BigBadMick

Again, JR first used that, around survivors 2000, in connection with the elaborate scheme that had recently been unveiled to remove Austin in Nov 1999. Someone must have liked it - it stuck.

As chance would have it, I'm away from home today. Have some all Japan disks and a few cans. Will see how I get on.

could you list the HHH matches?

Sorry, I meant to write earlier please feel free to add to/delete from this list.

In his defense, here's a rundown of what I feel is his good-or-better output, post 2001 - 2002 - v Angle early in the year, v Jericho in HiaC 2003 - nothing 2004 - WM, Backlash, v Benoit at Vengeance, a great triple threat with Edge and Benoit in Nov/Dec 2005 - Elimination Chamber, HiaC with Batista, Flair in the cage match, a couple of good Raw matches with Benoit 2006 - WM (Bit torn here - not really a match that helped Cena, but he wrestled well), V Edge v Cena (Backlash). Not a fan of the DX stuff, but as the year closed they had a decent 6 man with Cena v Orton Edge Umaga 2007 - DX v Edge Orton was going very well until his knee fell apart, loved his streetfight with Umaga in October or November, and the LMS v Orton around the same time. 2008 - Really contributed to a very good Elimation chamber in Feb, good match v Edge in July, generally liked his move to Smackdown (Nice match v taker there) Really strong triple threat with Edge and Jeff Hardy in Dec 2009 - Good performance in Elimination chamber, and the 6 man tag at Backlash. Another DX reunion gave us one good match v Rhodes and DiBiase jr at Summerslam, and the ladder match v Jerishow in Dec. 2010 - liked the WM and Backlash matches with Sheamus 2011 - big fan of v Undertaker. Not so much the Punk and Nash matches 2012 - big fan of v Undertaker. Enjoyed the SummerSlam Lesnar match, but it looks very tame now. 2013 - Didnt like the Lesnar matches 2014 - Really enjoyed the WM match, and the first 6 man with Shield 2015 - Nope

Cool. I'll look forward to it. I think this DiBiase-Windham comparison is really interesting.

Is that second paragraph directed to me?

I think the claim that Barry Windham's early 90s run is better than Ted's 80s Mid-South run is really stretching it. And would go against not only conventional wisdom but also my very recent experiences of watching both runs. I'm not sure if anything else needs to be said, but I've been watching them both side-by-side -- 80s Mid-South as part of my ongoing thread, early 90s Windham for WTBBP. Do you really think Windham has a great run in 91, 92 or 93? When? How? I think I missed this when I first read the post. Are you really putting NWA champ 93 Windham over peak Ted? Seems nuts. Ted has a lot of very good to great matches in the 80s. See the aforementioned thread for reviews of lots of them. As I've said on WTBBP many times, Windham had a habit of not bringing his A-game to PPV matches and seemingly a lot of his best performances are buried on TV shows. I honestly can't think of what you could be referring to in the "early 90s run" though. He has that match with Arn that I LOVE from 92. But I can't really think off the top of my head of too many stand outs. JvK, I know you're a massive fan of WCW in 1992 - where would you put Windham in a list of WCW's best workers that year? Below Rude, Steamboat, Arn, Dustin and Vader for sure. It would be a close run thing between him and the next set down, which would include Austin and Sting (in his career year). The claim from Dylan is a real head-scratcher for me. Windham feels kinda lost and floating around in 1990. He has a decent match with Luger that year. Some good stuff with Pillman on TV in 91. String of very good tags vs. Dangerous Alliance in 92, again on TV. The awesome Arn match. And I could probably leave the stuff vs. Gordy and Williams from later in the year. Into 93 and the stuff with Flair is disapponting. I recall the Regal and Scorpion matches being good. But really I don't think it all adds up to being better than Ted's signature run in Mid-South. And I'd probably take Ted's 88 over Windham's 1990 or 1991. I suspect that Dylan is probably making those Dustin tags vs. DA from the 92 TV do a lot of work in his argument. Ok, that's joint 6th in a really strong year for that promotion then. How about doing the same for DiBiase in Mid-South (you pick a year)? And maybe a statement about how the quality of Mid-South's roster measures up to WCW 92.

I think it could be the most emotional segment or one of the most memorable, but it wasn't functional. It wasn't going to draw any money. I don't think it was artistically appealing. It was real. It's sort of like, if you had for the final episode of MASH, the last five minutes were all of the actors breaking character and talking about their experiences and how much this mattered as the crowd went nuts for them. It's more of an Apples and Oranges thing in my mind. I guess on some level, it makes the WWE and Wrestling look more important, but those are really vague things. Dave's never been the best at separating things, though. He doesn't separate things, and coming out with a statement like that so soon afterwards seems rash to me.

I think the claim that Barry Windham's early 90s run is better than Ted's 80s Mid-South run is really stretching it. And would go against not only conventional wisdom but also my very recent experiences of watching both runs. I'm not sure if anything else needs to be said, but I've been watching them both side-by-side -- 80s Mid-South as part of my ongoing thread, early 90s Windham for WTBBP. Do you really think Windham has a great run in 91, 92 or 93? When? How? I think I missed this when I first read the post. Are you really putting NWA champ 93 Windham over peak Ted? Seems nuts. Ted has a lot of very good to great matches in the 80s. See the aforementioned thread for reviews of lots of them. As I've said on WTBBP many times, Windham had a habit of not bringing his A-game to PPV matches and seemingly a lot of his best performances are buried on TV shows. I honestly can't think of what you could be referring to in the "early 90s run" though. He has that match with Arn that I LOVE from 92. But I can't really think off the top of my head of too many stand outs. JvK, I know you're a massive fan of WCW in 1992 - where would you put Windham in a list of WCW's best workers that year?

Dave called Raw's final segment 'the best segment in the history of television wrrestling'. He's like a child with a new toy. Absolutely no sense of perspective....

Like the audio clips from the Clash - good addition to the show.

All good stuff, but can I clarify that I was wondering what folks think about having, say, 3 or 4 bottles of beers and whilst watching. Does your critical eye slide that easily? More stories about watching completely shitfaced also gratefully accepted.

I assume you mean Reigns turns?

This is something I've thought about because of changes in my own habits. A decade ago, I drank whilst watching quite a bit. I have really good memories of RoH, TNA and WWE for the second half of the 2000s, and wonder how accurate those memories are. I remember being fairly smashed by the end of a few WWE live events in Belfast too. Nowadays, I rarely get the tv to myself on a weekend night, so most of my wrestling watching is during the week, or during the day at weekends. And if the missus heard a beer crack open during those hours that's the last you'd hear from me . Anyway, curious about a few things - How much booze before you'd question your evaluation of a match? Do you think alcohol and wrestling complement each other? Just general feelings on this?

Nothing against the match, goc, but neither participant seems that important in the wwe version of history, and there's loads of better matches could have taken its place.

I'm curious about some of the decision making here... DISC 1 The Real Story NWA World Heavyweight Championship Match ‘Nature Boy’ Ric Flair vs. Sting Clash of the Champions – 27th March, 1988 NWA World Tag Team Championship Match Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs. Lex Luger & Barry Windham Clash of the Champions – 27th March, 1988 Why Wait a Whole Year? NWA World Tag Team Championship Match Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs. Sting & Dusty Rhodes Clash of the Champions II – 8th June, 1988 Russian Chain Match Ricky Morton vs. Ivan Koloff Clash of the Champions III – 7th September, 1988 “I Quit” Match for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship ‘Nature Boy’ Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk Clash of the Champions IX – 15th November, 1989 Mil Mascaras vs. Cactus Jack Manson Clash of the Champions X – 6th February, 1990 NWA World Tag Team Championship Match Midnight Express vs. Rock & Roll Express Clash of the Champions XI – 13th June, 1990 DISC 2 To Be The Man, You Gotta Beat The Man NWA United States Championship Match ‘Nature Boy’ Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger Clash of the Champions XII – 5th September, 1990 The Young Pistols & Z-Man vs. The Fabulous Freebirds Clash of the Champions XV – 12th June, 1991 15-Man Battle Royal Clash of the Champions XVI – 5th September, 1991 WCW United States Championship Match Sting vs. ‘Ravishing’ Rick Rude Clash of the Champions XVII – 19th November, 1991 Other Stars On The Rise 2 out of 3 Falls Match ‘Nature Boy’ Ric Flair & Arn Anderson vs. The Hollywood Blonds Clash of the Champions XXIII – 17th June, 1993 Brian Pillman vs. “Stunning” Steve Austin Clash of the Champions XXV – 10th November, 1993 WCW Television Title Match Lord Steven Regal vs. Dustin Rhodes Clash of the Champions XXVI – 27th January, 1994 Elimination Tag Team Match Sting & ‘Nature Boy’ Ric Flair vs. ‘Ravishing’ Rick Rude & Vader Clash of the Champions XXVI – 27th January, 1994 DISC 3 Here we are Again Championship Unification Match Sting vs. ‘Nature Boy’ Ric Flair Clash of the Champions XXVII – 23rd June, 1994 WCW United States Championship Match “Stunning” Steve Austin vs. Ricky ‘The Dragon’ Steamboat Clash of the Champions XXVIII – 24th August, 1994 Hulk Hogan & ‘Macho Man’ Randy Savage vs. ‘Nature Boy’ Ric Flair & The Giant Clash of the Champions XXXII – 23rd January, 1996 Medusa vs. Bull Nakano Clash of the Champions XXXIII – 15th August, 1996 Match for the BattleBowl Ring Diamond Dallas Page vs. Eddie Guerrero Clash of the Champions XXXIII – 15th August, 1996 I’m gonna watch this WCW World Tag Team Championship Triple Threat Match Harlem Heat vs. The Steiner Brothers vs. Sting & Lex Luger Clash of the Champions XXXIII – 15th August, 1996 WCW Cruiserweight Championship Match Ultimo Dragon vs. Dean Malenko Clash of the Champions XXXIV – 21st January, 1997 WCW Cruiserweight Championship Match Chris Jericho vs. Eddie Guerrero Clash of the Champions XXXV – 21st August, 1997 Diamond Dallas Page & Lex Luger vs. Scott Hall & ‘Macho Man’ Randy Savage Clash of the Champions XXXV – 21st August, 1997 35th and Final Clash BLU-RAY EXTRAS ‘Nature Boy’ Ric Flair and Barry Windham vs. Midnight Express Clash of the Champions IV – 7th December, 1988 Sting and Ricky ‘The Dragon’ Steamboat vs. ‘Ravishing’ Rick Rude and Steve Austin Clash of the Champions XVIII – 21st January, 1992 Thunder Cage Match Dustin Rhodes & Sting vs. Big Van Vader, Paul Orndorff and Barry Windham Clash of the Champions XXII – 13th January, 1993 Why is 1992 omitted (apart from on the Blu-Ray)? And Jesse's commentary is removed from the June 93 event - hasn't all that royalties stuff been sorted? Whilst I understand a lot of choices relate to wrestler's relevance to modern WWE fans, why are Morton/Koloff, the Freebirds tag from June 91 and the Battle Royal from Sept 91 included?

Sounds great Coffey but there's Raw and Smackdown every week.

I'd agree with 2001. The Astrodome was huge. Next year in SkyDome, then Sacco Field were big places as well. 2001 is probably the answer. The reason I suggest '04 is because Bix and Kris mentioned international fans flying in. Was that a big part of things as early as '01? Just asking - I can't remember.

Funny moment when Jericho interviewed rvd for his podcast. Rvd was talking about making adjustments coming into wwe. Jericho asked what guys complained about his style. Brief, awkward pause, then rvd said 'well....you!'

I don't know, Brainfollower. This is the man that got Bruno AND Warrior into the Hall of Fame. He seems to put business first.

I'm interested in that 'when did wrestlemania become wrestlemania?' discussion. To me, I'd argue the modern MASSIVE version of the event started two years earlier than 2006, at MSG in 2004. Looked like an international, diehards-only crowd there to fanatically tear Brock and Goldberg a new one.

What did Steph say on Raw?

Does anyone know what HHH's take is on all this? Pure speculation, but I get the impression Vince and Steph are control freaks and he's a lot less rigid about this sort of thing.

Yeah. Personally, I thought it was fine, just a bit of fun. WWE are real dicks about this sort of thing sometimes.