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August 1983 Lizmark vs Enfermero Jr. This is supposedly the earliest Lizmark match of which known video exists. At least I think I remember reading that. I appreciate it whenever the seconds look like actual members of their guy's training camp, and here MS-1 wore a jacket with pretty "ENFERMERO JR" lettering on the back, and Aristoteles had donned a blue and silver pants+jacket combo to signify that he was with Team Lizmark. Enfermero had it tough here. If Lizmark looked like a superhero then the recently unmasked challenger looked like a standard criminal. He did nothing particularly villainous, and everything that Lizmark did just looked so much better that it was hard to ever buy Enfermero as in control. It didn't help that it was the tecnico who was pushing things, with Lizmark the first to start with both big throws and body shots (with some HARD looking kicks to the back), and that when Enfermero finally got the advantage it was simply by escaping a Cavernaria and sending Lizmark into the ropes. That was a weak way to shift the momentum, but I liked how Lizmark started off the third fall aggressively in an attempt to get right back into it and ended up paying the price. Curiously, Enfermero followed this up with a plancha to the outside, usually a trademarked Lizmark spot, so Lizmark later ended up doing a standard tope suicida that actually didn't look very good. Despite those complaints, this was still a good match. Dive aside, Lizmark's offense looked great, and he took two tumbles to the outside (one a rough looking bump) that did more to create a sense of danger than Enfermero could. Enfermero was a quietly solid worker who remained good well into his forties, and here he contributed some excellent selling and a cool backdrop bump where he flew over the top rope and took the bump against the apron. There wasn't much in the way of ingenuity or shooting for the stars, but at the end of the match Lizmark looked like a top technical wrestler, which was the main idea they were going for. This is listed as Lizmark's first defense of the belt, but apparently he was a bit busier than that--Alfonso Morales said this was his sixth defense, with prior ones coming against Fiera and Supremo I. March 6 1992 Lizmark/Salomon Grundy/Aaron Grundy vs Satanico/Pirata Morgan/Nitron I'm not going to tell you that this was a good match, and even if I did no one would believe it, but this could have been worse. The Grundy brothers and Nitron got their audience, even if they couldn't provide typical CMLL spots, and the regulars did a good job of reacting to and interacting with the big foreigners. Lizmark slugging with Nitron didn't look unbelievable (well, Nitron's punches looked bad, but I mean in terms of Lizmark going toe to toe with a much larger man), which has to be a credit to both of them, and when matched with the Infernales he brought some quality that was more in tune with what the audience was used to seeing. The third fall really dragged, though. After the match (and a big Lizmark plancha), Nitron had to drag Satanico to his feet, and he immediately crashed back down to the floor. I don't think of Satanico as a master comedian, but that was good.

I could watch Lizmark matches all day. I won't, I'll try to keep it to two per, but to me he's one of the most watchable wrestlers out there. Like all tecnicos he had his spots that he tried to use in all of his matches, but through some combination of likability and effort he never got boring. Well, I'm not too familiar with this millennium Lizmark, so actually that remains to be seen. Most of these will end up being from 1989-1994 simply because that hits the sweet spot of TV+push, but I'll try to pepper in stuff from before and after as well. January 27 1994 Lizmark/Rey Misterio/Rey Misterio Jr. vs Jerry Estrada/La Parka/Espanto Jr. What better way to kick off a look at Lizmark than a match featuring a brilliant performance from... Jerry Estrada? This was in Rey Sr's hometown of Tijuana, and he and Estrada matched up either to set something up for several months down the road or just because they thought it would be interesting here. Either way Estrada was beautiful. He didn't even do anything particularly awful to Misterio, it was just the contrast between how smug he was when he had things under control and how quickly he'd scuttle for safety at the mere hint of danger. I suppose that sounds like fairly generic praise, as to some extent every rudo is like that, but with Estrada it works so perfectly because his whole character is that he's a punk. Even when Rey Sr. was on the apron Estrada managed to be a dick, press slamming Jr. with one hand and turning to Uncle to talk some shit. It all might have gone down as nothing more than some nice character stuff from Estrada, but the two nonprincipals on each team did an excellent job of working a match around the two important figures. Parka and Espanto were perfect goons, and they spent the first fall picking off Jr. and Lizmark every time they jumped in the ring and made a move for Estrada. AAA matches didn't always have that. A lot of times they'd have three separate but equal matchups even when only one of them mattered in the booking. Here Estrada was always the center of the action. It was interesting to watch Espanto Jr. just because how often do you get to see him away from Hijo del Santo? He worked it both on offense and defense, badmouthing Lizmark and later leaping back in shock when Rey Jr. sprang to his feet. Misterio Sr. also was very impressive. It doesn't seem like he gets much discussion as a worker, so I have no clue what his reputation is, but his selling in the crowd was terrific. For the first two falls this was an outstanding Monterrey styled brawl and not even the bottom rope breaking could thwart the rhythm the workers had going, but they lost it with the third fall. The rudos had dominated the first 1.5 falls and the tecnicos made their comeback midway through the second. Instead of going home from there, they went with another rudo controlled fall in the third, which felt like taking the match back to places it had already been. They underscored that point by repeating spots from earlier in the match, and by the end the whole thing had ground to a stop with Lizmark tied to the ringpost and Estrada winning on a truly uncreative fake foul. On the Lizmark front, he was good but clearly the third man on his team. I liked it more when he was pissed off and trying to get to Estrada than when he was on offense, although he did stomp on Parka's foot and fling him into the crowd. Even with the disappointing ending this was still a quite good match overall. February 28 1992 Lizmark/Octagon/Mascara Sagrada vs Pierroth Jr./Emilio Charles Jr./Jerry Estrada Unremarkable match that was above average only because it had enough good workers in it to always be watchable. Like the last one they worked in two stretches of rudo dominance and two tecnico comebacks which made the whole thing seem longer than it was. Pierroth and Mascara Sagrada continued their rivalry and Pierroth even bled. They weren't building to anything, and Sagrada's assault didn't really merit a bladejob, so the blood just felt cheap. Lizmark and Estrada were good together and Emilio looked like he was just as good a matchup for Octagon as Fuerza. The best part of the match was when the rudos were getting their asses kicked and Pierroth gathered his troops on the outside. Apparently his battle plan was "Emilio, have one of them turn his back to us, and then Estrada, you jump him from behind." Not exactly a creative strategem, but it worked.

His match with Kato Kung Lee was bad. Kato had a good cabelleras match with Bestia Salvaje not a year later, so it's not as if Satanico couldn't have been expected to do any better there.

I watched some 1998 CMLL recently that had Fiera and Negro Casas in it. They were fine, but it wasn't the same as 1992. Casas was bug eyed and kind of hamming it up to get the crowd with him, and he was throwing Ringo/Solitario style spinkicks, and Fiera just wasn't a badass anymore. Lots of kicks but no dark underside. When a guy like him turns there should always be the hint that he could snap and unleash the kind of violence on the rudos that he used to deliver as one of them. Point is, Dandy made that switch and didn't lose a thing, and that impresses me more and more with everything I see from other wrestlers. He'd pump his fist trying to get the fans to chant his name and he wouldn't look desperate, he'd look like a man who knew he could control the crowd. How all that stacks up to having to wrestle as a character brought to life entirely by someone else, and all through that present yourself as the best in the land and a representative of your entire country, I don't know. I agree about Dandy's selling, but only rarely. The 1989 hair vs hair match with Emilio Charles is great, but it really did bother me when Emilio slipped a sweet foul past the ref for a two count, and then Dandy got up quickly and suplexed him. The other side of that is I don't know if Santo ever sold as well as Dandy did for something like that one Angel Azteca leglock in their 1990 match.

This wasn't new footage. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/18710-fuerza-guerrera-vs-negro-casas-wwa-1986-or-1987/

I have a soft spot for 1992 AAA, in part because of that brief period when they pushed Angel Azteca as someone important, but realistically that was a bad fit. Rayo Jr, MS-1, and Solar were like that too. I guess the flip side would be Love Machine as a CMLL wrestler for a few months after the split.

Jerry Estrada vs Pirata Morgan from 1993 was not just disappointing, it was seriously bad.

Butterfly suplex Indian deathlock Frog splash (when done by anyone other than Eddy Guerrero)

Atlantis vs Satanico is probably from January 20 1984, the week before the first Rocca vs Cota match. It was at Arena Coliseo.

He was nominated. He just got skunked, along with the guys listed with him.

So that's Mexico sealed and delivered. The only thing left to find out is where Negro Casas ranks overall. 1. Negro Casas 2. Hijo del Santo 3. Dandy 4. Satanico 5. Blue Panther--too high but he's always been rated at this level 6. Atlantis 7. Sangre Chicana 8. La Parka 9. Virus--Virus over Pirata and Villano III I wouldn't have guessed, not complaining though --TOP 100-- 10. Pirata Morgan 11. Perro Aguayo--not at the level of worker of the guys around him 12. Villano III 13. Black Terry 14. Fuerza Guerrera--a little low, kind of surprising 15. Fiera 16. Negro Navarro--another guy I thought would do better 17. Psicosis--feels high, but I have no idea what any of his work is like after about 1999 18. Mocho Cota--either too high or too low 19. MS-1 20. Emilio Charles Jr.--MS-1 and Emilio finishing b2b on the overall list is a success --TOP 200-- 21. Brazo de Plata--Perro Sr. should have finished around here 22. Juventud Guerrera--not sure if he's here for his work in Mexico 23. Solar 24. Dr. Wagner Jr. 25. Mascarita Dorada 26. Super Astro--I expected him to do better 27. Dos Caras --TOP 300-- 28. Ultimo Guerrero 29. Mascarita Sagrada 30. Lizmark 31. Espanto Jr. 32. Perro Aguayo Jr. 33. Art Barr--?? not sure if he counts but most of his case is from Mexico, isn't it? Shouldn't be top 500 34. Bestia Salvaje 35. Cassandro 36. Brazo de Oro 37. Rush 38. Espectrito 39. Angel Azteca 40. Cien Caras --TOP 400-- 41. Octagon--not top 500 material, but I'd take him over Love Machine 42. Canek 43. Jerry Estrada--way too low 44. Mistico 45. Villano IV 46. Ciclon Ramirez--these lower guys have been bundled pretty tightly on the big list, but I wish he'd ended up next to Angel Azteca 47. Cicloncito Ramirez--not bad for someone who wasn't nominated 48. Super Crazy--?? I assume he's here mostly for his US work 49. Dr. Cerebro 50. Trauma II 51. Silver King 52. Trauma I 53. Pequeño Pierroth --TOP 500-- 54. Javier Cruz 54. Felino--you know, I like Felino and Cruz equally too 56. Pimpinela Escarlata 56. Hombre Bala 58. Hector Garza 59. Freelance 60. Gran Apache 61. Faraon--I've always considered Faraon a slightly better Shane McMahon myself 62. Pierroth Jr. 63. Barbaro Cavernario 64. Konnan Big 64. Rayo de Jalisco Jr.--I seriously did think that people loved his twirly dance moves and not that one #100 vote had gone uncounted 64. Demus 3:16 No better than the countless wrestlers who went unnominated: - Chico Che - El Brazo - Javier Llanes - Kung Fu - Rey Hechicero If I missed someone please try not to get too mad.

The Rock ranked above Emilio Charles. HHH ranked above Fiera. Chris Jericho ranked above Sangre Chicana.

Hasn't the top 100 had one European guy? Either people aren't watching the stuff, or they're watching it and deciding that no one great wrestled there, which sounds like the result of a pro-elsewhere bias. I don't even care about the niche that is the continent of Europe, it's just the easiest example I could think of. At the end of the day as long as you're happy with the list that's all that matters. Let's not go crazy in defending it, though. Mainstream US guys clearly did get more chances than other equally talented wrestlers. You sure? All the AJPW sacred cows are still alive, and yet no hand wringing is going on on that front. I wonder why? I didn't say ALL others, and in my post before that I noted that mainstream Japanese was the only type of wrestling to get as much attention as the US did, both mainstream and territorial. But yes I'm sure, the numbers have already been posted.

Hasn't the top 100 had one European guy? Either people aren't watching the stuff, or they're watching it and deciding that no one great wrestled there, which sounds like the result of a pro-elsewhere bias. I don't even care about the niche that is the continent of Europe, it's just the easiest example I could think of. At the end of the day as long as you're happy with the list that's all that matters. Let's not go crazy in defending it, though. Mainstream US guys clearly did get more chances than other equally talented wrestlers.

There was a breakdown of what types of wrestling people considered. U.S. was far, far ahead of anywhere else except "mainstream Japan". There objectively was a bias. Also guys who get talked up as #1 candidates finishing in the thirties isn't much of an argument that there can't have been any kind of bias.

The best part of the Casas vs Panterita program

Panther should have finished behind Atlantis. Hell, Panther should have finished behind Emilio. I'll take a guy who's decent one on one and a big contributor to tags vs a guy who can be great one on one and decent in tags, just because of how infrequent the big one on ones are. I'm not even sure Panther's average singles match star rating would be higher than Emilio's. He had more great matches (and even on that front I like him less than most), but he also had more duds. I don't think he was overrated on the mat, though. It's every other aspect of his game that doesn't hold up.

Why did you put him above Hijo del Santo? That seems like the easiest comparison and I don't see how you get Atlantis there. Not being dismissive (although I do disagree), I genuinely would like to hear why. The only point in your post I disagree with actually is about the matches with Blue Panther. I'd have them closer to ****, not up there with the best in history. The last time I watched the 1991 match I was surprised by how shoddy some of the third fall work was.

Atlantis still hasn't shown up. Mark me down for "pleasantly surprised." Even if he pops today he'll still have done better than I expected.

The Satanico match from 1989 was mano a mano. If it was an apuestas match they would have both lost their hair. His feud with La Fiera in 1993 is disappointing in my opinion but I'm not a big fan of tecnico Fiera so that might not be on Chicana. The hair vs hair match is on alexoblivion's Dailymotion page if you haven't seen it.

Is the footage explosion people finding out about certain matches or more matches getting uploaded to Youtube? I always assumed that the list of top Dandy matches is about the same as it was in 2006, with most new additions being buildup matches and stuff like that. Whereas with someone like La Fiera I can't imagine what he was getting praised for back then.

Not nominated. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28835-rayo-de-jalisco-jr/

Excuse me Perro Aguayo is a great wrestler and more great than La Fiera in my opinion what's with the hate. Following is a list of things that Perro Aguayo Sr. did better than La Fiera: ...bleed? Older Perro especially is so cheesy to me. For lucha heavyweights I'd probably rank Aguayo behind Chicana, Dos Caras, Cien Caras, and even Rayo Jr.

1. Unless I missed them, Fiera finished beneath Perro Sr. and Rayo Jr. He deserved better. 2. Even more tragic, the picture chosen to represent him was not the legendary shot of him threatening to assault Kinnikuman.

What exactly were you expecting to happen? The top 100's gonna be like that too, with Lawler, Tanahashi and I'm guessing at least one of Undertaker/Hogan. Either you sort it out beforehand so that the only people voting are those with similar opinions, or you end up with a final list that's all over the place. If the top 100 didn't have Lawler then it would be a pretty shitty top 100. My point was that I don't expect a lot of lists to have three or all four of those guys but all of them finishing in the top hundred wouldn't surprise me. I don't envision a lot of overlap between fans of each of those guys. The top 100 probably isn't going to resemble any one person's list.