GOTNW

Did Fujiwara really *do* a porn, all I know is he directed one for a variety TV show.

Blue Panther matches from 91 and 97 are must sees. I'd also recommend the La Sombra match from the last Anniversaio which I thought was similar to the UG match but better in pretty much every way. I also really, really love this match I've seen no one else talk about: Basically Atlantis just punches the shit out of Perrito the entire match.

Sooooo I watched this today because I knew I hadn't seen one of the famous Lawler-Dundee matches and this was it. Turns out it is also easily the best of the bunch, at least in my opninion. I don't like doing pbp or pbp-esuq reviews by I'll start like that because I have I don't feel very creative right now. Anyway-they start the match-and Dundee just beats the shit out of Lawler, nailing a cheapshot in the beginning which both fits his character and way a really great looking way to gain control. And he beats the shit out of him a lot, mostly with amazing punches. They do a couple of really smart looking hope spots, first you get Lawler trying to fire himself up while he's one his knees and Dundee is punching the shit out of him, and just when it looks like Lawler might start a comeback Dundee kicks him in the head and flattens him with it. Second one was when Lawler finally managed to nail Dundee with a punch only for Dundee to literally run over Lawler with one of the best looking headbutts you'll ever see. I think it was after Lawler's first comeback that they started brawling outside, with Lawler smashing Dundee's head on the announce table, and them eventually getting near the stairs where Dundee punched Lawler OVER the stair barrier which was this really huge amazing spot I really didn't expect to see in a 1985 Memphis match. That was another meaningful and great looking transition which set up Dundee smashing Lawler's head on the announce table later on (which served as a revenge spot on top of being great looking) and more wonderful face punching. My only gripe with it was Lawler's comeback, I get why they did it but it felt like he got the shit beaten out of him too much for that to end being how he finally gains control. They make up for it with the amazingly set up (and quite surprising) finish. ****3/4 seems just.

This is just factually incorrect. You don't hear much criticism of the best lucha stuff ever because it is the best lucha stuff ever. Tamura-Han, Misawa-Kawda, Lawler-Dundee etc. don't get much critique outside of people who don't "get it". Triplemania was voted worst show of the year. AAA just sucks in general and has been mostly terrible throughout its history. Ultimo Guerrero-Thunder is the consensus worst feud this year to anyone who paid any attention to it.

I really loved the Kawada match. The NOAH tag was very fun but you've got to keep in mind with Shiozaki being a young lion they had to work it a certain way. And also it being an "interpromotional war" really wouldn't make any sense given the characters of the wrestlers and where they were at that time.

Well, now we need a list. I'll admit that was throwing a random number out more than anything (and one too high at that) buuuuuuuuuut I'm sure I could back even that number one if I watched as much anime now as I did 2-3 years ago. As it stands I would rank all of the following above OPM: Aku No Hana Baccano maybe Black Lagoon Code Geass Cowboy Bebop Death Note maybe Dragon Ball. I know there is a lot of Dragon Ball and my opinion on it fluctuates a lot. so probably some DB series FLCL Furiko Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo Gintama Hajime No Ippo Hellsing maybe Inferno Cop maybe Kill la Kill maybe Kino No Tabi: The Beautiful World Monster Mushishi maybe Natsume Yuujinchou NHK ni Youkoso! Oruchuban Ebichu maybe Outbreak Company Psycho Pass Sakigake!! Cromartie Koukou Samurai Champloo Serial Experiments Lain maybe Space Dandy Steins;Gate Trigun Tsumiki No Ie

The idea that One Punch Man, the 34th best anime I've seen is going to achieve the cult status of a western movie like The Godfather is pretty ridiculous. Status like that could only be achieved by western franchises so famous even the old men of prowrestlingonly have heard of them. It probably won't even come close to getting to where Dragon Ball did. It's a tumblr phenomenon about as much as anything, and I don't think it drew exceptionally strong ratings in Japan, it's not unlike any other bit of modern pop culture you won't know of unless you actively seek it out in one way or another.

Juniors haven't been relevant since Tiger Mask.

Him mattering is a part of the ridiculous DVDVR/PWO bubble. Move on fellas.

Ditto. A bunch of guys who are thrown around as having great longevity have had years where they didn't do much but people see them have great performances and matches in years that are far apart and assume they were that great in every year inbetween. Low Ki would be a great example, I love him as much as anyone but there plenty of years where he didn't do much. Having a short but incredibly consistent peak with all time great highs is an amazing feat.

Yuji Okabayashi http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/29523-daisuke-sekimoto/?hl=%2Byuji+%2Bokabayashi

I like the way Steamboat uses moves to control matches a lot more than I do the aesthetics of their execution. Not that there's anything wrong with them but it's really not what I associate with him.

Can we include Armdrag variations? Pretty much all Armdrags look the same to me but my gut reaction to that would be about 250 luchadores.

I like Steamboat but what's so special about his chops and armdrags?

Has "Zandig is crazy" been mentioned yet? That's the best promo. Haven't rewatched it but the Bryan-Cena slap promo would be a strong candidate for the best modern promo.

Casas, Santito, Dandy, Atlantis, Emilio Charles Jr., Virus, Perro Aguayo Sr., Sangre Chicana, El Satanico, LA Park, Super Astro, Pirata Morgan, Lizmark, Fuerza Guerrera, Black Terry and La Fiera are all currently on my list. I wish I could binge watch all the Solar/Negro Navarro/Bestia Salvaje/insert whomever to get a good impression of them other than "good at wrestling" but I don't see that happening.

I participated in Steve Yohe's project over at Classics a couple years back where a bunch of people sent in lists individually ranking the top wrestlers of all time factoring in star power, influence, work, drawing power, et. I can't remember what Yohe called the project, but that to my mind was a more holistic "Greatest Wrestler Ever" list. And if I'm being honest for that sort of endeavor if someone had Hogan as low as 18 I would consider their list either a joke, or biased to beyond belief. Can this be our next project?

We are at a point where this discussion is but a circle jerk. We had a clearly defined criteria at the beginning. It was one of the first questions asked. This list is about artistic worth, that much should be clear. Anyone challenging it at this point should just nor participate. If you want to include criteria other than ringwork that the community has agreed will be the main criteria and don't care how it affects the list in the end when people from a bunch of other places see it and we have to tell them "well, it was ringwork but this guy went by promos also, and this guy also cared about historical importance and the magnitude of someone's success", no one's gonna stop you. The problem I do find in thebrainfollower's argumentation is him acting like Trish Stratus is relevant. She's not. And neither was women's wrestling in the US in her time. Including her because she was put on a big platform and didn't suck seems incredibly unfair to the hundreds of people who didn't have the benefit of looking like top models. I think voting on, say, GIFS is a far more interesting and valid criteria than anything you've presented. I know. It sounds ridiculous because we are now in the anti-workrate era of "it's not about the moves!!!". And if you've paid enough attention to the board in the previous months you should know I'm about as anti-workrate as it gets. But I do see GIFs as relevant. Pro wrestling has auditive elements but it is foremosty a visual artform. ohtani's jacket, for example, has even said he likes to listen to albums while watching wrestling. And action is incredibly important. There's no one on this board meta enough to make a claim it doesn't. Structure, selling, use of transitions etc. are incredibly important, but when it comes down to it, there needs to be SOMETHING which you can point to as having enjoyed in the match in a clear, visceral way. I can't imagine ranking anyone I couldn't GIF. It could be a move, it could a facial expression, it could be a mannerism, but I can easily point to stuff in the match I enjoyed. Not saying GIFs are some ultimate criteria but, I can't envision there would be a worker in my top 500 who couldn't create strong visuals. They are also a quick way to remind yourself of what cool stuff somene is capable of. Searching for images, whether they are still or not, is an incredible part of the pro wrestling fandom. Terry Funk throwing chairs, Sangre Chicana bleeding all over the place, Tenryu smashing water bottles over someone's head, Santo hitting a dive so picture perfect and impactful it takes your breath away......all of those things you quickly associate with the wrestler you love and what they represent. If you search for images and GIFs of Trish Stratus what you'll find is content that has nothing to do with professional wrestling, even if they sometimes do take place in a wrestling ring. It's an interesting snapshot of american society, but that's not what we really argue about on pro wrestling only.

That's fair I guess, though so far removed from how I viewed the match that I really see no point in even debating its merit, especially since it's a gigantic PBP.

It's not outright badness, just general mediocrity which is disappointing from a guy who used to be capable of so much more. Kinda like that feeling you get from watch many Masa Chono matches; "this guy HAS a Certain Something there, but his body just isn't keeping up with him". Or, kinda like how Flair was during the nWo years. So carrying rookies to great matches, salvaging what should've been a shitfest by carrying a tag match by himself, having one of the best matches in Nakamura's career, having amazing brawls etc. is considered mediocrity? Why? Because he doesn't springboard as much as he used to? If you want to make specific arguments about why Ohtani's post-NJ work is underappreciated and suggest matches for people to check out, that would be great. I don't think it's a run that produced a billion MOTYCS (and that just isn't how I approach viewing anyway) but it did confirm his amazing adaptability. I'd intended to write a megapost on Ohtani eventually but if anyone needs/wants recommendations on his post-NewJa stuff sure I'll make a list. If it's just arguing with folks who're already familiar with his work in that timeframe I'd like for them to explain his alleged mediocrity and being bad.

It's not outright badness, just general mediocrity which is disappointing from a guy who used to be capable of so much more. Kinda like that feeling you get from watch many Masa Chono matches; "this guy HAS a Certain Something there, but his body just isn't keeping up with him". Or, kinda like how Flair was during the nWo years. So carrying rookies to great matches, salvaging what should've been a shitfest by carrying a tag match by himself, having one of the best matches in Nakamura's career, having amazing brawls etc. is considered mediocrity? Why? Because he doesn't springboard as much as he used to?

I will also note that I'm not a fan of the Muta character at all, hate both him coasting by doing random shit to look as "strange" as possible and pretty much any match he's in with a blade job.

What are the bad Ohtani performances?

I sometimes get the impression I'm considering 300 wrestlers for 10 spots on my list and Inoki isn't a lock but he could sneak in. He has the great matches (vs. Billy Robinson, Fujinami, Choshu, Fujiwara, Vader) and also a weird charisma where I will watch a match of his much rather than others that would probably end up being better. I also find his ideology far more exciting than Baba's patient and conservative approach.

He was a great TV worker from 2010-2012 and had great stuff in 2013 before the concussion. The Del Rio Payback match was the best thing he ever did and it's been downhill ever since. Won't consider him but I thought he should at least be brought up because it's possible someone will be looking at this stuff five years from now with a perspective of Ziggler being this amazing worker and wonder how he wasn't even brought up and that his case should at least be debunked. I think the biggest problem with Ziggler is who he looked up to and what he was taught was "great wrestling". God knows how many times he carried Randy Orton to very good TV matches but by the time he was being put in high profile feuds against the same opponents the matches weren't even as good as the ones they'd had on TV previously. Ziggler bumped big, came up with a lot of cool spots and counters and always worked hard but he could only go so far without constantly changing his highspots which he eventually stopped doing. A lack of credible offence is another issue obviously. I think he could've been a great wrestler in a different environment but when your favourite wrestler is Shawn Michaels.....eh.