InYourCase

Try to get into Joshi, continue to watch pimped lucha, try to get a Dragon System viewing project off the ground

I can't take any argument against the main event when the person says, "the heat wasn't anything special" Tiger the Dark vs. ACH - *** Young Bucks vs. RPG Vice - ***1/2 NEVER Six-Man - ***3/4 O'Reilly vs. Cole - ***1/2 GOD vs. CHAOS vs. GBH - ***1/4 KUSHIDA vs. Takahashi - ****1/2 Shibata vs. Goto - ****1/2 Tanahashi vs. Naito - ****3/4 Okada vs. Omega - *****

Aren't you the person who just marked out over a Dragon Gate match? This coming from someone that has obviously never watched Dragon Gate.

Do you think there's an argument that Sting's influence case has grown? I'm not saying I agree with it, and if I had a vote I wouldn't vote for Sting, but there's a certain aura around him that has grown in recent years. He's looked at as a legend by a large subject of mainstream wrestling fandom. There's a certain influence that he has. I don't think it sniffs Bryan's influence, or Punk's for that matter, but there's something there. What has he influenced? Modern babyface and match structure. Again, I don't see that too much, I am just looking at things from another perspective.

Do you think there's an argument that Sting's influence case has grown? I'm not saying I agree with it, and if I had a vote I wouldn't vote for Sting, but there's a certain aura around him that has grown in recent years. He's looked at as a legend by a large subject of mainstream wrestling fandom. There's a certain influence that he has. I don't think it sniffs Bryan's influence, or Punk's for that matter, but there's something there.

CIMA bounced up to 40%. Hopefully more people consider to give him a look, seeing as how now that Bryan is in, he's the most deserving person on the ballot.

Explain the logic behind sexual assault being "PC shit". And Joey Styles isn't a fucking comedian. There's no charm when he says it. He's a gross, old man. Him thinking that it was a joke doesn't make what he said any better. In Dave Chappelle's monologue this past Saturday, he said it in a way that brought healing. Styles' brought a harsh reminder that we live in a country that accepts sexual assault. Your logic about Gabe running an angle like that is beyond my comprehension. I can't imagine spewing that line out there and thinking it's logical. More power to you, I guess.

The live crowd groaned, but seeing the unedited clip and the way Styles went completely out of his way to make an unfunny sexual assault joke made it more disgusting than I would've ever imagined. It doesn't matter why anyone was offended. It was vile, and that's why he was fired. That and that he's a shit announcer.

I *think* you'll be all over his GHC run. It's heavy offense that you like, I'm just afraid you might think it's excess. If you get through it and you dig it, I think you'll have him lumped with Flair. The run is that good.

It's hands down the best title reign ever. I'm sure there's a Flair reign that compares to it, and I look at Mochizuki's 2011 run in a similar light, but nothing touches Kobashi from 2003-2005. Misawa, Honda, Bison, Owaga, Nagata, Rikio,, Akiyama, Takayama, Taue, ~MIKE AWESOME~, and MiSu, among others. There's nothing like it. I have the Misawa win, and both the Akiyama and Takayama matches at five stars. Then if you go a little past his loss to Rikio, he has an insane stretch with Sasaki and Tenryu. I'm repeating information everyone already knows, but i highly doubt there's a better three year stretch than Kobashi from 2003-2005.

Kobashi vs. Takayama is the Kobashi match Parv should be watching. And I second Dick Togo vs. Honda. That should be watched by every graps fan, ever.

I don't think EVOLVE has that different of a style compared to the norm? It's not World of Sport, Dragon Gate, or something completely revolutionary. It has its quirks, and I get what you're saying, I just don't think EVOLVE fits with the point you're making.

People that accuse Dave of having a bias towards Japanese wrestling often say "That would've been ****1/2 at the Tokyo Dome." He realizes the Dome is not the epicenter of puro graps.

Only tag match that comes close to the EVOLVE match from this year is Sekimoto & Hino vs. Okabayashi & Shiozaki from Fortune Dream 3. I gave both ****3/4. I don't look at them as all-timers, but both have a shot to finish in my Top 10.

I certainly don't disagree, but it's not a shot at US wrestling, it's more how it's presented.

If you watch more EVOLVE, I think you're going to fall in love with Yehi.

I'm not sure what being PC has to do with any of that, but sure.

I want to throw out 2005. -Joe vs. Necro -Peak NOAH 7/18/05 The start of KENTA's peak Tenryu comes in and fucks shit up Kobashi & Shiozaki vs. Sasaki & Nakajima -Arguably ROH's best year Punk vs. Aries (and the entire Summer of Punk) James Gibson vs. everyone Joe vs. Kobashi, Joe/Ki vs. Kobashi/Homicide Steel Cage Warfare KENTA vs. Low Ki, Danielson vs. Marufuji -TNA's year best, hands down X Division madness with Joe/Styles/Daniels Styles vs. Abyss in a cage -One of Dragon Gate's best years ever 7/3/05 six-man is PEAK Dragon Gate Milano vs. SaiRyo M2K reunion angle vs. Blood Generation 3/6/05 two out of three falls tag Nakajima, Mochizuki, and K-Ness all killing it Chikara and All Japan both had really strong years. WWE was fine. New Japan was the only promotion that really lacked something big.

Don Fujii is actually based off of Don Arakawa of New Japan fame. When he made the transition from Sumo Fujii to Don Fujii, there was a lot of confusion because people thought it was a weird English translation, like his name should have been Boss Fujii or something. Nope, just based on the lovely, handsome Don Arakawa. So there's a fun fact for your day.

I once heard Bryan Alvarez describe Dragon Gate selling as a video game health meter. The bar starts in the green, and with each move, it slowly dies down until you hit critical condition and then eventually die (or get pinned). He meant that to be an insult, but when I heard it, I thought it was the perfect comparison and in my mind, a really good point.

There are times when I'm annoyed by it, but that is few and far between. YAMATO vs. BxB Hulk from 7/20/14 is a great example. YAMATO works over Hulk's legs for 20 minutes and I swear, Hulk only used kicks when he was making his comeback and it was awfully annoying. I don't personally believe that there isn't a lot of attention to selling, but there are times that people have pointed out spots to me and I see where they're coming from. It just doesn't bother me, I guess.

Most hardcore Dragon Gate fans are left disappointed with most big singles matches in the company. There are exceptions, like Mochizuki vs. Shingo, the ones I listed earlier in the thread, or all of Shingo's last title reign, but singles matches are not the safe route with DG. Often times they work too slow in the opening minutes, so a 30 minute main event has about 8 minutes of action. Those 8 minutes are great, but there's obviously a large chunk there that isn't. That is my biggest knock on CIMA, and the reason I don't consider him to be on par with Shingo or Mochizuki. His long Dream Gate run that lasted from December 2011-July 2013 had some amazing moments and matches, but there were also a handful of performances that were so dry up until the finishing stretch. The match where he eventually lost the title to Shingo is very divisive among the DG hardcores for that reason. I also think that people don't realize what the promotion has become. Ultimo's original class looked like this, CIMA Don Fujii Judo Suwa Magnum Tokyo Dragon Kid Fujii works a sumo-style like Tenryu (in many ways he's DG's Tenryu) and Suwa was a fantastic base while he was in the company, which leaves three workers that were figureheads for the Toryumon days and all of them at times have been known to be spotty. Magnum stinks. He's one of the few guys the Dragon System has produced that I can't defend, and some people both in and out of the hardcore bubble actually really like him. No thanks. There's Dragon Kid, who at one point, was very spotty. Injuries and age caught up with his athleticism and now he's transformed into an incredibly smart worker when he needs to be. That leaves CIMA, who a lot of people in my bubble preach as one of the most under appreciated wrestlers of all-time and the most influential junior heavyweight of the 21 century (I fully believe both of those things). The second class had most of The Jimmyz. Genki Horiguchi, Jimmy Susumu, Ryo Saito (kind of), and K-Ness. K-Ness is a submission expert and the other three are great bases, if anything. Not flippy guys. After that, there's the T2P class with Milano Collection AT, Masato Yoshino, Naruki Doi, etc. They were all taught the Llave style, which is a weird form of speed mixed with tricked-out lucha submissions. There's nothing else like it and if you've never seen T2P, I suggest trying out a few of the pimped matches Ditch has up just to see if you'd like it or not. Most of the Toryumon X class is a waste. Ishimori now wrestles for NOAH, but as a whole they were so inconsequential and most of them never made it to a Toryumon proper event. That brings us to the Ultimo/CIMA split, and the start of the DG dojo. Shingo Takagi was the first graduate and was followed by BxB Hulk. There was a class of NEX students featuring Cyber Kong, YAMATO, and Kzy, among others. YAMATO, for my money, is one of the top five most well-rounded wrestlers going today, Cyber Kong is DG's token "giant", and Kzy has the best uppercut in wrestling (sorry, Cesaro). I would consider none of them for a Best Flyer award. There was a point in the late-2000s where the DG wasn't producing great talent - Tominaga, Ryu, Kotoka, etc. Guys that are currently wrestling at the bottom of the card. That brings us to the most recent dojo graduates featuring guys like Eita, Kaito Ishida, Yosuke Santa Maria, El Lindaman, & Futa Nakamura. Eita was a part of a class that trained mostly in Mexico (with T-Hawk and U-T), so he has a lucha/llave background. The other four, however, all specialize in one thing or another and it isn't speed or flying. Lindaman has a judo background that he uses in all of his matches and Futa Nakamura is a meathead. I bring those two up because they will be stars. Unless something horrible happens, count on those two leading the promotion in 5-10 years. I went through all of that to show people that this company isn't producing amazing, high-flying wrestlers. Super Shisa trains them to be experts on the mat and the newest generation (Lindaman, Nakamura, Ishida, etc.) could turn the promotion's style again because they aren't guys that work fast. The original Toryumon class has slowed things down, but they also have been since 2005. CIMA isn't 20 anymore. He can't do the things he used to do. Yes, he works quick, but working fast does not automatically equal no-selling or lack of psychology, and if you can't understand that then Dragon Gate will never be the promotion for you. Masato Yoshino is an interesting example of this because you'll remember Yoshino the first time you see him. No one runs the ropes as quickly as Yoshino does. Because of that, I personally feel like he gets labeled, whether it be singles matches or tags, as a spotfest worker, which is entirely bullshit. Few wrestlers today can build drama the way Yoshino does. For one, he has the best kickout at 2 that I've ever seen. He milks it, the 2.999, before throwing his shoulder up in the air. Yoshino's speciality in my mind is multi-man matches, whether that be tags or trios. He was one half of DG's most successful tag team ever with Naruki Doi (SpeedMuscle) and no matter where he ends up, he always seems to find a great tag partner. One of those partners was T-Hawk. I was blasted in my review for giving this match ****1/2 because a lot of people found it to be spotty bullshit, but Dragon Gate works on another level - no company, ever, puts more "storytelling" into their matches. That's why some people have such disconnect with their pimped matches. I watch every match that airs, I know what's going on. It's so incredibly hard to parachute into an important DG match and get it. I have a hard time recommending DG multi-man matches to people because there's so much going on, but when you watch it with context, it all makes sense. Yes, I get for some people that it is a stylistic thing and that it's just not for some people. I completely understand that because I feel the same way about other styles. To call Dragon Gate a promotion that is void of psychology, however, is flat out wrong. I'll go off Ditch's site to make things easier and hopefully shed a little context as a rec. some multi-man matches, CIMA/Fujii/Doi vs. Horiguchi/Saito/Dragon Kid - 7/3/05 To me, this is as good as it gets when it comes to DG multi-man. The story here is that Horiguchi comes in with a hurt back and Blood Generation targets it to death. Great callbacks to El Numero Uno 2003 (HAGE Fever) as Horiguchi does his best to put Blood Generation away with his Backslide from Heaven. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?9r40a10r22m2tvx Mochizuki/Yokosuka/Kanda vs. CIMA/Fujii/Shingo - 3/17/06 The original M2K returns as Kanda wrestles his first big match since a neck injury in 2001. This was at a point when CIMA was visibly pushing his prized pupil, Shingo, to do better in matches. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?8d8lwgag162l51l Shingo/Kong/Hulk vs. Doi/Yoshino/Kishiwada - 7/1/07 The most under appreciated match in DG's history. Biggest show of the year - the biggest match in the career's of Hulk/Shingo/Kong. The opposing side is representing Muscle Outlawz, a giant, prick-heel unit. Shingo's performance here is unreal. A breakout for the New Hazard side. http://theditch.us/NewHazardVsMOzKobe.avi tl;dr - Dragon Gate isn't what you think it is. A lot of it takes context and understanding to fully appreciate it.

Done. Hopefully this thread sees some more DG soon. Where's the list at? I try to check out the big matches on big DG shows but am sure I'm missing something by not closely following the product. The pace can get weary at times but there's absolutely room for what they do in my wrestling viewing and the big stuff that doesn't fall too heavily into the comedy are often thrilling. Grabbed a few matches off of Ditch's site that I think break the DG-stigma. Shuji Kondo vs. Dragon Kid - 7/4/04 http://theditch.us/K...onKid7-4-04.avi Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Don Fujii - 5/11/05 http://theditch.us/M...ujii5-11-05.avi Masato Yoshino vs. Don Fujii - 1/18/11 http://www.mediafire...tz3gg1gck5vbn6f Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Akira Tozawa - 10/13/11 http://www.mediafire...7yyw6w34p5oy73h Shingo Takagi & YAMATO vs. K-Ness & Kenichiro Arai - 2/7/13 http://www.mediafire...741krrd5u8wwngx

Done. Hopefully this thread sees some more DG soon.

A few things on a more serious note even though I'm still in shock - a lot of people watched this match in a vacuum at the time, and somehow, Parv, I think you got it more than anyone else that did. Takagi rules. For reference, I had him #21 in GWE. I don't think this is his best individual performance, but he obviously killed it here. He was in the midst of a feud vs. all of Dragon Gates legends - he went through Don Fujii, then Mochizuki, followed by Gamma (yuck), and then CIMA before he moved onto the next generation of guys. He was sick of CIMA and Mochizuki still clinging onto the spotlight, but because those two are so well respected by the DG fanbase, he came across like a huge dick. He's a bully. This was built up as Mochizuki's last big match and he wrestled it like that. I said in my review that it was maybe the best singular performance I had ever seen in a match. Meltzer said it was better than any individual HBK performance he'd ever seen. The selling holds you back from seeing that, which I totally understand. I think we look at selling differently in the first pace, but I know that the selling here didn't bother me because this was him giving all he had - 20 years dedicated to a sport, and this was his swan song. I gave it the full five. I think it's one of the 10 best matches I've ever seen. I'm shocked you liked it just because a lot of people that don't follow the company gave it a shot, and most of them didn't like it because of bullshit complaints like "Shingo's punches didn't look good enough". I'm thrilled you enjoyed it, Parv. Glad that people are seeing that DG is not full of guys that flip (they haven't been for almost a decade, but people still cling onto that).