BigBadMick

I've listened to this and it's very interesting. I know Dave's thing is you can't evaluate work outside of its present day context, but do you think he regrets any of his snarky comments from the 80s? For example, is he still as down on Backlund?

...or, generally late-70s mid-Atlantic. From limited viewing of the Cornette garbage footage that seems to be a good starting point for 'standing up' (to coin a phrase) matches.

Parv, no mention of Flair and Steamboat yet?

That does sound annoying alright.

Is he that bad? I find Alvarez more annoying than him.The impression of Todd comes from people reading his Raw reviews. It is a pretty dated impression.Nah. I doubt I have even read more than one or two of them. Why would I care what anyone on that wesbsite not named Dave Meltzer thinks of Raw? It's because he comes across as a complete douche on the shows with Bryan. Like almost as unlistenable as Lance Storm. Storm's a problem too? I find him enjoyable enough. A bit dry, but he usually comes up with booking suggestions to improve Raw on the fly that make sense....

Is he that bad? I find Alvarez more annoying than him.

Why was the rooftop opening replaced so quickly? It's gone by Spring '96.

Thanks Loss, won't ask for anymore stories.....

What did Jericho do? Come on, I'm not buying the book.....

What do you mean by lacking self awareness? Too high an opinion of himself/his accomplishments? Just curious. I take it you don't follow him on Twitter or listen to his podcast. During his most recent WWE return he would talk about every PPV match he had stole the show or was match of the night. He is very showbizy/Hollywood too. I do listen to his podcasts..well, the interviews on them anyway. He can come across as arrogant and in his own wee world, but I sort of admire the way that makes him a better hustler, you know?

What do you mean by lacking self awareness? Too high an opinion of himself/his accomplishments? Just curious.

I think his work got a lot tighter after coming back in late '07. Plenty of vicious strikes in the Jericho feud.

Parv, I probably shouldn't have thrown out such an off the cuff statement without a bit of explanation, sorry about that. Listening to your gripes against Backlund, and Johnny's argument that he was following orders from the back, reminded me a great deal of much Cena debate since about 2008 or so. Many of the comments here have addressed all the problems I have with Cena. It's mainly the shrugging off all the previous selling to go into a very familiar finishing routine. And the refusal to sell any serious repercussions the following night.

Parv, if super no-sell Backlund is annoying you, you might want to steer clear of Cena......

Alan, any chance you could put together a quick narrative on RoH match quality from 2009-14? My basic understanding is solid until 2011, then bit of a dip in 2012 and resurrection this year. Is that generalisation anywhere close?

Agreed. Aces and eights were dead in the water about 8 months before they finished up in autumn 2013 if not for him. Liked his work throughout that year with Hardy, Sabin, Styles and Anderson.

This is a great post. You know that phrase you sometimes hear, "He's so overrated, he's underrated"? Cena is the opposite. He's so underrated by people who hate him, that he ends up getting too much praise from people who like him, and now he's overrated. I am by no means a Cena hater. He's a nice little WWE style wrestler with a nice resume of really good matches, and few really great ones. What I find odd about this thread & the general love for Cena around here, is that Cena is bad at things that many who praise him on this site value strongly (bad punches & strikes, awful looking low impact offense), and does things that routinely get ripped when it comes to other wrestlers (finisher spamming, endless finisher kickouts, video game closing stretches, etc). It seems Cena gets a pass for this stuff from some people. I like Cena. I usually like his matches, but he's also a guy who has a file folder full of absolute shit, the likes of which true all time greats do not. He's a guy who has great matches with high level workers and when he has great chemistry with somebody (CM Punk instantly comes to mind, as does Bryan), but he's also a guy who has trouble carrying bad opponents (the awful Bray Wyatt matches until the gimmick match with the shortcuts...I think LMS at Payback, which was great). He has mediocre matches against mediocre opponents (The Rock, Randy Orton, Big Show). Cena is basically the poster child for working to the level of your opponent. If this were any other site on the internet, i'd be defending him because he'd likely be unfairly ripped by just about everybody. Here he gets the respect he deserves as a worker, but I think we need to pump the brakes a bit and be fair about the flaws. He didn't make my Top 100 five years ago. He'd probably make it now, somewhere in the 80-100 range. The weird thing, is he'd probably be the only guy on my list with tons of matches I don't like very much. But the high end stuff can not be ignored, and with the amount of televised stuff he has (maybe more than anybody), he's bound to have some stinkers. Agree 100% Joe. I also find myself moderating my response to Cena based on how much love/hate he inspires on different sites.

Similar to TNA, I think Ring of Honor might be worthy of closer inspection. I've watched a lot from 2002-09 but fell off the RoH wagon thereafter. I'd love to hear some recommendations from the last 5 years or so.... As a starting point for discussion, here's a Top 100 matches, as of mid 2012, from ROHWorld Forums - 1. Blood Generation (CIMA, Naruki Doi & Masato Yoshino) vs. Do Fixer (Dragon Kid, Genki Horiguchi & Ryo Saito) (Supercard of Honor 3.31.2006) 4.88 (26 votes) 2. Bryan Danielson vs. KENTA (Glory by Honor V, Night 2 9.16.2006 – ROH World Title Match) 4.87 (34 votes) 3. Bryan Danielson vs. Nigel McGuinness (Unified 8.12.2006 – ROH World Title vs. ROH Pure Title Unification Match) 4.85 (35 votes) 4. KENTA vs. Low Ki (Final Battle 2005 12.17.2005 – GHC Jr. Heavyweight Title Match) 4.81 (31 votes) 5. Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (Joe vs. Punk II 10.16.2004 – ROH World Title Match) 4.79 (34 votes) 6. Bryan Danielson vs. Roderick Strong (Vendetta 11.5.2005 – ROH World Title Match) 4.75 (41 votes) 7. Nigel McGuinness vs. Bryan Danielson (Driven 6.23.2007) 4.75 (20 votes) 8. Samoa Joe vs. Bryan Danielson (Midnight Express Reunion 10.2.2004 – ROH World Title Match) 4.72 (17 votes) 9. Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (Final Battle 2010 12.18.2010 – Fight Without Honor/ROH Career vs. Mask Match) 4.71 (22 votes) 10. Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi (Joe vs. Kobashi 10.1.2005) 4.70 (46 votes) 11. Austin Aries & Roderick Strong vs. Jay and Mark Briscoe (Unified 8.12.2006 – ROH Tag Team Title Match) 4.70 (32 votes) 12. Austin Aries vs. CM Punk (Death Before Dishonor III 6.18.2005 – ROH World Title Match) 4.67 (14 votes) 13. Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (All Star Extravaganza II 12.4.2004 – ROH World Title Match) 4.62 (29 votes) 14. Jimmy Jacobs vs. BJ Whitmer (Supercard of Honor II 3.31.2007 – Cage Match) 4.62 (27 votes) 15. Tyler Black vs. Davey Richards (Death Before Dishonor VIII 6.19.2010 – ROH World Title Match) 4.61 (36 votes) 16. Low Ki vs. The American Dragon (Round Robin Challenge 3.30.2002) 4.61 (20 votes) 17. Nigel McGuinness vs. Austin Aries (Rising Above 12.29.2007 – ROH World Title Match) 4.59 (29 votes) 18. Bryan Danielson vs. Roderick Strong (This Means War 10.29.2005 – ROH World Title Match) 4.59 (11 votes) 19. The American Wolves vs. Bryan Danielson & Tyler Black (Tag Title Classic 4.18.2009 – ROH Tag Team Title Match) 4.58 (27 votes) 20. Samoa Joe vs. Homicide vs. Bryan Danielson vs. Colt Cabana vs. Austin Aries vs. Mark Briscoe (Survival of the Fittest 2004 6.24.2004 – Survival of the Fittest Match) 4.57 (19 votes) 21. Jay and Mark Briscoe vs. Kevin Steen & El Generico (Man Up 9.15.2007 – Ladder War for the ROH Tag Team Titles) 4.56 (24 votes) 22. Generation Next (Austin Aries, Roderick Strong, Matt Sydal & Jack Evans) vs. The Embassy (Jimmy Rave, Alex Shelley, Abyss & Prince Nana) (Steel Cage Warfare 12.3.2005 – Steel Cage Warfare Elimination Match) 4.56 (15 votes) 23. Low Ki vs. AJ Styles vs. Paul London (One Year Anniversary Show 2.8.2003 – Triple Threat Match for the #1 Contender’s Trophy) 4.54 (18 votes) 24. Bryan Danielson vs. KENTA (Driven 6.23.2007) 4.53 (19 votes) 25. Bryan Danielson vs. Davey Richards (The Final Countdown Tour: Boston 9.25.2009) 4.52 (28 votes) 26. AJ Styles vs. Paul London (Night of the Grudges 6.14.2003 - #1 Contender’s Trophy Match) 4.52 (23 votes) 27. Jay and Mark Briscoe vs. CM Punk & Colt Cabana (ROH Reborn: Stage 2 4.24.2004 – ROH Tag Team Title Match) 4.52 (12 votes) 28. Samoa Joe vs. Austin Aries (Final Battle 2004 12.26.2004 – ROH World Title Match) 4.51 (27 votes) 29. Jay and Mark Briscoe vs. The Motor City Machine Guns (Good Times, Great Memories 4.28.2007 – ROH Tag Team Title Match) 4.51 (14 votes) 30. Takeshi Morishima vs. Bryan Danielson (Manhattan Mayhem II 8.25.2007 – ROH World Title Match) 4.50 (30 votes) 31. Bryan Danielson vs. Samoa Joe (Fight of the Century 8.5.2006 – ROH World Title Match) 4.50 (12 votes) 32. Kenta Kobashi & Homicide vs. Samoa Joe & Low Ki (Unforgettable 10.2.2005) 4.50 (10 votes) 33. Davey Richards vs. Christopher Daniels (Richards vs. Daniels 10.16.2010) 4.48 (32 votes) 34. Steve Corino vs. Homicide (Bitter Friends, Stiffer Enemies 8.16.2003) 4.48 (10 votes) 35. Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards (Best in the World 2011 6.26.2011 – ROH World Title Match) 4.47 (25 votes) 36. Bryan Danielson vs. Roderick Strong (Supercard of Honor 3.31.2006 – ROH World Title Match) 4.47 (11 votes) 37. Low Ki vs. Christopher Daniels vs. The American Dragon (The Era of Honor Begins 2.23.2002) 4.46 (19 votes) 38. Bryan Danielson vs. Takeshi Morishima (Final Battle 2008 12.27.2008 – Fight Without Honor) 4.46 (15 votes) 39. Eddie Edwards vs. Chris Hero (Revolution: Canada 5.7.2011 – ROH World Title Match) 4.46 (14 votes) 40. Roderick Strong vs. Davey Richards (Final Battle 2010 12.18.2010 – ROH World Title Match) 4.44 (21 votes) 41. Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (World Title Classic 6.12.2004 – ROH World Title Match) 4.43 (16 votes) 42. The Kings of Wrestling vs. The American Wolves (Tag Title Classic 2 12.17.2010 – ROH Tag Team Title Match) 4.43 (12 votes) 43. Austin Aries & Roderick Strong vs. KENTA & Davey Richards (Honor Reclaims Boston 11.3.2006) 4.43 (11 votes) 44. Team ROH (Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, BJ Whitmer, Adam Pearce & Ace Steel) vs. Team CZW (Chris Hero, Claudio Castagnoli, Necro Butcher, Nate Webb & Eddie Kingston) (Death Before Dishonor IV 7.15.2006 – Cage of Death Match) 4.42 (31 votes) 45. Jay and Mark Briscoe vs. Kevin Steen & El Generico (Death Before Dishonor V, Night 1 8.10.2007 – Street Fight) 4.42 (30 votes) 46. KENTA vs. Davey Richards (Supercard of Honor IV 4.3.2009 – GHC Jr. Heavyweight Title Match 4.42 (23 votes) 47. Nigel McGuinness vs. Bryan Danielson (Rising Above 11.22.2008 – ROH World Title Match) 4.41 (27 votes) 48. Bryan Danielson vs. Homicide (Final Battle 2006 12.23.2006 – ROH World Title Match) 4.40 (15 votes) 49. Paul London vs. Bryan Danielson (The Epic Encounter 4.12.2003 – 2 out of 3 Falls Match) 4.40 (15 votes) 50. Jay and Mark Briscoe vs. The Kings of Wrestling (The Big Bang 4.3.2010 – ROH Tag Team Title Match) 4.39 (32 votes) 51. Nigel McGuinness vs. Bryan Danielson (6th Anniversary Show 2.23.2008 – ROH World Title Match) 4.39 (30 votes) 52. Bryan Danielson vs. Austin Aries (Testing the Limit 8.7.2004 – 2 out of 3 Falls Match) 4.38 (22 votes) 53. Generation Next (Alex Shelley, Austin Aries, Roderick Strong & Jack Evans) vs. Jay and Mark Briscoe, John Walters & Jimmy Rave (Generation Next 5.22.2004) 4.37 (18 votes) 54. Jay Briscoe vs. Mark Briscoe (Fifth Year Festival: Finale 3.4.2007) 4.37 (10 votes) 55. The American Wolves vs. Adam Cole & Kyle O’Reilly (No Escape 7.9.2011) 4.36 (15 votes) 56. Nigel McGuinness vs. KENTA (7th Anniversary Show 3.21.2009 – ROH World Title Match) 4.34 (29 votes) 57. The Kings of Wrestling vs. The Motor City Machine Guns (Supercard of Honor V 5.8.2010 – ROH Tag Team Title Match) 4.34 (29 votes) 58. Tyler Black vs. Davey Richards (Tag Wars 2010 8.28.2010) 4.32 (14 votes) 59. Samoa Joe vs. Homicide (Do or Die 5.31.2003 – ROH World Title Match) 4.32 (10 votes) 60. Davey Richards vs. Kenny Omega (Epic Encounter III 3.20.2010) 4.31 (24 votes) 61. Nigel McGuinness vs. Bryan Danielson vs. Claudio Castagnoli vs. Tyler Black (Death Before Dishonor VI 8.2.2008 – Elimination Match for the ROH World Title) 4.31 (15 votes) 62. Naomichi Marufuji vs. Nigel McGuinness (Glory by Honor V, Night 2 9.16.2006 – GHC Heavyweight Title Match) 4.30 (17 votes) 63. Low Ki vs. Christopher Daniels vs. Spanky vs. Doug Williams (Crowning a Champion 7.27.2002 – 60 Minute Iron Man Match for the ROH Championship) 4.30 (10 votes) 64. The Kings of Wrestling vs. Jay and Mark Briscoe (Death Before Dishonor VIII 6.19.2010 – No DQ Match for the ROH Tag Team Titles) 4.29 (36 votes) 65. Kevin Steen & Steve Corino vs. El Generico & Colt Cabana (Bitter Friends, Stiffer Enemies 2 4.24.2010 – Come-As-You-Are Street Fight) 4.29 (29 votes) 66. Nigel McGuinness vs. Austin Aries (Supercard of Honor III 3.29.2008 – ROH World Title Match) 4.29 (21 votes) 67. Homicide vs. Steve Corino (War of the Wire 11.29.2003 – No-Ropes Barbed Wire Match) 4.29 (11 votes) 68. Eddie Edwards vs. Roderick Strong (Death Before Dishonor IX 9.17.2011 – Ringmaster’s Challenge Match) 4.28 (13 votes) 69. Nigel McGuinness vs. Kevin Steen (Northern Navigation 7.25.2008 – ROH World Title Match) 4.27 (26 votes) 70. Paul London vs. Michael Shane (Unscripted 9.21.2002 – Street Fight) 4.27 (24 votes) 71. Roderick Strong vs. Eddie Edwards (Manhattan Mayhem IV 3.19.2011 – ROH World Title Match) 4.27 (21 votes) 72. Team ROH (Samoa Joe, BJ Whitmer & Adam Pearce) vs. Team CZW (Chris Hero, Necro Butcher & Super Dragon) (The 100th Show 4.22.2006) 4.27 (12 votes) 73. Kota Ibushi & KENTA vs. Naomichi Marufuji & Katsuhiko Nakajima (The Tokyo Summit 9.14.2008) 4.26 (19 votes) 74. Tyler Black vs. Kevin Steen (Salvation 7.24.2010 – ROH World Title Match) 4.26 (14 votes) 75. Samoa Joe vs. Jay Briscoe (At Our Best 3.13.2004 – Cage Match for the ROH World Title) 4.22 (23 votes) 76. Bryan Danielson & Samoa Joe vs. KENTA & Naomichi Marufuji (Best in the World 3.25.2006) 4.22 (12 votes) 77. CM Punk vs. Roderick Strong (Escape from New York 7.9.2005 – ROH World Title Match) 4.20 (15 votes) 78. AJ Styles vs. Bryan Danielson (Main Event Spectacles 11.1.2003 - #1 Contender’s Trophy Match) 4.18 (27 votes) 79. The American Dragon vs. AJ Styles (All-Star Extravaganza 11.9.2002 - #1 Contender’s Trophy Match) 4.18 (12 votes) 80. Samoa Joe vs. Takeshi Morishima (Fifth Year Festival: NYC 2.16.2007) 4.16 (12 votes) 81. CM Punk & Ace Steel vs. Dan Maff & BJ Whitmer (Death Before Dishonor II, Part 2 7.24.2004 – Chicago Street Fight) 4.15 (13 votes) 82. Jay and Mark Briscoe vs. Austin Aries & Kota Ibushi (Tag Wars 2008 4.18.2008) 4.14 (14 votes) 83. Low Ki vs. Samoa Joe (Glory by Honor 10.5.2002 – Fight Without Honor) 4.10 (23 votes) 84. The American Wolves vs. Kevin Steen & El Generico (Glory by Honor VIII 9.26.2009 – Ladder War II for the ROH Tag Team Titles) 4.10 (19 votes) 85. Austin Aries vs. Kenny Omega (The Omega Effect 11.14.2009 – ROH World Title Match) 4.10 (14 votes) 86. The Motor City Machine Guns vs. Jimmy Jacobs & Tyler Black (Tag Wars 2008 4.18.2008) 4.08 (21 votes) 87. Roderick Strong vs. El Generico (Pick Your Poison 4.23.2010) 4.08 (21 votes) 88. Nigel McGuinness vs. Jerry Lynn (Supercard of Honor IV 4.3.2009 – ROH World Title Match) 4.06 (23 votes) 89. Austin Aries vs. Davey Richards (Aries vs. Richards 11.13.2009 – ROH World Title Match) 4.05 (28 votes) 90. Christopher Daniels vs. Eddie Edwards (9th Anniversary Show 2.26.2011 – 2 out of 3 Falls Match for the ROH Television Title) 4.03 (16 votes) 91. Christopher Daniels vs. AJ Styles (Road to the Title 6.22.2002) 4.02 (10 votes) 92. Davey Richards vs. El Generico (8th Anniversary Show 2.13.2010) 4.00 (24 votes) 93. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. KENTA (Glory by Honor VI, Night 2 11.3.2007 – GHC Heavyweight Title Match) 4.00 (21 votes) 94. Kevin Steen & El Generico vs. The American Wolves (7th Anniversary Show 3.21.2009 – No DQ Match for the ROH Tag Team Titles) 4.00 (10 votes) 95. Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (Death Before Dishonor VIII 6.19.2010) 3.98 (37 votes) 96. Jay Briscoe vs. Mark Briscoe (Honor Invades Boston 8.24.2002) 3.97 (12 votes) 97. Xavier vs. John Walters (Final Battle 2003 12.27.2003 – Fight Without Honor) 3.92 (16 votes) 98. Kevin Steen & El Generico vs. The Motor City Machine Guns (Death Before Dishonor VI 8.2.2008) 3.91 (15 votes) 99. CM Punk vs. Raven (Death Before Dishonor 7.19.2003 – Dog Collar Match) 3.90 (11 votes) 100. Low Ki vs. AJ Styles (A Night of Appreciation 4.27.2002) 3.89 (17 votes)

'Mid-South - Total novice. I'm not sure I've ever seen a Mid-South match in my life. I know it's awful' Actually, Mid-South's rather good....

Interesting about the timing issues with Bad Blood, because I remember hearing back then that HBK threw a hissy fit when him v Flair was cut shorter than originally intended. Coming so late in the card, and with only the last of the triathalon and main event to follow, you'd wonder why they decided to chop it?

There's another long forgotten name!

Don't worry Kelly - I was watching it Friday evening. The teeth, the voice, Cornette's impressions - it had to be him!

Enjoying these podcasts a great deal. Like Parv, I'm learning shitloads as I go...

This is a fabulous thread. Really good stuff lads.

This might get more eyeballs here... On Best of WWF Vol 20 - Just before Hogan v Rude, that's Kevin Dunn in the skit arguing with Sean Mooney over the 'party', isn't it?