InYourCase

Most hardcore Dragon Gate fans are left disappointed with most big singles matches in the company. There are exceptions, like Mochizuki vs. Shingo, the ones I listed earlier in the thread, or all of Shingo's last title reign, but singles matches are not the safe route with DG. Often times they work too slow in the opening minutes, so a 30 minute main event has about 8 minutes of action. Those 8 minutes are great, but there's obviously a large chunk there that isn't. That is my biggest knock on CIMA, and the reason I don't consider him to be on par with Shingo or Mochizuki. His long Dream Gate run that lasted from December 2011-July 2013 had some amazing moments and matches, but there were also a handful of performances that were so dry up until the finishing stretch. The match where he eventually lost the title to Shingo is very divisive among the DG hardcores for that reason. I also think that people don't realize what the promotion has become. Ultimo's original class looked like this, CIMA Don Fujii Judo Suwa Magnum Tokyo Dragon Kid Fujii works a sumo-style like Tenryu (in many ways he's DG's Tenryu) and Suwa was a fantastic base while he was in the company, which leaves three workers that were figureheads for the Toryumon days and all of them at times have been known to be spotty. Magnum stinks. He's one of the few guys the Dragon System has produced that I can't defend, and some people both in and out of the hardcore bubble actually really like him. No thanks. There's Dragon Kid, who at one point, was very spotty. Injuries and age caught up with his athleticism and now he's transformed into an incredibly smart worker when he needs to be. That leaves CIMA, who a lot of people in my bubble preach as one of the most under appreciated wrestlers of all-time and the most influential junior heavyweight of the 21 century (I fully believe both of those things). The second class had most of The Jimmyz. Genki Horiguchi, Jimmy Susumu, Ryo Saito (kind of), and K-Ness. K-Ness is a submission expert and the other three are great bases, if anything. Not flippy guys. After that, there's the T2P class with Milano Collection AT, Masato Yoshino, Naruki Doi, etc. They were all taught the Llave style, which is a weird form of speed mixed with tricked-out lucha submissions. There's nothing else like it and if you've never seen T2P, I suggest trying out a few of the pimped matches Ditch has up just to see if you'd like it or not. Most of the Toryumon X class is a waste. Ishimori now wrestles for NOAH, but as a whole they were so inconsequential and most of them never made it to a Toryumon proper event. That brings us to the Ultimo/CIMA split, and the start of the DG dojo. Shingo Takagi was the first graduate and was followed by BxB Hulk. There was a class of NEX students featuring Cyber Kong, YAMATO, and Kzy, among others. YAMATO, for my money, is one of the top five most well-rounded wrestlers going today, Cyber Kong is DG's token "giant", and Kzy has the best uppercut in wrestling (sorry, Cesaro). I would consider none of them for a Best Flyer award. There was a point in the late-2000s where the DG wasn't producing great talent - Tominaga, Ryu, Kotoka, etc. Guys that are currently wrestling at the bottom of the card. That brings us to the most recent dojo graduates featuring guys like Eita, Kaito Ishida, Yosuke Santa Maria, El Lindaman, & Futa Nakamura. Eita was a part of a class that trained mostly in Mexico (with T-Hawk and U-T), so he has a lucha/llave background. The other four, however, all specialize in one thing or another and it isn't speed or flying. Lindaman has a judo background that he uses in all of his matches and Futa Nakamura is a meathead. I bring those two up because they will be stars. Unless something horrible happens, count on those two leading the promotion in 5-10 years. I went through all of that to show people that this company isn't producing amazing, high-flying wrestlers. Super Shisa trains them to be experts on the mat and the newest generation (Lindaman, Nakamura, Ishida, etc.) could turn the promotion's style again because they aren't guys that work fast. The original Toryumon class has slowed things down, but they also have been since 2005. CIMA isn't 20 anymore. He can't do the things he used to do. Yes, he works quick, but working fast does not automatically equal no-selling or lack of psychology, and if you can't understand that then Dragon Gate will never be the promotion for you. Masato Yoshino is an interesting example of this because you'll remember Yoshino the first time you see him. No one runs the ropes as quickly as Yoshino does. Because of that, I personally feel like he gets labeled, whether it be singles matches or tags, as a spotfest worker, which is entirely bullshit. Few wrestlers today can build drama the way Yoshino does. For one, he has the best kickout at 2 that I've ever seen. He milks it, the 2.999, before throwing his shoulder up in the air. Yoshino's speciality in my mind is multi-man matches, whether that be tags or trios. He was one half of DG's most successful tag team ever with Naruki Doi (SpeedMuscle) and no matter where he ends up, he always seems to find a great tag partner. One of those partners was T-Hawk. I was blasted in my review for giving this match ****1/2 because a lot of people found it to be spotty bullshit, but Dragon Gate works on another level - no company, ever, puts more "storytelling" into their matches. That's why some people have such disconnect with their pimped matches. I watch every match that airs, I know what's going on. It's so incredibly hard to parachute into an important DG match and get it. I have a hard time recommending DG multi-man matches to people because there's so much going on, but when you watch it with context, it all makes sense. Yes, I get for some people that it is a stylistic thing and that it's just not for some people. I completely understand that because I feel the same way about other styles. To call Dragon Gate a promotion that is void of psychology, however, is flat out wrong. I'll go off Ditch's site to make things easier and hopefully shed a little context as a rec. some multi-man matches, CIMA/Fujii/Doi vs. Horiguchi/Saito/Dragon Kid - 7/3/05 To me, this is as good as it gets when it comes to DG multi-man. The story here is that Horiguchi comes in with a hurt back and Blood Generation targets it to death. Great callbacks to El Numero Uno 2003 (HAGE Fever) as Horiguchi does his best to put Blood Generation away with his Backslide from Heaven. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?9r40a10r22m2tvx Mochizuki/Yokosuka/Kanda vs. CIMA/Fujii/Shingo - 3/17/06 The original M2K returns as Kanda wrestles his first big match since a neck injury in 2001. This was at a point when CIMA was visibly pushing his prized pupil, Shingo, to do better in matches. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?8d8lwgag162l51l Shingo/Kong/Hulk vs. Doi/Yoshino/Kishiwada - 7/1/07 The most under appreciated match in DG's history. Biggest show of the year - the biggest match in the career's of Hulk/Shingo/Kong. The opposing side is representing Muscle Outlawz, a giant, prick-heel unit. Shingo's performance here is unreal. A breakout for the New Hazard side. http://theditch.us/NewHazardVsMOzKobe.avi tl;dr - Dragon Gate isn't what you think it is. A lot of it takes context and understanding to fully appreciate it.

Done. Hopefully this thread sees some more DG soon. Where's the list at? I try to check out the big matches on big DG shows but am sure I'm missing something by not closely following the product. The pace can get weary at times but there's absolutely room for what they do in my wrestling viewing and the big stuff that doesn't fall too heavily into the comedy are often thrilling. Grabbed a few matches off of Ditch's site that I think break the DG-stigma. Shuji Kondo vs. Dragon Kid - 7/4/04 http://theditch.us/K...onKid7-4-04.avi Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Don Fujii - 5/11/05 http://theditch.us/M...ujii5-11-05.avi Masato Yoshino vs. Don Fujii - 1/18/11 http://www.mediafire...tz3gg1gck5vbn6f Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Akira Tozawa - 10/13/11 http://www.mediafire...7yyw6w34p5oy73h Shingo Takagi & YAMATO vs. K-Ness & Kenichiro Arai - 2/7/13 http://www.mediafire...741krrd5u8wwngx

Done. Hopefully this thread sees some more DG soon.

A few things on a more serious note even though I'm still in shock - a lot of people watched this match in a vacuum at the time, and somehow, Parv, I think you got it more than anyone else that did. Takagi rules. For reference, I had him #21 in GWE. I don't think this is his best individual performance, but he obviously killed it here. He was in the midst of a feud vs. all of Dragon Gates legends - he went through Don Fujii, then Mochizuki, followed by Gamma (yuck), and then CIMA before he moved onto the next generation of guys. He was sick of CIMA and Mochizuki still clinging onto the spotlight, but because those two are so well respected by the DG fanbase, he came across like a huge dick. He's a bully. This was built up as Mochizuki's last big match and he wrestled it like that. I said in my review that it was maybe the best singular performance I had ever seen in a match. Meltzer said it was better than any individual HBK performance he'd ever seen. The selling holds you back from seeing that, which I totally understand. I think we look at selling differently in the first pace, but I know that the selling here didn't bother me because this was him giving all he had - 20 years dedicated to a sport, and this was his swan song. I gave it the full five. I think it's one of the 10 best matches I've ever seen. I'm shocked you liked it just because a lot of people that don't follow the company gave it a shot, and most of them didn't like it because of bullshit complaints like "Shingo's punches didn't look good enough". I'm thrilled you enjoyed it, Parv. Glad that people are seeing that DG is not full of guys that flip (they haven't been for almost a decade, but people still cling onto that).

I'm speechless.

Someone talk to me about Fujiwara. I like him, thrilled he's finally on the ballot because I felt that he at least deserved that recognition, but I'm surprised at the amount of people I've seen that are voting for him. What makes him standout more than Akiyama? Or CIMA? Is he a better candidate than Taue?

This is one of the best wrestlers ever (#13 on my GWE) and he's wasting away in Largo. I understand that he's not Shinsuke Nakamura, he doesn't have that star potential in NXT or the main roster, but the fact that he's wrestling someone like Riddick Moss in front of 200 people is completely ridiculous. I hope this is the end of his WWE tenure. It's not fun watching him in this state. It really, really bums me out, actually. He was hurt from the moment Balor walked in, but now with two injuries, there's no hope.

I can fully admit I've never had anyone try to submit me with a nerve hold. I do, however, think it's a dated move. One that doesn't hold up with modern times.

But why, in modern wrestling when a majority of the crowd understands that a nerve hold or a rear chinlock is not a realistic submission, do people still do it? It's not like wrestling is full of immobile giants. Sure, Kongo Kong can throw on a nerve hold. I'll roll my eyes, but he's a good enough worker to get past something like that. Why are people putting on holds that aren't in some way, shape, or form trying to end the match? Can we not have a little believability in our matwork? What is sitting in a chinlock, a la Roman Reigns, going to do for anyone? I think Kevin Owens, who I love, is just as guilty. His biggest flaw as a worker is the headlock that is shoehorned into every match he has now. I'm not saying that attempting to apply an armbar instead of sitting in a boring hold is going to result in a better match, but at least then, I can see that one of the competitors is trying to win the match.

For example, there was a period in 2000 when M2K was doing a gimmick called "the double ring-out committee". Their goal was to internationally ruin good matches by having them finish in a double countout. It was an awesome gimmick. That sounds like Parv's single least favorite thing ever. I need to win a bet with him so he'd have to review those matches. I would LOVE for Parv to review some of them haha. Lucharesu battles that end in a double countout.

I know you aren't a Toryumon/Dragon Gate guy, but there are very clear heels and faces in that promotion. M2K, Shin M2K, Mad Blankey, VerserK, etc. The promotions works on one bonafide heel unit, a bonafide babyface unit, and a handful of tweener units. For example, there was a period in 2000 when M2K was doing a gimmick called "the double ring-out committee". Their goal was to internationally ruin good matches by having them finish in a double countout. It was an awesome gimmick. Now they have Shingo Takagi who is straight up the best heel in wrestling. No one touches him. There's a big argument with followers of the product and Shingo because a lot of native fans say that the audience actually hates Shingo - not in a fun, kayfabe way, but that he's a huge turnoff for them, yet attendance didn't drop while he was champion for 11 months. He is a true heel however you want to look at it, however. A proper heel, if you will.

Hot take but I prefer Flair as a bayface. Him working underneath vs. Vader are my personal favorite Flair performances

In terms of star presence and charisma, I think he laps someone like Shawn. Savage is closer, but I also come from an era in which someone like Danielson, who presents himself as a more legitimate threat than someone like Savage resonates with me more than Savage's off-the-walls aspect or Shawn's...whatever. At his best, say a 2007 ROH show in the Hammerstein Ballroom, no one comes like a bigger star than Danielson. The Final Countdown, the streamers, the entrance, the intensity - that is professional wrestling how I like it. He is the man. I don't think he came across like a star the same way Cena does or Punk did during his WWE run, but he tried to present himself in a way that stayed true to himself, while also trying to morph into the WWE mold. He was goofy at times, but I can't put that on him. Savage is a much better promo than him, but I'll take Danielson as a talker over someone like Michaels. I think Danielson at his best in WWE, when he was incorporating "Yes!" stuff but it wasn't smothering him, he was outstanding. He's a convincing talker. He's not a traditional wrestling promo guy and I like that. He has to ramble, he has to make himself laugh, but when he hits the lines he needs to it, no one in modern wrestling comes across as a more convincing character.

I looked at it as wrestlers who are versatile in the ring. That's my natural inclination. When I discuss wrestling, I think about what's going on in the ring and how I want to be entertained. I noticed the promo part of the prompt. I could've said Funk/Flair/Eddie/Danielson - those guys all work. Again, my mind just drifted towards great Japanese wrestlers and they all have such an amazing presence. I can't imagine someone like Liger is a bad promo. I know from people that speak Japanese and follow Dragon Gate religiously that CIMA is considered to be an excellent promo. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I watch almost all Dragon Gate promos and I never have any idea what they're saying (until I read the translations), but they are all engaging speakers. El Lindaman, CIMA, Shingo, Naruki Doi - they have a cadence and a presence that is unmatched by most American wrestlers. I don't disagree with Parv. Maybe the Ted part, but hey, I don't get Ted.

Liger, CIMA, Danielson, and Fujinami. All have worked as top heels and babyfaces (I'll give Fujinami heel credit for his WAR run). I think all three check off the box for singles/tags/trios work. All have worked with great longevity, and I'm higher on Fujinami's 90s work than probably anyone, so they all check off being great young and old workers. Three of them don't speak English, so I'll ignore promo work. They all have such a great presence. CIMA, by all accounts, is one of the most engaging wrestlers to watch in-person. Of course, they're all great workers. Liger, Danielson, and Fujinami finished in my Top 20 for GWE and CIMA finished at 37. Some of the bests to ever step in the ring.

I came into the community right after voting ended for this, so I would love to see the results. I've seen most of the matches at this point. Would be interested to see where some of the peak Toryumon and DG ended up.

Kobushi vs. Akiyama - 8/6/00 Takayama vs. Kikuchi - 10/7/00 Kobashi vs. Akiyama - 12/23/00 Miasma vs. Takayama: 4/15/01 Liger & Wataru Inoue vs. Kikuchi & Kanemaru: 2/17/02 Takayama vs. Misawa - 9/23/02 Kobashi vs. Misawa - 3/1/03 Kobashi vs. Tamon Honda - 4/13/03 Taue vs. Nagata - 6/6/03 Akiyama vs. Nagata - 7/16/03 Kobashi vs. Ogawa - 11/1/03 Misawa & Ogawa vs. KENTA & Marufuji - 4/25/04 Kobashi vs. Takayama - 4/25/04 Takayama vs. KENTA - 6/27/04 Kobashi vs. Akiyama - 7/10/04 Takayama vs. Sano - 8/1/04 Akiyama & Tenryu vs. Kobashi & Shiozaki - 4/25/05 Kobashi vs. Sasaki - 7/18/05 Tenryu vs. KENTA - 10/8/05 Sasaki & Nakajima vs. Kobashi & Shiozaki - 11/5/05 All are on Ditch's site. That's sort of the golden age of NOAH. There's a whole list of juniors matches that I'd recommend, but Parv especially would hate them.

God this thread is so fascinating - not in a bad way, it's just so...different. Parv, are you going to watch NOAH stuff? Interested in your take on Takayama in that era, and whether or not you'll like Kobashi's GHC run.

Dick Togo is a potential gamechanger for WrestleMania weekend. Hope Beyond books him in a comedy tag with Joey Ryan and Kimber Lee

It's my understanding that they haven't locked up Taylor and Lee yet, which blows my mind. Keith Lee is awesome. One of the few guys that actually does his best work in Beyond.

I dig Shingo's jab. Love what Matt Hardy, Jay Briscoe, and KUSHIDA bring to the table, also.

"The intro of the Cruisers wasn't aimed at those of us who watched the CWC. It was aimed at the actual audience." I know WWE has a set way of doing things and as long as Vince/Steph/Dunn have a say in things, that won't change, but that's a shit reason. There is no reason that the build to the Cruisers debuting on Raw was that these survived the CWC, and throughout the show they took you round-by-round with the four guys that were on the show and explained why they were where they were. The presentation was shit. Yes, it was expected, but that doesn't make it right. Nah, I don't buy into that TJP argument at all. A video package? Great. The actual video package went a 1:45 and only a minute of that was focused on TJP. Now you're going to send him out on a PPV to a cold, dead reaction. He had no chance to make an impact. The PPV is in Indianapolis - I live in Indianapolis - I know that no one in Indianapolis knows who TJP is and a small video on Raw didn't help that fact. Give him the Strowman gimmick for a week. Have him go out there, tie someone up, and then cut a promo. It's not hard. There's no excuse for him not being on the show. That's a real broad stroke to paint Swann with. While he's dancing down the ramp, Cole is talking about how his parents died at a young age, but that's okay - Swann just likes to have fun~! Another black guy on the roster that just likes to have fun!

Nope. This is the only time goc and I will agree completely. Rollins is no bueno, especially in this current incarnation. The main event scene with Owens is embarrassing. Owens could be THE babyface on the red brand. He has that talent and charisma. There's no reason that he shouldn't be the "it guy", but instead he's just a supporting cast member in the Steph/Triple H/Mick Foley vanity fair. Also, imagine thinking there's a political hit on Reigns when he's supposedly a #1 contender for a midcard title and he beats the World Champion. Good stuff, guys. The Cruiserweight presentation was dreadful. I didn't expect it to be anything like the CWC, which was top notch, but God that was bad. Swann is already just another black guy that likes to have fun. HOW, in THREE HOURS, do you not have time for TJP? Are there that many stories to tell? That's inexcusable. They didn't have English subtitles for the Metalik insert promo, which, again, HOW? I thought Kendrick look poor. He peaked with the Ibushi match, which isn't surprising. An entire crop of wrestlers have peaked with Ibushi. I love Spanky-era Kendrick, wish I could like this era of Kendrick, but it's not going to be pretty.

I love the punk rock feel that Toryumon had to it from 1999-2003 (2004 before the split is awful). Obviously I wasn't watching in real time but going back and watching every bit of Toryumon that I can get my hands on, it felt like they were going out there and trying to prove something every time they stepped foot in the ring. CIMA had such a chip on his shoulder. They've grown up, and the young kids, Lindaman, Kaito Ishida, Futa Nakamura (who will be a star), and others present that same aura, but the promotion as a whole feels grown up. I can't think of a good music comp that PWO-land would understand or else I'd make one.

Thought the Toryumon talk was very interesting. I think Bix mentioned it last time the promotion came up also, but I can see where he's coming from when he's saying that he prefers Toryumon to Dragon Gate because things felt less homogenized in Toryumon. Toryumon was a little scary because there was such a high ceiling, but also a terribly low floor. CIMA, Mochizuki, and Dragon Kid were outstanding, yeah, but pre-NOAH Suwa, Taru, Shogo Takagi, etc had the ability to ruin things if they were at their worst. Good point on the roster exploding once T2P and Toryumon came together. 2003 had the El Numero Uno tournament and the 8/30/03 tag. That's peak in-ring Toryumon, even if some of the booking was obnoxious.