InYourCase

I'm speechless.

Someone talk to me about Fujiwara. I like him, thrilled he's finally on the ballot because I felt that he at least deserved that recognition, but I'm surprised at the amount of people I've seen that are voting for him. What makes him standout more than Akiyama? Or CIMA? Is he a better candidate than Taue?

This is one of the best wrestlers ever (#13 on my GWE) and he's wasting away in Largo. I understand that he's not Shinsuke Nakamura, he doesn't have that star potential in NXT or the main roster, but the fact that he's wrestling someone like Riddick Moss in front of 200 people is completely ridiculous. I hope this is the end of his WWE tenure. It's not fun watching him in this state. It really, really bums me out, actually. He was hurt from the moment Balor walked in, but now with two injuries, there's no hope.

I can fully admit I've never had anyone try to submit me with a nerve hold. I do, however, think it's a dated move. One that doesn't hold up with modern times.

But why, in modern wrestling when a majority of the crowd understands that a nerve hold or a rear chinlock is not a realistic submission, do people still do it? It's not like wrestling is full of immobile giants. Sure, Kongo Kong can throw on a nerve hold. I'll roll my eyes, but he's a good enough worker to get past something like that. Why are people putting on holds that aren't in some way, shape, or form trying to end the match? Can we not have a little believability in our matwork? What is sitting in a chinlock, a la Roman Reigns, going to do for anyone? I think Kevin Owens, who I love, is just as guilty. His biggest flaw as a worker is the headlock that is shoehorned into every match he has now. I'm not saying that attempting to apply an armbar instead of sitting in a boring hold is going to result in a better match, but at least then, I can see that one of the competitors is trying to win the match.

For example, there was a period in 2000 when M2K was doing a gimmick called "the double ring-out committee". Their goal was to internationally ruin good matches by having them finish in a double countout. It was an awesome gimmick. That sounds like Parv's single least favorite thing ever. I need to win a bet with him so he'd have to review those matches. I would LOVE for Parv to review some of them haha. Lucharesu battles that end in a double countout.

I know you aren't a Toryumon/Dragon Gate guy, but there are very clear heels and faces in that promotion. M2K, Shin M2K, Mad Blankey, VerserK, etc. The promotions works on one bonafide heel unit, a bonafide babyface unit, and a handful of tweener units. For example, there was a period in 2000 when M2K was doing a gimmick called "the double ring-out committee". Their goal was to internationally ruin good matches by having them finish in a double countout. It was an awesome gimmick. Now they have Shingo Takagi who is straight up the best heel in wrestling. No one touches him. There's a big argument with followers of the product and Shingo because a lot of native fans say that the audience actually hates Shingo - not in a fun, kayfabe way, but that he's a huge turnoff for them, yet attendance didn't drop while he was champion for 11 months. He is a true heel however you want to look at it, however. A proper heel, if you will.

Hot take but I prefer Flair as a bayface. Him working underneath vs. Vader are my personal favorite Flair performances

In terms of star presence and charisma, I think he laps someone like Shawn. Savage is closer, but I also come from an era in which someone like Danielson, who presents himself as a more legitimate threat than someone like Savage resonates with me more than Savage's off-the-walls aspect or Shawn's...whatever. At his best, say a 2007 ROH show in the Hammerstein Ballroom, no one comes like a bigger star than Danielson. The Final Countdown, the streamers, the entrance, the intensity - that is professional wrestling how I like it. He is the man. I don't think he came across like a star the same way Cena does or Punk did during his WWE run, but he tried to present himself in a way that stayed true to himself, while also trying to morph into the WWE mold. He was goofy at times, but I can't put that on him. Savage is a much better promo than him, but I'll take Danielson as a talker over someone like Michaels. I think Danielson at his best in WWE, when he was incorporating "Yes!" stuff but it wasn't smothering him, he was outstanding. He's a convincing talker. He's not a traditional wrestling promo guy and I like that. He has to ramble, he has to make himself laugh, but when he hits the lines he needs to it, no one in modern wrestling comes across as a more convincing character.

I looked at it as wrestlers who are versatile in the ring. That's my natural inclination. When I discuss wrestling, I think about what's going on in the ring and how I want to be entertained. I noticed the promo part of the prompt. I could've said Funk/Flair/Eddie/Danielson - those guys all work. Again, my mind just drifted towards great Japanese wrestlers and they all have such an amazing presence. I can't imagine someone like Liger is a bad promo. I know from people that speak Japanese and follow Dragon Gate religiously that CIMA is considered to be an excellent promo. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I watch almost all Dragon Gate promos and I never have any idea what they're saying (until I read the translations), but they are all engaging speakers. El Lindaman, CIMA, Shingo, Naruki Doi - they have a cadence and a presence that is unmatched by most American wrestlers. I don't disagree with Parv. Maybe the Ted part, but hey, I don't get Ted.

Liger, CIMA, Danielson, and Fujinami. All have worked as top heels and babyfaces (I'll give Fujinami heel credit for his WAR run). I think all three check off the box for singles/tags/trios work. All have worked with great longevity, and I'm higher on Fujinami's 90s work than probably anyone, so they all check off being great young and old workers. Three of them don't speak English, so I'll ignore promo work. They all have such a great presence. CIMA, by all accounts, is one of the most engaging wrestlers to watch in-person. Of course, they're all great workers. Liger, Danielson, and Fujinami finished in my Top 20 for GWE and CIMA finished at 37. Some of the bests to ever step in the ring.

I came into the community right after voting ended for this, so I would love to see the results. I've seen most of the matches at this point. Would be interested to see where some of the peak Toryumon and DG ended up.

Kobushi vs. Akiyama - 8/6/00 Takayama vs. Kikuchi - 10/7/00 Kobashi vs. Akiyama - 12/23/00 Miasma vs. Takayama: 4/15/01 Liger & Wataru Inoue vs. Kikuchi & Kanemaru: 2/17/02 Takayama vs. Misawa - 9/23/02 Kobashi vs. Misawa - 3/1/03 Kobashi vs. Tamon Honda - 4/13/03 Taue vs. Nagata - 6/6/03 Akiyama vs. Nagata - 7/16/03 Kobashi vs. Ogawa - 11/1/03 Misawa & Ogawa vs. KENTA & Marufuji - 4/25/04 Kobashi vs. Takayama - 4/25/04 Takayama vs. KENTA - 6/27/04 Kobashi vs. Akiyama - 7/10/04 Takayama vs. Sano - 8/1/04 Akiyama & Tenryu vs. Kobashi & Shiozaki - 4/25/05 Kobashi vs. Sasaki - 7/18/05 Tenryu vs. KENTA - 10/8/05 Sasaki & Nakajima vs. Kobashi & Shiozaki - 11/5/05 All are on Ditch's site. That's sort of the golden age of NOAH. There's a whole list of juniors matches that I'd recommend, but Parv especially would hate them.

God this thread is so fascinating - not in a bad way, it's just so...different. Parv, are you going to watch NOAH stuff? Interested in your take on Takayama in that era, and whether or not you'll like Kobashi's GHC run.

Dick Togo is a potential gamechanger for WrestleMania weekend. Hope Beyond books him in a comedy tag with Joey Ryan and Kimber Lee

It's my understanding that they haven't locked up Taylor and Lee yet, which blows my mind. Keith Lee is awesome. One of the few guys that actually does his best work in Beyond.

I dig Shingo's jab. Love what Matt Hardy, Jay Briscoe, and KUSHIDA bring to the table, also.

"The intro of the Cruisers wasn't aimed at those of us who watched the CWC. It was aimed at the actual audience." I know WWE has a set way of doing things and as long as Vince/Steph/Dunn have a say in things, that won't change, but that's a shit reason. There is no reason that the build to the Cruisers debuting on Raw was that these survived the CWC, and throughout the show they took you round-by-round with the four guys that were on the show and explained why they were where they were. The presentation was shit. Yes, it was expected, but that doesn't make it right. Nah, I don't buy into that TJP argument at all. A video package? Great. The actual video package went a 1:45 and only a minute of that was focused on TJP. Now you're going to send him out on a PPV to a cold, dead reaction. He had no chance to make an impact. The PPV is in Indianapolis - I live in Indianapolis - I know that no one in Indianapolis knows who TJP is and a small video on Raw didn't help that fact. Give him the Strowman gimmick for a week. Have him go out there, tie someone up, and then cut a promo. It's not hard. There's no excuse for him not being on the show. That's a real broad stroke to paint Swann with. While he's dancing down the ramp, Cole is talking about how his parents died at a young age, but that's okay - Swann just likes to have fun~! Another black guy on the roster that just likes to have fun!

Nope. This is the only time goc and I will agree completely. Rollins is no bueno, especially in this current incarnation. The main event scene with Owens is embarrassing. Owens could be THE babyface on the red brand. He has that talent and charisma. There's no reason that he shouldn't be the "it guy", but instead he's just a supporting cast member in the Steph/Triple H/Mick Foley vanity fair. Also, imagine thinking there's a political hit on Reigns when he's supposedly a #1 contender for a midcard title and he beats the World Champion. Good stuff, guys. The Cruiserweight presentation was dreadful. I didn't expect it to be anything like the CWC, which was top notch, but God that was bad. Swann is already just another black guy that likes to have fun. HOW, in THREE HOURS, do you not have time for TJP? Are there that many stories to tell? That's inexcusable. They didn't have English subtitles for the Metalik insert promo, which, again, HOW? I thought Kendrick look poor. He peaked with the Ibushi match, which isn't surprising. An entire crop of wrestlers have peaked with Ibushi. I love Spanky-era Kendrick, wish I could like this era of Kendrick, but it's not going to be pretty.

I love the punk rock feel that Toryumon had to it from 1999-2003 (2004 before the split is awful). Obviously I wasn't watching in real time but going back and watching every bit of Toryumon that I can get my hands on, it felt like they were going out there and trying to prove something every time they stepped foot in the ring. CIMA had such a chip on his shoulder. They've grown up, and the young kids, Lindaman, Kaito Ishida, Futa Nakamura (who will be a star), and others present that same aura, but the promotion as a whole feels grown up. I can't think of a good music comp that PWO-land would understand or else I'd make one.

Thought the Toryumon talk was very interesting. I think Bix mentioned it last time the promotion came up also, but I can see where he's coming from when he's saying that he prefers Toryumon to Dragon Gate because things felt less homogenized in Toryumon. Toryumon was a little scary because there was such a high ceiling, but also a terribly low floor. CIMA, Mochizuki, and Dragon Kid were outstanding, yeah, but pre-NOAH Suwa, Taru, Shogo Takagi, etc had the ability to ruin things if they were at their worst. Good point on the roster exploding once T2P and Toryumon came together. 2003 had the El Numero Uno tournament and the 8/30/03 tag. That's peak in-ring Toryumon, even if some of the booking was obnoxious.

1) He's been the face of Toryumon/Dragon Gate for 16 years now, and I'm a firm believer for the past 8-10 years they've been the #2 in Japan. They cycle guys up and down the card, so even their current top stars go through periods where they are in no position to draw, but CIMA has seemingly stayed at the top of the card since the inception of the promotion, and even when they had powerhouses like Milano, Mochizuki, Dragon Kid, or Magnum TOKYO (yuck), the promotion still felt like CIMA's promotion. Dragon Gate inflates numbers, but you can give any of their shows the eyeball test and see that venues are packed. He had a very well received (from a box office standpoint) Dream Gate reign that lasted from December 2011 to July 2013. I don't recall reports of any show bombing in attendance. Should note he's done very well globally, whether that be in Germany, Australia, or America, also. 2) Super Shisa is the head trainer in the Dragon Gate dojo, but it's my understanding that at one point, CIMA was in charge of the training - notably for the first generation of guys - Shingo Takagi, BxB Hulk, etc. Regardless of how much time he's physically put in the dojo, he's a major influence on an entire generation of junior heavyweights. He's been a major influence on a handful of American wrestlers. Jack Evans, PAC, Ricochet, Rich Swann, and Matt Sydal would not be where they are without CIMA. Evans, Sydal, and Ricochet specifically spent time teaming with CIMA and there's a huge difference in their work before CIMA and after CIMA. Swann never teamed with CIMA, but wrestled him constantly for three years straight from 2011 to 2013. Upped Swann's game. PAC wrestled and teamed with CIMA throughout his entire time in Dragon Gate and I think he's the biggest example of "what the Dragon System can do for you" because 2007 PAC and 2012 PAC are drastically different. 3) I voted CIMA #39 in the GWE poll and five months later, I probably could've talked myself into putting him in my 30-35 range. He's noticeably very good in his FIRST televised match In total I've given three CIMA matches five stars - 7/3/05, 3/31/06, and 7/17/11. Those are all tags or six-mans that CIMA has played a major rule in. I think he has a stronger output from 1999-2004 than Masaaki Mochizuki (#10 on my GWE ballot) did, and in the years since, has delivered countless classics. I'm working on something for CIMA's HOF case and sadly, I don't know if it'll be done before ballots are due. It involves some outside people, some of which are very slow with their communication. That's a brief rundown. I know he won't get it, but in my mind he is a 100% deserving HOF'er. I don't think he's the best Dragon Gate wrestler of all-time. In fact, I think there are guys that smoke him when it comes to in-ring, but with these criterias, he should be a no-brainer. He checks all of the boxes. The prime of his career is over. There are 16 years of analyzation that can be done on him. Pull the trigger. Vote for him.

Will be dumbfounded again if Danielson and CIMA don't get it. They should be locks. Should've been in last year.

El Numero Uno 2003 is one of my favorite shows ever. There have been few matches in recent years with more sound psychology than Shingo Takagi vs. YAMATO from 7/24 this year, fwiw

Should note that anyone saying Dragon Gate doesn't value psychology doesn't watch Dragon Gate, because they're objectively wrong if they say that.