It also doesn't help that their announcers do little to build these characters or their stories and trail off during matches. If the guys paid to narrate the action can't help but giggle and get themselves over, why shouldn't the fans?

I don't think that's the Chicago crowds intention at all (having been in every one of them for the last 10 or so years). It's a crowd of passionate but mostly smart wrestling fans that are chomping at the bit for something to sink their teeth into. They are a crowd that will cheer for something if presented properly and given the time and logic it deserves. There's a reason a few of the most notable face turns in history happened in front of the Chicago crowd. Mostly, they were done right and the crowd responded as such. Sure, they boo some guys that are "faces" and cheer others that are "heels" but by and large if you're positioned as someone evil, they'll boo you. Take the post-Punk Raw, they booed Paul Heyman, Triple H and Stephanie. Loved Daniel Bryan. The CM Punk chants were what they were, that was bound to happen but WWE smartly leveraged it into something tangible to progress their storylines. When stories are done well and done right (Punk/Cena MITB), they respond as such. When they are being presented a shit product, they boo, they chant, etc.

This is the thing I'll always remember about the turn. He didn't change or evolve in anyway outside of putting dollar signs on his cloth and tights. As you said, it would've been much more effective if he shaved his head or grew long hair, dyed it, changed his moveset or anything. He never really did, he immediately took a number in an increasingly bloated Million Dollar Corporation.