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I watched some 1998 CMLL recently that had Fiera and Negro Casas in it. They were fine, but it wasn't the same as 1992. Casas was bug eyed and kind of hamming it up to get the crowd with him, and he was throwing Ringo/Solitario style spinkicks, and Fiera just wasn't a badass anymore. Lots of kicks but no dark underside. When a guy like him turns there should always be the hint that he could snap and unleash the kind of violence on the rudos that he used to deliver as one of them. Point is, Dandy made that switch and didn't lose a thing, and that impresses me more and more with everything I see from other wrestlers. He'd pump his fist trying to get the fans to chant his name and he wouldn't look desperate, he'd look like a man who knew he could control the crowd. How all that stacks up to having to wrestle as a character brought to life entirely by someone else, and all through that present yourself as the best in the land and a representative of your entire country, I don't know. I agree about Dandy's selling, but only rarely. The 1989 hair vs hair match with Emilio Charles is great, but it really did bother me when Emilio slipped a sweet foul past the ref for a two count, and then Dandy got up quickly and suplexed him. The other side of that is I don't know if Santo ever sold as well as Dandy did for something like that one Angel Azteca leglock in their 1990 match.

This wasn't new footage. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/18710-fuerza-guerrera-vs-negro-casas-wwa-1986-or-1987/

I have a soft spot for 1992 AAA, in part because of that brief period when they pushed Angel Azteca as someone important, but realistically that was a bad fit. Rayo Jr, MS-1, and Solar were like that too. I guess the flip side would be Love Machine as a CMLL wrestler for a few months after the split.

Jerry Estrada vs Pirata Morgan from 1993 was not just disappointing, it was seriously bad.

Butterfly suplex Indian deathlock Frog splash (when done by anyone other than Eddy Guerrero)

Atlantis vs Satanico is probably from January 20 1984, the week before the first Rocca vs Cota match. It was at Arena Coliseo.

He was nominated. He just got skunked, along with the guys listed with him.

So that's Mexico sealed and delivered. The only thing left to find out is where Negro Casas ranks overall. 1. Negro Casas 2. Hijo del Santo 3. Dandy 4. Satanico 5. Blue Panther--too high but he's always been rated at this level 6. Atlantis 7. Sangre Chicana 8. La Parka 9. Virus--Virus over Pirata and Villano III I wouldn't have guessed, not complaining though --TOP 100-- 10. Pirata Morgan 11. Perro Aguayo--not at the level of worker of the guys around him 12. Villano III 13. Black Terry 14. Fuerza Guerrera--a little low, kind of surprising 15. Fiera 16. Negro Navarro--another guy I thought would do better 17. Psicosis--feels high, but I have no idea what any of his work is like after about 1999 18. Mocho Cota--either too high or too low 19. MS-1 20. Emilio Charles Jr.--MS-1 and Emilio finishing b2b on the overall list is a success --TOP 200-- 21. Brazo de Plata--Perro Sr. should have finished around here 22. Juventud Guerrera--not sure if he's here for his work in Mexico 23. Solar 24. Dr. Wagner Jr. 25. Mascarita Dorada 26. Super Astro--I expected him to do better 27. Dos Caras --TOP 300-- 28. Ultimo Guerrero 29. Mascarita Sagrada 30. Lizmark 31. Espanto Jr. 32. Perro Aguayo Jr. 33. Art Barr--?? not sure if he counts but most of his case is from Mexico, isn't it? Shouldn't be top 500 34. Bestia Salvaje 35. Cassandro 36. Brazo de Oro 37. Rush 38. Espectrito 39. Angel Azteca 40. Cien Caras --TOP 400-- 41. Octagon--not top 500 material, but I'd take him over Love Machine 42. Canek 43. Jerry Estrada--way too low 44. Mistico 45. Villano IV 46. Ciclon Ramirez--these lower guys have been bundled pretty tightly on the big list, but I wish he'd ended up next to Angel Azteca 47. Cicloncito Ramirez--not bad for someone who wasn't nominated 48. Super Crazy--?? I assume he's here mostly for his US work 49. Dr. Cerebro 50. Trauma II 51. Silver King 52. Trauma I 53. Pequeño Pierroth --TOP 500-- 54. Javier Cruz 54. Felino--you know, I like Felino and Cruz equally too 56. Pimpinela Escarlata 56. Hombre Bala 58. Hector Garza 59. Freelance 60. Gran Apache 61. Faraon--I've always considered Faraon a slightly better Shane McMahon myself 62. Pierroth Jr. 63. Barbaro Cavernario 64. Konnan Big 64. Rayo de Jalisco Jr.--I seriously did think that people loved his twirly dance moves and not that one #100 vote had gone uncounted 64. Demus 3:16 No better than the countless wrestlers who went unnominated: - Chico Che - El Brazo - Javier Llanes - Kung Fu - Rey Hechicero If I missed someone please try not to get too mad.

The Rock ranked above Emilio Charles. HHH ranked above Fiera. Chris Jericho ranked above Sangre Chicana.

Hasn't the top 100 had one European guy? Either people aren't watching the stuff, or they're watching it and deciding that no one great wrestled there, which sounds like the result of a pro-elsewhere bias. I don't even care about the niche that is the continent of Europe, it's just the easiest example I could think of. At the end of the day as long as you're happy with the list that's all that matters. Let's not go crazy in defending it, though. Mainstream US guys clearly did get more chances than other equally talented wrestlers. You sure? All the AJPW sacred cows are still alive, and yet no hand wringing is going on on that front. I wonder why? I didn't say ALL others, and in my post before that I noted that mainstream Japanese was the only type of wrestling to get as much attention as the US did, both mainstream and territorial. But yes I'm sure, the numbers have already been posted.

Hasn't the top 100 had one European guy? Either people aren't watching the stuff, or they're watching it and deciding that no one great wrestled there, which sounds like the result of a pro-elsewhere bias. I don't even care about the niche that is the continent of Europe, it's just the easiest example I could think of. At the end of the day as long as you're happy with the list that's all that matters. Let's not go crazy in defending it, though. Mainstream US guys clearly did get more chances than other equally talented wrestlers.

There was a breakdown of what types of wrestling people considered. U.S. was far, far ahead of anywhere else except "mainstream Japan". There objectively was a bias. Also guys who get talked up as #1 candidates finishing in the thirties isn't much of an argument that there can't have been any kind of bias.

The best part of the Casas vs Panterita program

Panther should have finished behind Atlantis. Hell, Panther should have finished behind Emilio. I'll take a guy who's decent one on one and a big contributor to tags vs a guy who can be great one on one and decent in tags, just because of how infrequent the big one on ones are. I'm not even sure Panther's average singles match star rating would be higher than Emilio's. He had more great matches (and even on that front I like him less than most), but he also had more duds. I don't think he was overrated on the mat, though. It's every other aspect of his game that doesn't hold up.

Why did you put him above Hijo del Santo? That seems like the easiest comparison and I don't see how you get Atlantis there. Not being dismissive (although I do disagree), I genuinely would like to hear why. The only point in your post I disagree with actually is about the matches with Blue Panther. I'd have them closer to ****, not up there with the best in history. The last time I watched the 1991 match I was surprised by how shoddy some of the third fall work was.

Atlantis still hasn't shown up. Mark me down for "pleasantly surprised." Even if he pops today he'll still have done better than I expected.

The Satanico match from 1989 was mano a mano. If it was an apuestas match they would have both lost their hair. His feud with La Fiera in 1993 is disappointing in my opinion but I'm not a big fan of tecnico Fiera so that might not be on Chicana. The hair vs hair match is on alexoblivion's Dailymotion page if you haven't seen it.

Is the footage explosion people finding out about certain matches or more matches getting uploaded to Youtube? I always assumed that the list of top Dandy matches is about the same as it was in 2006, with most new additions being buildup matches and stuff like that. Whereas with someone like La Fiera I can't imagine what he was getting praised for back then.

Not nominated. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28835-rayo-de-jalisco-jr/

Excuse me Perro Aguayo is a great wrestler and more great than La Fiera in my opinion what's with the hate. Following is a list of things that Perro Aguayo Sr. did better than La Fiera: ...bleed? Older Perro especially is so cheesy to me. For lucha heavyweights I'd probably rank Aguayo behind Chicana, Dos Caras, Cien Caras, and even Rayo Jr.

1. Unless I missed them, Fiera finished beneath Perro Sr. and Rayo Jr. He deserved better. 2. Even more tragic, the picture chosen to represent him was not the legendary shot of him threatening to assault Kinnikuman.

What exactly were you expecting to happen? The top 100's gonna be like that too, with Lawler, Tanahashi and I'm guessing at least one of Undertaker/Hogan. Either you sort it out beforehand so that the only people voting are those with similar opinions, or you end up with a final list that's all over the place. If the top 100 didn't have Lawler then it would be a pretty shitty top 100. My point was that I don't expect a lot of lists to have three or all four of those guys but all of them finishing in the top hundred wouldn't surprise me. I don't envision a lot of overlap between fans of each of those guys. The top 100 probably isn't going to resemble any one person's list.

What exactly were you expecting to happen? The top 100's gonna be like that too, with Lawler, Tanahashi and I'm guessing at least one of Undertaker/Hogan. Either you sort it out beforehand so that the only people voting are those with similar opinions, or you end up with a final list that's all over the place. I sort of wish I'd nominated a bunch of random, hopeless Mexican guys just for the joy of seeing them pop up randomly, but lucha placements have been so predictable thus far that there wouldn't have been a point, they'd probably just have plopped out at the bottom. Jerry Estrada went a bit low, Octagon a bit high, but even that was just one vote. Maybe Negro Navarro finishing above Solar, just because Solar has better stuff from before he broke off stylistically. Mocho Cota's going to do well for himself but it was clear going in that would happen.

Fairly sure that's a picture of El Brazo.

I don't think that stylistic differences have all that much to do with specific holds used. Headlocks and hammerlocks are fairly common in lucha libre, and I've seen all of the rest used multiple times with the exception of the sleeper.