dawho5
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One thing I liked a lot about this is how the Shield deviated from their normal offense to work over RVD's injured shoulder early. And Rollins later grabbed the same arm as RVD had it draped over the ropes and yanked it down as a cheapshot. For a match as seemingly random and inconsequential as this it was really good. Ziggler was good as the fired up babyface, and I'm not a big Ziggler fan at all. He just epitomizes that emotionless, choreographed athletic WWE workrate style for me. It's 90% flash with 10% substance most of the time. Here he was better even if he's not great. Kofi still sucks. Have I mentioned I really hate Kofi? -
I honestly wish I could watch the WWE matches without any commentary. It's probably the weakest aspect of their presentation. JBL is atrocious and Cole is and always has been completely useless. Post Summerslam JBL has been ridiculous as far as going from heel commentator back to Cole's buddy loving the matches back to heel commentator endlessly. It's very similar to the Triple H still needing to get cheers by messing with Heyman to the crowd's delight even though he is THE heel in the main program. It's so fucked. As far as the Bryan selling/offense dichotomy goes, I will always prefer Bryan's work in ROH or Japan to his WWE work on a style basis. But watching part of his WWE run it's really noticeable that he's one of the few guys who can make their matches really stand out despite how vanilla they all become after seeing about five. I think that's a huge part of why he got over as fast as he did. As far as this match goes, I thought it was Reigns best performance so far. He did just the right amount of selling and putting Bryan's offense over while still looking like a badass. The back and forth is an unfortunate side effect of having a match in the WWE. Closing stretch is going to be unnecessarily back and forth. I do like how in Bryan matches they will a lot of the time have the opponent duck the head kick after the chest kicks only for Bryan to work back into the head kick from something else. It's always been a bit of psychology that I love.
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In addition Marty, each elimination that could played into the current storyline. Kofi and RVD had been hurt earlier that night and made easy targets. The Usos eliminate the heavy out of their two opponents at Battleground for the tag titles with a tag team move. Ambrose had just come off of a Ziggler match at Night of Champions and beaten Ambrose in a non-title match before this. The Usos again getting the better of Reigns with a double superkick and Ziggler taking out Ambrose when he tried to come back again hit the same points. It's really good booking, especially for how all over the place it was around the time.
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For me it would be such a ridiculous mixed bag. I loved the WCW cruiserweights, even the bastardized lucha libre. Goes without saying I was a workrate guy at that point. And you had midcard guys like Regal, Finlay, Benoit doing great stuff, DDP coming up through the ranks. The Sting storyline was booked really well for most of 97. Of course then the shit hit the fan. And I'd have to deal with Schiavone on commentary. Late 1990s Battlarts will always be something I love to death. Such a great mix of everything shoot and pro wrestling that somehow worked. MPro circa 1996 was something else with the 10 man tags done about as well as you'll ever see them done. Speaking of 96, anything involving Kawada in the ring with Akiyama or Misawa was dynamite. But my choice is fairly obvious. All Japan from 93 to mid 95. Things hadn't gotten way overblown yet and Hansen was still ripping it up with Kobashi and Kawada. So much great stuff from that two and a half year period that it's hard to ignore. All Japan from 10/19/90 through mid 92 would come in second. I know it's not universally loved, but I think it's incredible stuff.
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So does that mean we are overrating matches like the Valentine matches in 80s WWF? I personally feel that Misawa vs. Hansen is wrestled in a very intelligent way most of the time, it's just that the difference from the usual style can be seen as a negative. I completely agree with Loss about both Cesaro vs. Zayn matches. Do I prefer that style to modern WWE style? Absolutely. But it seems like they were going for a "that's a MOTY!" consciously because it would be viewed against the rest of the WWE/NXT stuff. Honestly I thought the Paige/Emma match from Arrival was a lot better because it felt far more organic and less self-conscious. I won't lie and say that I've never liked something more because it is different from the normal style (early Shield matches come to mind), but I like to think that there are merits to the differences there that override it just being different. All of that being said, I know that all promotions have their own unique styles, but it seems like there ought to be a way for a promotion to be more all-encompassing as far as how the matches are worked. WCW had a strange dichotomy going between the cruiserweights and main event style that they eventually tried to smash together. It didn't work, but could that be the fault of bad booking and/or execution far more than it being a bad idea? I suppose the trick would be to get everything over that needed to be over, as well as make sure you kept certain workers very far from guys thy would work really badly against.
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I think to appreciate the finish of the match you have to really be in tune with 1991-1992 All Japan. The enzuilariat was an instant KO when Kawada started using it in early 91. Over time it lost the deadliness to the point where people kicked out of it, but it was still a big move. And it was always used as a surprise tactic to turn the tides late. So when Hansen hits it while Kawada is trying to put him away, it's exactly how the move has been used forever. And in Hansen's hands it's a killer again. So he pulls Kawada up and Kawada is still fighting despite being out on his feet, leading to the lariat for the finish. The enzuilariat was the final nail in the coffin. There's no way Kawada was coming back.
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I would add to Parv's points (intentional?) the way he keeps mixing up the facets of the big rivalries. Jumbo/Taue/Fuchi vs. Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi was the big match, but over time there were different iterations of the 6-mans and the tags that gave somebody like a Kobashi or Kikuchi a chance to work above their station. Part of how we look at wrestling in the U.S. is wins and losses. Too many losses and the guy is a jobber. But in Japan, a lot of the way they build their guys up is how they perform in losses against higher ranked opposition. So Kikuchi progressively getting better showings against Jumbo and Taue over the course of a year is huge. And somebody like Kobashi who can do significant damage to Jumbo or Taue but is still far from pinning them can prove to be a very valuable part of a tag match. The same goes for Taue or Fuchi with Misawa. They can turn the tide for their team by damaging the right opponent at the right time and handing Misawa or Jumbo a weakened rival that is easier to put away. Or at the very least far more likely to tag out and provide easier pickings. Kawada has actually come a long way towards being a star in his own right. It may be that is the reason why Taue had such a big role in the 6/5 tag. I truly love how all of these sub-rivalries make big contributions within the greater feud without ever really threatening to eclipse it.
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In response to the conservative booking talk, I have to agree with jdw. It's that kind of booking that makes those moments, when done right, HUGE. The first time Kikuchi pinned Fuchi I was marking out. Hell, the first time he knocked Taue down without help I was marking out. When Kobashi made a massive run on Jumbo in a tag and came up just short because Jumbo pulled the knees up on a moonsault, I was devastated. That's the kind of stuff that can only happen within that conservative booking. When you're used to one result from a certain situation different things stand out more.
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My question is whether most of the NXT talent, ready or not, fits on the regular roster. How many are going to reach even the current position of Daniel Bryan? That was something that was forced on Vince and I wonder if maybe all that talent being left in NXT isn't because Bryan had such a successful run and had to be put in his place. Most of the NXT roster aren't going to fly with the WWE's definition of how a big time star looks and wrestles. So at best it seems like they'd be doomed to be in the mess of misfit midcard guys who get 7 or 8 minutes to put on a match and some cartoonish character. Occasionally they'd wrestle a big guy like a Ryback or Sheamus or Barrett and look good before getting put down. And they'd be in endless feuds with the rest of the midcard that go nowhere. The WWE did that with a guy who is way more in their mold like Big E, so why would they elevate somebody like Neville at less than 200 lbs. any higher? You'd see Zayn putting over the next big man heel over and over again while being touted as a "tough kid with heart". And I agree that all these wrestlers want to be on the main roster and make more money. Money they rightly deserve for working hard and being good at what they do. It's just frustrating as a fan to see what is happening because Vince doesn't have competition. If they did turn it into a touring brand, would they up the money these guys got and give them the respect they deserve for what they do? I highly doubt the second would ever be true given the WWE's history. But maybe somebody in the WWE will see that by giving these guys and the different style it's due they can put this over as their own competition. Where they would be creating their own indy, but with financial backing and national exposure that could actually draw money. I know these guys were all looking to be WWE Superstars coming in, but is it possible they could be convinced to be the alternative with good enough paydays? Could the touring group make money with all these name guys getting paid their worth given the right backing and promotion by the WWE? If the WWE thinks the answer to those questions are yes, there is the possibility that they could try to drive the indies out of business. And Daniel Bryan would be the perfect guy to headline that kind of thing.
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I've been working my way through the major and suggested minor All Japan matches from 90 on and it's been really fascinating stuff. Watching Misawa & co. develop as workers over the last two and a half years (I'm in June of 92) has been really eye opening. One thing I'm noticing is that starting from 10/19/90 Misawa and his young cohorts seem to have a new confidence in themselves and their roles and everything builds up from there. And by mid 92 that confidence is manifesting itself in them approaching matches in different ways using the same things they have been using with a few additions here and there. I think that it's a lost time period for All Japan outside of a few matches everyone knows about. To me that's a real shame because despite these guys becoming great, great workers who developed a very advanced heavyweight style, they were actually working top notch matches in a much more standard style for a few years until they worked up to that point. And I'm a huge fan of their later work, but this period lends a lot of perspective as far as how great they were. I actually like some elements of the 92 style better than later versions. Rollups and submissions can end matches, which adds another dimension to Misawa putting on a stepover facelock 25 minutes into a match. There are certainly missteps and matches where a worker or several workers just aren't making things work for stretches, but that's part of how they got there. The historian in me is really loving how this is playing out so far. And the wrestling fan in me is loving how from 10/19/90 forward there has been a constant progression in the overall story of the youth movement against Jumbo's squad (who have two of the young guys featured). And each matchup has it's own history that can be played off of in tags or singles matches. Maybe it's because I came into wrestling late and started watching WCW when it was clusterfucked at the top by Nash and Hogan with the competition being Attitude era WWE, but the consistent story being told over that time is really impressive. Baba seems like a booking genius in how he progresses his young guys without killing the heat on his big names. It doesn't hurt that he's got Jumbo, Fuchi and Hansen around to guide things along when it's needed. Did I miss out on this kind of thing in the days of the territories? Or is this a pretty rare deal in wrestling due to Baba being the one guy making the calls and having a clear vision of how things should work? Because I find that even though this feud has gone on a while, it's been mixed up enough as far as how the matches are worked that it still works. Very likely because there is that thread of umbrella storytelling running through most of the matches. Edit: title ought to be "Coherent" but I'm not that bright. Any way that can be modified?
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Jumbo/Taue/Ogawa vs. Gordy/Williams/Slinger 5/25/92 Same show as the famous Kobashi/Kikuchi tag and the same amazing crowd. This one goes in the Williams/Gordy as great workers file for me. Oh, and both Slinger and Ogawa rock here.
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This match was really different from most Shield matches. They did the run-through of different matchups with nobody getting any advantage right off the bat, then went to the double heat. The Bryan hot tag towards the end was electric. Kane taking out Ambrose and Reigns outside was probably the best work he's ever done. For storyline reasons as much as performance reasons. And the triple team finish on Rollins was poetic justice. I loved how they had built the Shield up so much as a unit that the win for Orton/Kane/Bryan seemed huge. And it put Bryan over quite a bit too, which was nice.
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I would agree with Marty on the Orton/Bryan team gelling. The rest of the match was good, fun workrate wrestling with a little character work by Rollins thrown in.
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I associate him with great uppercuts, good selling and a more varied offense than you think. He's not top 100 of all time, but he's not as bad as a lot of people seem to think.
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The one major thing thing I took away from this is that every big nearfall at the end was a move that that person had finished off that victim with before. Every single one. Add that to the multitude of other awesome stuff. Also, in case anyone was unaware they did a run-through of this match with Ogawa in Taue's spot on 4/19/92 to finish the tour before. It's not as good, but well worth the time.
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This was a great match. Bryan is so great as the house of fire near the end. I am seeing now why Marty compared him to KENTA. And in the role of the big hot tag, that shit works like gangbusters. Ambrose bumping for the Bryan clothesline/flying elbow thing was great. Bryan trying to break his own neck for the finish was just not right. Awesome, but not right. The heat on Orton was really well worked leading up to the Bryan hot tag. One thing that really stands out about the Shield is how good they are at fast offense, slow methodical offense, selling their come-uppance and bumping big for the faces. They really are the closest thing to great old school heels that has been in the WWE for a while.
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I liked the character work in this just as much as any of the actual work, which was top notch. Bryan's overzealous attitude distracting Kane at just the right time gives the Shield the win. I really like the way Bryan's character believes so strongly that he's the weak link that it comes true. That's great stuff there.
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When I get there. Going through the Shield chronologically and NXT as a sort of warm-up and cool-down for my All Japan watchings. Worked in a few Mark Henry 2011 PPV matches with plans to follow Cesaro and the historic Bryan 2013 run after I finish up with the Shield and Henry. Sheamus is looking like a contender for more viewing as well. I'm trying to watch matches as they come up of people I have read about but not seen much of.
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You could make the argument that WCCW was actually getting close to being able to doing what Vince did before all their troubles with the von Erichs. But the problem with that would be that not all of the von Erichs were going to be marketable national stars. And I can't see Fritz making the call to job his boys out to whoever needed to be put over to make things work. If you look at 1992 WCW the idea of Watts going national opposite Vince is actually interesting. No top rope rule is something that makes you wonder how the whole talent bidding war would have gone with no cruiserweights. They would have essentially been bidding on the same big hosses to work different styles of wrestling programs. But nobody besides Vince was going to resort to all the dirty tricks on the rest of the promoters. They knew one another and had worked together too long. And they seemed more loyal to each other than the wrestlers. Which has also been mentioned. So maybe that's Vince's true genius. Knowing the system well enough to break it. He knew that if he could give the big name wrestlers guaranteed yearly contracts it was a win-win. And he knew that having all the big names locked up meant that nobody else was going to make any money. Or at least not enough to compete. Here's a different what-if scenario. What happens if Turner never decides to get involved in wrestling? How much sooner does Vince have the monopoly on wrestling when Turner isn't throwing money at big names and Vince can get everybody under one roof faster? Or do a few territories still have enough firepower to carry on when Vince reaches the amount of big names he can afford with the business he's doing? How long does it take for the smaller guys to get a platform for their wrestling style in the States? There's all kinds of variables that could have changed the course of wrestling in America completely. I think that Vince's consolidation was bound to happen eventually. And to go even further I think that over time whoever had become the dominant force would get complacent and be out of touch. It's bound to happen when you get to that position.
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The NXT style seems like a sort of indy hybrid with WWE tropes. All of the things Loss hit on are a part of NXT style, but to a much lesser degree. I will say that I abhor most of those things despite really liking some of the workers in both NXT and WWE. A little off-topic, but are all the hyped WWE matches in the 2010s and 2000s forums?
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Kofi works really, really fucking light. Kane as the voice of reason and Bryan as the spiteful avenger is a nice role reversal. Kane annoys me every time I see him wrestle. He works almost as light as Kofi. The Shield taunting Bryan as the weak link is so awesome. I thought Ambrose was the most impressive of the Shield members here. One thing I hate about the whole "the Shield thrives in chaos" thing is that they thrive in order too. When they isolate somebody it's usually not chaotic at all. It's worked in a way that's methodical regardless of their pace. Kane taking the fall is a step up for the Shield, they finally get the fall on the big name in the matchup.
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I liked Kane getting eliminated first both for character reasons and for how much he brought these matches down. Bryan holding out as long as he did was a lot of fun. The Shield completely disregarding the rules and triple teaming Cena anyway was pretty sweet. Really brings home that group mentality in a meaningful way. They in no way cared about the DQ. All they were worried about was destroying the opposition as a group regardless of the rules.
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I didn't hate anyone in this match except for Kane. His offense is garbage. His selling isn't there. Bryan was a lot of fun, but I always want to strangle King or JBL whenever they talk about him. Taker actually played his role really well here. I'm no big Undertaker fan, but he was good in this. It's one of the lesser Shield matches through the end of May but is still pretty good.
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[2013-02-18-WWE-Raw] The Shield vs Chris Jericho & Sheamus & Ryback
dawho5 replied to Loss's topic in February 2013
This was really good, but it seemed like the lite-version of the Cena match for free TV to help get the Shield over. Smart booking by the WWE. -
This was the match that got me hooked on the Shield. The TLC match was really good, but you never really know how well it's going to translate outside of the craziness of the gimmick. I dig how the Shield, when they are in their fast tag offense, don't do a lot of running around that involves moving the victim or put themselves in between the victim and their corner. They are constantly positioning themselves in between their opponent and his corner. There's not a bunch of fancy offense. There's enough, but it's mostly hard-hitting and laser focused. That does make their use of rope-running and corner stuff almost an obvious signal that we're going to get a hot tag soon though. Ryback as the big hot tag was actually really good. He looks like a complete musclehead and classic WWE big man nonsense. But I suppose that he still could be in a long singles match. I liked Sheamus ripping off the protective vest on Ambrose a lot. As well as the kick out of nowhere. Cena was good as the face-in-peril and the avenger towards the end. One thing I really like about the way the Shield was booked is they always appear weaker than their big name opponents one on one, but manage to get somebody else down long enough to double or triple team whoever it may be into a bad spot.