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This is austin and it isn't really that close to me. HBK is obviously insanely overrated in the WWE's imagination, and that probably earns him the ire of many internet warriors (including myself). His return run was so spotty to me. The taker matches were good, but not the best matches in Mania history. The Flair retirement match was solid for what it was, but I tip my hat to a clearly past his expiration date Flair more in that one. I kind of hate the HHH series. Their HIAC match is unwatchable to me. The Cena stuff was quite good. His prime run was good, but I rewatched the Vader Summerslam match and the Razor ladder match in the past month or so. Both matches are filled with spots that seem very very contrived to me. He wasn’t as fluid moving into the big dramatic spots as I remember and it took a lot away from what he was trying to do. Finally, I see everything for HBK after his tag run being booked pretty favorably for him. He wasn’t given a lot of crap to work with so his in ring work gets a lot more chance to shine through. That all said, HBK is very good. He isn’t a hack by any means. He has very good runs and did bring a lot of excitement to matches. Just doing his HBK thing brings another level of energy to many matches, energy that can’t really be manufactured. Austin on the other hand gets a lot of points for getting more out of less. He was even putting on good matches well after he had to change his style completely going into his main run as lead man. The Austin/Hart feud is just tops. He had great in ring runs in both major companies and overcame some questionable booking placement. The only two major marks against Austin are the era he wrestled in and his own self-regulation. I don’t really LOVE the Attitude era stuff. He was king of the world at a time when overbooked brawls were a bit too common. Austin still managed to have shining matches in all that though. He also limited himself a lot from what I understand, not taking matches or sitting out when he didn’t think he could perform up to his own expectations. That is his decision, but Austin vs Hulk at Mania for example might have been a real feather in his cap if he were able to help carry Hogan to a good match, a memorable punctuation near the end of his career rather than the Hall debacle.

The company resigning to that fact and Cena actively engaging it in his promos are not mutually exclusive. Cena has been pretty good at explicitly speaking to both audiences simultaniously, especially over the past 3 years or so. It is a lot easier for him to do with opponents like Punk, Dragon, and Owens of course, but I think he has generally been pretty good at prodding half the audience and popping the other with the same promo and doing it with prett clear intent.

Perfectly said. I just watched that last week and fell in love with it all over. Both guys are bumping all over the place really. It is such a fun brawl among two bulls.

Overselling or not selling. I don't even have a narrow window. When I say overselling I am talking about hbk in the Bad Blood 2004 HIAC match. When I talk about not selling I mean completely forgetting to lay down for any period of time.

Maybe I was just disspointed with the Bob stuff next to my memories of it. The first time I watched it I text a friend to tell him to watch it and the second time it just felt underwealmed. I haven't seen the 2/16/81 MSG match so I will need to track that down. Its just a strange paring to me. I feel like I could watch the same match between these two 5 times and have 5 different opinions on it. I am really looking forward to finding a moment to watch this Colon stuff. Bottom line is, Hansen is an all time great.

What is wrong with the WWE (in no particular order). I can only come up with 40 this morning and some of this is pretty nitpicky. Maybe I will think of more later. Booking that feels like it is only planned for the next three – four weeks. Booking themselves into a corner (ex. Reigns vs Wyatt, neither should lose right now Weak looking champion No freedom for wrestlers/overly contrived scripting (probably my number 1) Too much TV time making for too much pointless wrestling and an overall disinterest in making everything meaningful Inept booking (lately) of the hottest commodity in wrestling (brock) Racism Sexism Branding (superstars and divas) Company Ego (ex. Sting being brought in just to lose to HHH) Overemphasis on revising history JBL’s getting sort of tired in his role (I liked him at first) Their enthusiastic love for HBK and insistence on calling him the best ever. Lack of new and creative storylines with nuance. We kind of get the same recycled stuff and they depend on the performers to save it Insistence on beating the audience over the head with what they are trying to do/leaving nothing open for interpretation and limiting their own flexibility. HHH’s periodic lectures to the internet. Tough Enough… all of it. Making the women’s division second to a reality show (they are MAYBE coming out of this, but I’ll believe it when I see SUSTAINED attention to fixing it. Continued reliance on stars of the past and not enough energy put into making stars for the future. Overly produced shows that still somehow miss action on TV. No squash matches No strategic use of DQs and count outs Too many people killing each other’s finishers WWE networks interface (I don’t want to scroll through every pre and post show interview to browse the wm section. An Inconsistent (at best) tag team division, no sustained effort to make the tag titles matter The hideousness of those tag team titles, aesthetically Stardust Not enough managers who can help build matches and feuds as well as add nuance to the stories. Use of the Hall of Fame as a political and history making tool Kane Not capitalizing more on Big Show’s most entertaining attribute being that he knows people want him to retire and he doesn’t care. The lack of explanation as to weather the Bellas are heels or faces and why they are back together (I may have missed this on total divas or something since I don’t watch)/a general lack of explanation for these sorts of things. Too many gimmick ppvs Too many gimmick matches (especially ladder matches) Too much talk of and attempts to create contrived “wrestlemania moments” Kind of tired of the company’s current aesthetic. It seems time for a small change. WWE.com… just most of it. No real distinction in levels of the roster/lines a bit too blurry Their refusal to use Sandow in any substantial way. Too many sort of tired characters that kind of wander aimlessly until they book themselves into a corner (Orton comes to mind right away)

A year ago I would have said Rock, hands down, but now I would probably go Cena. I always liked Cena in the ring, but really gained a lot more respect for him in the past year, rewatching some of his classic matches and seeing him be probably the most interesting in-ring performer in WWE week after week in the middle of the card. At the same time I have been really underwhealmed by what I have rewatched of the Rock. His matches don't hold up to me, even the ones that get high praise like the Austin WM matches. He has his moments and probably did walk away just as he was hitting his stride in the ring. I also think the gap in talking is a little more narrow than people let on. Cena is really smart about his position in wrestling and speaks in layers a lot. I think his promos (after the rapping crap) hold up really well and the Rock just makes me roll my eyes now that I am 31 and not 15.

This made my night. 100% made it. Laughed out loud in my living room on a wrestling message board. My wife was very impressed. Anyway, I don't people got upset about the word fake, it just Dana White's general insistance on being a dick hole to everyone all the time. There is no real confusion about what wrestling is, but White just has to be a jerk about it. That said, yelling at Dana White about being a douchebag on the internet is like yelling at dog for loving you. It is in his soul.

I more or less agree with everything here, but would probably even put him above Styles when he was on his hot ROH run. Styles had the name recognition, but I think people on the boards I was lurking or posting on where much more positive about London's in ring work at the time. Low ki and joe were probably in their own league because they felt so new and fresh and Dragon was right there with them by being Dragon. London stood out a lot and really inspired loyalty from the indie crowds and that was almost ALL in ring work, not promos or charisma. In short, I loved his ROH work, felt constantly underwealmed by his WWE work (but that probably isn't his fault), and like him post-wwe in flashes. Some of the spotty stuff he did in PWG stands out as fun stuff you can show non-fans and I think that honeslty counts for something when it is done well.

Piper understood good vs evil and he understood how to make wrestling fun and intersting. What he lacked in the ring he made up for with intensity and intelligence. I always had a lot of time for piper. RIP

I fell into a Stan Hansen hole today, popped in his highspots DVD and lloked up a few matches on line. I watched his matches vs Backlund (9/30/80 NJPW and 4/6/81 WWF) and came away a little dissapointed. i think I liked them both better on the first watch and they didn't live up to my memory. I still had them both at ***3/4 and ***1/2, respectively. But I came away more dissapointed with Backlund than Hansen. The matches were shining when Hansen had the pace. In the NJPW match Backlund just sort of stood in a few submission holds, not cranking it in. In the MSG match Backlund had way too much control early and it never felt like Hansen was a threat to win. Both matches did have some great moments though, some great sequences and spots that showed off the power and brutality of Hansen and the strength and technique of Backlund, which is honestly the real story of both matches.

Piper always confused me. He showed flashes in matches, but would never string anything together for very long. I always thought his sort of controled chaos style would have served him well in Japan. He could be stiff, take shots, and his pacing and spacing reminded me more of crazy Brawles from NJPW and All Japan in the early 80s, that real fight chaos. As much as I really want to like his work I always feel like my mind wants to rate him on fantasy booking and a few matches and I ignore the vast majority of his in ring career.

I went on a starcade kick recently, watch Tully/Magnum, Vader/Flair, and Piper/Valentine. Been wanting to rewatch El Samurai vs Koji Kanemoto so that is probably next.

Good lord I am bad at stuff... fixed, thanks

On top of being a general bag of cocks for knowingly (I don't buy his excuse) being involved in illegal hunts, he is a dentist. A DENTIST! He is an old rich white guy who does things he knows he isn't allowed to do because he wants to, buys the privelege of doing these things, makes his money from an occupation that no one likes, and then when he is caught he says "I didn't know I couldn't do that". It is this kind of layering and depth that the WWE is missing right now in its development of on screen personas.

"JBL/Eddie from Judgement Day 2004 is a top 20 WWE match of all time for me. JBL isn't even close to making my list." -stompersspc I am glad you said this. I think that match is absolutely tops and I don't really see it getting the praise it deserves often. I think Eddie bleeding buckets and doing his little shimmy near the end of the match is one of the most memorable visuals in wrestling history. It is one of those moments when I went beyond marking out to just staring at my TV in awe. Note: something went wrong with my quote so I improvised.

Kanemoto vs. El Samurai from the 1997 BOSJ Final is one of my personal favorites. His heel work is so amazing in that match, really pushing how much punishment El Samurai can take in a match. One match does not an all time great make, but I think that match really shows what a game Kanemoto looks like and its awesome.

This makes some sense. I often assume that the WWE books around history to make sure they have control over what is considered greatness. It is clearly what they did when Orton became the youngest champ. It is clearly what they are doing with Nikki Bella right now. That said, Vince and HHH love them some Flair. Even if Vince's relationship with Flair has been rocky, I have always heard he is a pretty big mark for Flair. If any non-WWE made guy's legacy can be left alone, it is Flair's. On the other hand, having Steen nab the U.S. Title for a month and having Cena win it back would be pretty classic WWE booking and would give Cena an extra title with very few people noticing. In some way's Cena's title run oddly feels refreshing, a long and consistent way to rebuild a belt (odd, because this isn't really an E belt and they are not really building it in an E way). In short, I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case. I wouldn't be surprised if just a few people are thinking this way under the radar. I also wouldn't be surprised if they really are just focusing on giving Cena a slightly new position in the company letting him build the mid card belts, which was probably their plan for the IC belt before it became an injury curse.

The "fall" of Roman is a good thing though. I think he is far more interesting developing his character in the mid card, adding layers to his persona and honing his craft a bit more. I was pretty bored with him on his way to Wrestlemania, but that was less to do with him being "not ready" and more to do with me just being bored by the superman shtick. Wyatt helps make everyone better around him and some good feuds before a re-elevation would make his next run at the title a lot more compelling.

I am obviously not going to be participating in this, but I think Bryan is such an intersting case. Full disclosure, Dragon is probably my favorite wrestler every, one of the top two easy. I was talking with a buddy of mine the other day and we couldn't identify a sure fire 5 star match for him (I may personally rate one or two up there), but we could rattle of a bunch of 4.25 and 4.5 and 4.75. He was just so consistantly good for some time, regarldess of opponenet, time given, circumstance, room, audience, etc. The guy just gets the most out of everything and there are so few that can say that. He is just so consistant and does all the little stuff so right and makes an entire roster better. He would most certainly be in my top 10 and probably find a way into my top 5, even if I was trying to be somewhat "objective" about my list.

I wouldn't find Rose underwhealming. I would actually be kind of excited to see this guy get a fresh start and something he could maybe work with.

Be still my beating heart... Necro on WWE TV would blow my mind and make the deepest darkest parts of my dork self happy. Also, it would fullfill the Age of The Fall takeover, every member of the group finally employed by the WWE. They should at least hire necro for the ring crew or something.

My gut tells me that Dragon is done.... kind of. I see a short run or a carefully constructed handful of matches down the road a ways, even if it is in ROH. I can't see him not ever wrestling again. Ultimately, Dragon is going to wind up being a WWE hall of famer on the back of him being a tragic wrestling story, but one that people can ultimately feel good about. He is a good guy, clean as a whistle. His career wasn't cut short by drugs or alcohol, but by hard work and dedication. That, on top of his talent and knowledge, make him a very valuable asset to the wwe, even if he never steps foot in the ring again. With any luck it will help inspire a different conversation about the pressures put on wrestlers and the physical sacrifices they make.

Even though there is a clear distinction between what fans on a board like this thing about wrestling and what vince wants to do with a group, I don't thinkt he WWE should (or will) stick to the big giant redneck aesthetic. The Wyatt Family gimmick is based on redneck horror stereotypes/genres. There are a bunch of different manifestations of that and I see them adding something new/different to the mix. Adding giants will only get them so far and will quickly creat more dead ends than openings. They should add a smaller guy who can pull off crazy really well. There are plenty of underwhealming choices that fit that desription too.

Oh god, I am wishing for Rowan's return just THINKING of the possibility of Corbin coming up. I like Bo pretty well, but a lot of people REALLY aren't sold on him and when it comes to wrestling mysteries, he doesn't exactly inspire excitement. Bo coming under the spell of Bray while waxing philosophical (though completely emptily) about positivity and BOlieving would be a good transition to him being sort of a sporadic and crazy member of the family. That was the thing that was missing. They needed more diversity in their crazy and Bo could bring that to the table. That all said, it wouldn’t send shockwaves through the WWE or anything. Oh shit… what if it is R Truth… please let it be R-Truth.