GOTNW

The way he worked versus Tanahashi and Nakamura is as throwback traditional New Japan style as it got in recent years. His gimmick was "strong style revival" before he went to do MMA, during that phase he was also part of a stable that worshipped Inoki as a deity. He trained with Maeda and Funaki somewhere around that time too. His style started to change once he started doing full tours, and I'd say it was for the worse. In the 2013 G1 he was pretty much working a semi shoot gimmick, everyone had to adapt to his style and work to get all of their usual moves in. Almost none of that is left now.

They started thigs off with Shibata absolutely dominating, nailing Tanahashi with stiff kicks and slaps. That theme of Shibata having the upper hand made Tanahashi's comeback more special and I think being a FIP let's Tanahashi play to his strengths more-he has plenty of offence that looks just fine, but I find it much more interesting when his triangle crossbody gets counterd by a brutal Shibata knee than when he hits every sinle move in his arsenal in 50/50 matches. Tanahashi can be a good seller-it can backfire when he goes too deep into Shawn Michaels melodrama like in some of the Okada matches and the Styles G1 one but here it was closer to what you'll see Misawa do against Kawada, where thsy take a shot that looks like it's maybe 7/10 stiff on its own but sell it so great it leaves a 9/10 impact on you. If there's one issue with this match it's that they started relying too much on the parity and the strike exchanges during the finish-which is where things like Tamahashi having a crappy Enzuigiri become a bigger issue than they usually are. Interesting to see the match had a double hair pulling spot and Shibata daring Tanahashi to hit him with Forearms, both of which have become staples of some 2010s New Japan matches. ***3/4

Everyone in New Japan is.

Gave this a rewatch, the opening amateur wrestling sequence was insane but the rest of the match didn't really live up to my memory of it being a possible best ***1/4

It's what I thought in real time as they happened while folks on DVDVR and WKO were calling Seth Rollins and Dean Ambrose these amazing workers, it's what I think now. I haven't forgotten any of those matches. Maybe to someone the EC tag is a match of the decade candidate, it probably wouldn't make my top 10 of 2014. Same with the TLC match they debuted in and the Cody/Goldust title switch and so on. I don't think their best matches are really much better than stuff like the Usos-Harper/Rowan tags and from a week to week standpoint I got way more out of the time where the focus was more on other times like Cody/Goldust, Cesaro/Swagger and whomever else. Cody Rhodes was a great hot tag during his run with Goldust. He's also been incredibly mediocre for most of his career. I have no problem acknowledging his good work during that run. If their performances had been more impressive to me I'd have vouched for them, but I was sceptical fo Reigns as well, and it turned out with good reason, and him eventually becoming as good as he was claimed to based on playing a specific role in trios matches doesn't change that.

Man Cassandra Miyagi does not seem to be very good at wrestling. I don't remember the last time something annoyed me as much as her just inexplicabaly falling down as Hashimoto was about to hit an ipponseoi nage. Then there was a spit spot, her making a great amateur wrestler do shitty crowd brawling and the biggest problem of them all-her controlling so much of the match while doing absolutely nothing interesting on offence. She used like 4 moves (a dropkick, a big boot, a leglock and a backdrop suplex variation) none of which looked particularly good and just hit them over and over and over again and after a while just started busting out bigger moves, there was no momentum shift, no memorable transition, nothing. The opening was fun as Hashimoto's amateur wrestling rolls and takedowns gave the matwork a nice flair as was the finish with her nuking Miyagi with bomb throwing but the Miyagi controlled portions of the match were completely forgettable. ***

They weren't that good and everyone who hyped Rollins and Ambrose as these great workers was wrong. Reigns only became the worker he was hyped as a year or so later. Some fun trios matches, but one's saying Mephisto is a world class worker, and he actually knows how to structure singles matches.

My issue with that match is that it's pretty much the least of the Hashimoto-Choshu matches. It's either that one or their Z-1 match. Both are good but disappointing for the insane standards of their all time rivalry. It's funny, going through the Hashimoto-Choshu matches that one seemed kinda formulaic, it was kinda depressing seeing the same spots they've done before done not as good, it seemed like the magic was gone, then they had that badass brawl in 2001 that was up there with all of their great stuff. I think that saying "the magic was gone" is wildly overstating things, but I do agree that this is not the best Choshu vs. Hash match of all time. It is, however, still my favourite epic NJPW Dome match and a great example of the kind of big epic battle that I enjoy. It's a matter of personal taste, of course, but in my book a lesser Choshu vs. Hash match is still more enjoyable and more suited to what I want from a big card main event than, say, the best-ever Tanahashi vs. Okada match or even the best-ever Shinsuke vs. Ibushi match. I like "everything is a real struggle" and I like "doing more with less" and I really like "taking your time with the basics and letting the crowd come to you" and I think this match is great in all of those categories. I'm kind of surprised I'm the only one who has picked it, to be honest. Oh you're not gonna get much disagreement with me about it being better than most recently hyped big Dome matches but for best Dome match ever I'd say Hashimoto-Takada and Hashimoto-Ogawa from 10/11/99 display that minimalistic philosophy even better.

I would not be surprised if you were to find there are 10 or even 20/30 matches you'd consider at that level if you continue watching and don't get bored with it. I probably mentioned that many moons ago when you were talking about the insane stiffness of a Flair/Garvin match or something like that and I said that 2000s abound with way stiffer matches. The Shibata-Ishii 1/4 Wrestle Kingdom match from last year is the ultimate peak of that style so that'd be a good one to check out.

I had planned to watch this for a while but seeing Jetlag put it as his MOTY pushed it over the top for me. And I have to say it really is that damn good. The matwork was absolutely wonderful, it had the grace and creativity of lucha mixed with the skill and intensity of shoot style matwork. The complete lack of pinfalls in the first two thirds of the match was such a nice change of pace, whenever you'd expect them to finally start doing pins and move on to "normal" wrestling you'd get stuff like Hashimoto turning her back to prevent being pinned or Satomura grabbing a surprise Headscissors after a Hashimoto flurry. Of course Satomura's kicks are a thing of beauty, she really knows how to control and pace a match and Hashimoto's lumpy offence ranges from good to excellent, she should probably drop the hip attacks but all of the sentons/splashes look nifty as does her spear. Her big throws worked perfectly as a means of comeback when Satomura would push her to the edge and I loved how Satomura tried one final ~fighting spirit~ comeback only to get cut off, that works way better as a pay off than three more no-selling sequences. The pop at the end was fascinating too, sometimes the simplest booking decisions provide the most reaction and that was definitely the case here. ****1/2

The thing about the rope running counters are that they aren't inherently bad-they worked great in 80s/90s All Japan-but you need moves and peril behind them. Naito and Tanahashi did have them-Naito in the Running Low Dropkicks and the Flying Elbow, Tanahashi in the Slingblade. But they opted to not use them for dramatic purposes, and that and the lack of big moves and spamming nearfalls is what made me go "that's it?" when the match ended. I realise these two are never going to do it for some people since they're Keiji Mutoh fanboys and their offence is juniorish in a way some dislike, but I think they structured a very good match that combined the best elements of the matches they worked back in 2010/2011 and the matches they worked now and recently. Tanahashi's character is one who often tries to match his opponents, which is one of the biggest reasons I disliked their 2015 G1 match a lot. It's much more interesting when one is reacting to Naito's character, but one also has to actually have a character to be able to do that. That Tanahashi didn't mimick Naito at all made his taunt after he laid him out at ringside mean much more as you could hear in the pop it got. Naito's character allowed him to to keep his legwork interesting by constantly finding ways to make basic spots fresh and varied-him directing Tanahashi's leg at the referee and using that split second to quickly quick it was brilliant, and I loved the desperate rope pull he did that prevented Tanahashi from hitting the High Fly Flow. Naito's Bridging German where his leg gave out at first but he used his other leg to kick himself back up and hold Tanahashi for the count was a neat detail and something that fits into how they treat limbwork very well. Them exchanging low kicks did look weak but outside of that they handled the mirroring spots surprisingly well. Not the match I'd have expected to most differ from New Japan conventions but I'm glad it did. ***1/2

I was excited to hear this was worked differently than their usual matches but after watching it I don't think that was such a good idea after all. In the typical Shibata/Goto match you'd get 1-2 no-sell sequences, usually one in the middle of a match and one to tease a double KO since that's how one of their matches finished, but here it was just non-stop. I quite liked the opening and how Shibata dominated, his headlock escape was lovely, but the terrible no-sell sequence in which Goto came back to control turned me off big time (seriously. he didn't even bother selling Shibata's corners Forearms by falling down to convince you Shibata could hit his corner dropkick, which in turn also made Shibata look stupid for running to the other corner instead of hitting Goto some more). They play to the worst and most predictable tendencies of the modern New Japan style that I've brought up a million times before (rope running when there's no move to be hit just to eat a move, questionable selling where counters delete all damage previously accumulated-unless of course you're doing a sequence or hit your finisher too early; then both wrestlers fall down). I enjoyed Shibata's offence as I always do, but Goto's was just terrible here as it always is, his Headbutts aren't really shoot headbutts, they can make impact but Goto's really hitting the chest/shoulders of his opponent and it's the sudden surprise of them that makes them work. When he's doing a flurry of those headbutts it looks really ridiculous, someone like Makabe would be dragged endlessly on all the hip social media if he were to do the same thing. Not a fan of all the backbreakers/neckbreakers that rely on him driving the opponent on his knee either, they look like he'd have to botch them for them to hit clean. I'd say your enjoyment of this depends on how much you like/tolerate modern New Japan cliches but that's where ratings for the match have quite surprised me. Maybe it sounds like I'm super negative on this but it's easier for me to write about things I think are bad than it is to write about five sentences about how Shibata hits hard, and I don't think the match had much other going for it. **3/4

I don't think many people would say having 52 matches at **** is "a lot" ( I certainly don't see anything controversial with it). But that between the Chono-Hase match, the Akiyama-Kobashi august 2000 match, the Evolve tag and now this match (maybe there are some other examples) that there is a trend of hyping matches that were agreed on as good/great as something more in this thread. That and what seemed like a pretty fast growth in the number of **** matches given here are what made me come to that conclusion, not any agenda or "trying to stir something up".

The star rating system has been the one most commonly used in wrestling criticism but with its most famous user adding a sixth one and the whole thing breaking down I do think it's a time for a thread like this. What do your ratings mean? What represents an all time classic, a MOTY, something that would make a top ten of a given year, something that would make a top fifty of a given year and so on. Does using star ratings instead of plain old numbers change the way people give them out? Could you freely convert your start ratings to numbers? Do you use some other system and if so what constitutes it, give some examples of matches you've rated with those ratings, what's borderline for you etc.

It wasn't taking shots at you. It's just an obeservation that was misunderstood (and could've been explained more clearly on my part and was later) that you read in too much. I do find it amusing you get so triggered that you're presenting other people's opinions as some kind of evidence along with the dreaded "I've been doing this for x years!". No matter how many quotes you bring it won't change the match not being the main (or second even) one people taked after the show, though I don't really see why that would be relevant to your opinion of how good it is anyway. I see none of those quotes utter the five star phrase btw. I'd expect thicker from someone who comes into threads with "x sucks/it's because x sucks" but I guess it's only an issue when it's you who's attacked?

Fine then. There is a disparancy between your ratings and those of most people in the modern matches you've seen that is most clearly represented in you giving five stars to several matches I haven't seen literally (literally literally) anyone else ever give five stars to. The percentage of the modern matches you give five stars too is higher than that of most people. Ie. you give a lot of matches five stars. Semantics!

This can be explained pretty easily: 1)As we've come to see, Parv give s a lot of matches five stars 2)He isn't familiar with the conventions of many of the modern promotions so what is standard in them impacts him more profoundly. I'm not going to go into whether being familiar with more styles can change your judgement of what you've previously thought (the obvious answer is yes) but it's clear it still hasn't happened with him.

My issue with that match is that it's pretty much the least of the Hashimoto-Choshu matches. It's either that one or their Z-1 match. Both are good but disappointing for the insane standards of their all time rivalry. It's funny, going through the Hashimoto-Choshu matches that one seemed kinda formulaic, it was kinda depressing seeing the same spots they've done before done not as good, it seemed like the magic was gone, then they had that badass brawl in 2001 that was up there with all of their great stuff.

Let's give it a shot. Worst thing that can happen is that's it's dead again. Last year's: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/34183-the-2016-moty-yesno-thread/?p=5751134 WWE John Cena vs AJ Styles vs Dean Ambrose vs Bray Wyatt vs Baron Corbin vs The Miz (Elimination Chamber 2/12) || 4 yes || 0 no || =4 John Cena vs AJ Styles (Royal Rumble 1/29) || 4 yes || 0 no || =4 Goldberg vs. Brock Lesnar (Wrestlemania 4/2) || 4 yes || 0 no || =4 Roman Reigns vs Braun Strowman (Payback 4/30) || 5 yes || 0 no || =5 Bayley vs. Alexa Bliss (Payback 4/30) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Kevin Owens vs. AJ Styles (Backlash 5/21) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Roman Reigns vs. Braun Strowman (Great Balls Of Fire 7/9) || 4 yes || 1 no || =3 The Hardys vs. Cesaro & Sheamus (Great Balls Of Fire 7/9) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Brock Lesnar vs Braun Strowman vs Roman Reigns vs Samoa joe (Summerslam 8/20) || 5 yes || 0 no || =5 Brock Lesnar vs. AJ Styles (Survivor Series 11/19) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 WWE NXT Shinsuke Nakamura vs Bobby Roode (Takeover 1/28) || 4 yes || 1 no || =3 #DIY vs. The Revival vs. Authors of Pain (4/1) || 4 yes || 1 no || =3 Tyler Bate vs. Pete Dunne (Takeover Chicago 5/20) || 3 yes || 0 no || =3 The Authors of Pain vs. #DIY (Takeover Chicago 5/20) || 3 yes || 0 no || =3 Asuka vs Ember Moon (Takeover Brooklyn 8/19) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 WWE UK Pete Dunne vs Tyler Bate (1/15) || 8 yes || 0 no || =7 Pete Dunne vs Mark Andrews (1/15) || 5 yes || 2 no || =3 WWE Mae Young Invitational Kairi Sane vs Shayna Baszler 9/12 || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 US indy Anthony Henry vs Fred Yehi (Style Battle 1/7) || 3 yes || 3 no || =0 Trevor Lee vs. Chip Day (CWF Mid-Atlantic 3/25) || 5 yes || 0 no || =5 Dominic Garrini vs. Cain Justice (CWF Mid-Atlantic, 2/25).|| 2 yes || 0 no || =2 Best Friends vs. Leaders of the New School (PWG 3/18) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Trevor Lee vs. Michael Elgin (CWF Mid-Atlantic 6/3) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 CMLL Barbaro Cavernario vs Rey Cometa (1/6) || 2 yes || 2 no || =0 Ultimo Guerrero vs Valiente (1/6) || 2 yes || 1 no || =1 AAA Dr Wagner Jr vs Psycho Clown (Triplemania 8/26) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Mexican indies Rey Hechicero vs. Caifan (Promociones El Cholo de Tijuana 1/6) || 1 yes || 1 no || =0 Imposible vs Relampago (IWRG 1/22) || 2 yes || 1 no || =1 Golden Magic vs. Pirata Morgan Jr. (IWRG 2/12) || 2 yes || 0 no || =2 Rush vs LA Park (Baracal Entertainment 3/11) || 3 yes || 0 no || =3 NJPW KUSHIDA vs Hiromu Takahashi (1/4) || 2 yes || 3 no || = -1 Katsuyori Shibata vs Hirooki Goto (1/4) || 7 yes || 2 no || =5 Tetsuya Naito vs Hiroshi Tanahashi ( 1/4) || 10 yes || 0 no || =10 Kazuchika Okada vs Kenny Omega (1/4) || 11 yes || 3 no || =8 Kazuchika Okada vs Minoru Suzuki (2/5) || 5 yes || 0 no || =5 Katsuyori Shibata vs Will Ospreay (2/11) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Hiromu Takahashi vs Dragon Lee (2/11) || 5 yes || 0 no || =5 Tetsuya Naito vs Michael Elgin (2/11) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Kazuchika Okada vs. Katsuyori Shibata (NJPW Sakura Genesis 4/9/) || 6 yes || 1 no || =5 Kenny Omega vs. Tomihiro Ishii (5/3) || 1 yes || 1 no || =0 Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega (Dominion 6/11) || 2 yes || 0 no || =2 Jushin Liger vs. Taichi (BOSJ 05/31) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi (G1 7/17) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Minoru Suzuki vs. Kazuchika Okada (G1 8/8) || 3 yes || 0 no || =3 Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tetsuya Naito (G1 8/12) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Kazuchika Okada vs Kenny Omega (NJPW 8/13) || 2 yes || 0 no || =2 Kenny Omega vs. Tetsuya Naito (NJPW 8/14) || 3 yes || 0 no || =3 AJPW Kento Miyahara vs. Jake Lee (4/15) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Kento Miyahara vs Shuji Ishikawa (5/21) || 3 yes || 0 no || =3 Kento Miyahara vs Suwama - All Japan 6/11 || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Naoya Nomura & KAI - 8/27 || 1 yes || 0 no || =2 Shuji Ishikawa vs Kento Miyahara - (8/27) || 3 yes || 1 no || =2 Kento Miyahara vs. Suwama (10/9) || 2 yes || 0 no || =2 BJW Kohei Sato & Shuji Ishikawa vs Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi (BJW 1/2) || 6 yes || 0 no || =6 Daisuke Sekimoto vs Hideki Suzuki (BJW 3/5) || 3 yes || 0 no || =3 Hideki Suzuki vs Yuji Okabayashi (BJW 5/5) || 4 yes || 0 no || =4 Hideki Suzuki vs. Hideyoshi Kamitani (BJW 5/25) || 2 yes || 0 no || =2 Hideki Suzuki vs. Ryuichi Kawakami (7/17) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 DDT & friends Saki Aki vs Miyu Yamashita (Tokyo Joshi Pro 1/4) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Yuu vs Shoko Nakajima (Tokyo Joshi Pro 1/4) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 UK Indies Drew Galloway vs. Bully Ray (WCPW 1/6) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Travis Banks vs Zack Sabre Jr (WCPW 1/6) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Marty Scurll vs El Ligero vs Gabriel Kidd (WCPW) 1/6 || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Katsuyori Shibata vs Matt Riddle (RevPro 1/21) || 2 yes || 3 no || =-1 Zack Sabre Jr vs Marty Scurll (RevPro 1/21) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 KUSHIDA vs. Zack Sabre, Jr. (RevPro, 4/13) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1 Other Indy El Phantasmo vs Kyle O'Reilly (ECCW 1/14) || 1 yes || 1 no || =0 Timothy Thatcher vs. Matt Riddle (wXw 3/11) || 1 yes || 0 no || =1

Mildly disappointed by this. I've been pretty high on Hiromu and said it looks like he's going to be the best junior New Japan's dojo has produced since Kanemoto. I might have spoken too early there. It's not like KUSHIDA's been lighting the world on fire but this match really should have been beter than it was. I was very intrigued by the beginning, where KUSHIDA cut-off Hiromu's sneak attack. That's a very unusual choice-one I off the top of my head don't remember seeing before. The whole point of the sneak attack is that the surprise element knocks the other wrestler goofy, and once you challenge conventions I'm expecting you to bring something interesting to the table. This match really didn't. KUSHIDA's first control segment was ok, set the pace well, Hiromu goading KUSHIDA into the Sunset Flip Powerbomb was excellently done.......and then KUSHIDA came back in control a minute later and sure enough they quickly threw any match structure they had out of the water so they could get all of their big spots in. When they returned to the armwork match became better and more focused though they didn't diverge from the modern New Japan standard off "you don't have to sell a move if you counter the next one". I'm not the biggest fan of the "take a shot-sell it for two second-fire back>both wrestlers go down" sequences either, but KUSHIDA's armwork and Hiromu's reckless offence provided enough for me to enjoy the match. **3/4

This was fine but nothing special, much like everything Cody Rhodes has even done. There was no way he was going to live up to the video package New Japan made for him, his acting was just so shit in this match, he's back to playing an evil genius from a cartoon, it just might be worse than Stardust. Kinda feel bad for Juice as he did look good here, I enjyoed his offence, guy probably could've had a three star match versus Nakanishi, instead he was forced to sell for Cody Rhode's Springboard Enzuigiri that misses by a foot. The Crossbody countered into a leglock was a cool spot that popped me for sheer novelty. An endless whirlpool of twenty second control segments and a quasi attempt at legwork didn't help matters either. **1/2

In which wrestling is but a live action version of an anime fight. Pretty standard junior match with them exchanging control segments throughout. Ibushi's athleticism is absolutely breathtaking, one has to admire how he he kept his balance on the top rope during the Triangle Moonsault dive and the speed with which he snapped his hips on the German Suplex. Some might be bothered by a one time only character having their finisher kicked out of and Ibushi doing a Tiger Suplex for a nearfall in the opening match of the normal show but it didn't bother me, the match was short and the its "finishing stretch" reflected the length of the match. My favourite version of Ibushi is the one where he heavily relies on his shootboxing background but this was reminiscent of the many junior matches I used to like before everyone decided to do poor Jack Evans cosplay. **3/4

Decided to watch this since last year's was mindless fun and this year's didn't do as much for me. No Fujiwara was a big blow, and it's pretty funny that the year they have Elgin win it they bring in two 50 year old american wrestlers whom both look bigger than him. Him working hope spots with Cheeseburger by having Cheeseburger do Superkicks and other *moves* was pretty cringeworthy, with how both of them are presented it just goes to show how little creativity Elgin has that he can only create drama through parity. I got a kick out of Hiro Saito being there and Kuniaki Kobayashi trying to do junior sequences with Liger but this match isn't something anyone needs to see. **

Ok, so here's the thing. I kinda watched this match. I didn't sit down and stare at the screen for two hours, since not even my love of Inoki is that strong, but I went through the entire match in a span of, idk, 20-30 minutes steadily skipping ahead, because I needed to know what happened in it. And what impressed me more than anything is how badass the whole thing looked-there was prety much an unlimited number of amazing shots. The setting is as big of a part of the match as anything the workers do, as you get these amazing shots of mountains and the ocean while Inoki and Masa Saito are fighting, really it's something you'd expect to see on a "Visit Japan" commercial with no context and just be in awe of what you've just witnessed. The biggest accomplishment of that match is probably its strange allure of a symbiosis between man and nature: Why did this image speak so much to me? Is it the nostalgia of my childhood, where I'd often run around parks with grass fields, (play)fighting and so on....or is it just an universal human feeling, something that we truly all sure, when we see a scene like this, of two men settling their issues by duking it out on grass. Will humans still relate to this picture if those futuristic movies ever turn into real life and we're slowly shut down in our own four walls? The shots reach another level when Inoki starts bleeding: And peak when they burn a bunch on wood on fire to provide lightning for them, really showing their dedication to evoke a scene of cavemen fighting. I guess calling this a shitty match that lasts is easy and the way people got out of even discussing it for so long, but it's about time it's recognized for the incredibly ambitious endeavour it was. These metamodernistic times in which meme wrestling is celebrated so freely give me hope this interpretation won't fall on deaf ears.

I don't think a C level TV show about wrestling that combines and maximizes the most annoying elements of mexican and american indy wrestling (annoying crowd shots used for JIPs, most of the matches being 50/50 AAA/PWG style spotfests, bad wrestlers being pushed due to ulterior motives) is exactly what the people longing for 80s TV wrestling shows are looking for. It does have the same primitive representation and faux celebration of women through the eyes of the "21st century" dudebro creative team however.