The Russian Daydream

I'd echo this 100%.

This would be my pick too, for the reasons stated above and also because of the transitions and evolutions that wrestling went through during the decade, in America, Japan and Europe. It is fascinating to look back on.

Interesting to hear the discussion of the people Flair didn't like. What was his beef with Bam Bam Bigelow? I know Bigelow managed to rub quite a few people up the wrong way, but is there a specific incident with Flair? And what about Rude? Most guys seem to have a high opinion of him. I remember Flair's dislike for him really came across in that really long shoot interview he did when he left the WWE a few years back. In that he mentioned that Rude was the only man who he got in the ring with who was "impaired". It seemed a weird thing to say and rather difficult to believe given some of the people Flair worked with over the years.

These are a fun, quick listen. Bobby Eaton was never in the York Foundation though, was he? It was just Taylor, Rich and Morton. Or am I misremembering?

This wasn't a bad match on the whole and Anderson, Pillman and Austin particularly put in really good individual performances. The problem was that the match just went far too long. There was probably a pretty fun and exciting 15 minute match lurking in there somewhere.

This is a really good point.

Definitely should. I love the Akiyama match in particular. I've always favoured the All Japan / NOAH styles over New Japan though.

I think this is a good point, and it applies to so many things in 2017 that we have much more immediate access to than we did 25 years ago. Music, TV, Films and so on.

I think only one person said "Lucha sucks" (and I think that was said just to push a button rather than what he believed). Mostly it was person B acknowledging that there are many classic Lucha matches, but on the whole it doesn't resonate in a way that makes the want to follow it thoroughly. Person B doesn't think it is his duty to do this if he doesn't want to as watching wrestling is something he does for his own personal enjoyment.

Absolutely this. There is so much wrestling out there that I want to watch because I know I'll enjoy it but can't find the time. I'm not going to be spending the time I do have watching something I don't like much in the vein hope it'll eventually get easier. Shit, people really only watch the art they like and never try to expand into new areas?I also like to read. If I read a book but don't really like it, I don't usually head straight to the library to withdraw all of that author's work. This is the same thing. I have watched Lucha and do watch matches that are recommended highly and even the odd full show. I just prefer other things. I think I'm not alone.

Absolutely this. There is so much wrestling out there that I want to watch because I know I'll enjoy it but can't find the time. I'm not going to be spending the time I do have watching something I don't like much in the vein hope it'll eventually get easier.

Listened to more of this today and a few thoughts: Regarding Paul Roma and the Horsemen, I'm guessing they wanted someone not on the roster currently to be in that position or else surely they'd never have done what they did. In that case, I believe the best person they could have gotten would have been Stan Lane. He had a Horseman vibe about him and the story about him being trained by Flair gives him a connection. He was also just finishing up with Smokey Mountain at this time being fed up with too little money and too many blade-jobs so I believe so could have been enticed. Regarding Dory vs Bockwinkel; the first time I watched this years back I really didn't like it much. I watched it again a few months back however and thought it was wonderful. The difference was that in the meantime I'd watched a good bit of 70s and 80s All Japan which featured both guys. It definitely helps to be 'tuned into' the style going in. Parv's rating was absolutely fair and on the money.

In terms of the biggest stage in US wrestling, Mexican wrestling have generally been presented more prominently than Japanese. Looking at Rey Mysterio Jr first in WCW then in the WWE. No Japanese wrestler has been pushed to the level that Rey was (or indeed the level Mil Mascaras was in previous eras). It could be argued that, generally, Japanese wrestlers have been presented much more negatively and with less respect for their culture over the years than Mexicans have. Japanese wrestlers often appeared as evil ninjas or sinister salt throwers. Until Vince Russo started putting piñatas up poles, Lucha guys appeared roughly as they would in their homeland. There are a lot of examples of prejudices and bigotry to be found in wrestling but I really don't think the higher profile of Puro compared with Lucha among hardcore fans is one of them.

You are also right about this. Part of the fun of being a fan is watching new stuff. My point was nobody should feel that there's something wrong with preferring to spend time watching one thing over another. As an example, a few months ago, I watched, over a few weeks, WrestleMania 9, SMW Bluegrass Brawl, AAA TripleMania 1, NJPW Dontaku, FMW Kawasaki Stadium and WCW Slamboree. All these shows took place over about a month in Spring 93 and it was really interesting to watch and contrast what was going on in the business at the time. The point is, there was a huge variety there but of all those shows, it was the AAA one which I just couldn't get into - and that's happened with Lucha for me before. Bits of the show were fun for sure, but on the whole I just feel it's not really for me. For that reason I don't think I should feel guilty for not watching a lot of it.

It comes down to this. I've tried watching Lucha, and while I appreciate some of the matches, as an overall 'thing' I just don't enjoy it on the way I do other things. I don't think as fans we have a duty to watch particular styles or promotions if we prefer other things. That's not an attack on Lucha fans though. We're allowed to like different things and that doesn't make anyone a better or worse fan. We're just human. If you like something and think it's great, that's fine but don't take it personally that not everyone does.

The same applies to european wrestling. European wrestling never received any of the awards you are talking about there. I also just looked over the last 2 pages of the ***** / **** 3/4 matches thread and there were only 2 or 3 matches from europe there compared to almost everyone having matches from mexico in their list. In fact, lucha is much better represented than WoS or CWA. On the 90s yearbooks, there were only a handful of european matches but dozens of mexican ones. Actually there is near zero discussion on 90s european wrestling. Jim Breaks, probably the most beloved WoS worker, didn't even make the Top 50 in the GWE, while the two top rated brit guys all worked extensively in the US and japan. OJ has written a lot about it on this site but there's not much more discussion than that compared to the endless talking about lucha. Otto Wanz vs. Vader is almost never mentioned as one of the best feuds of the 80s. Wanz and many other deserving euro workers still are' in the WON Hall of Fame. Could it be? Are people not giving european wresting a fair shake? Is there something going on? Do I need to ignore people who praise 90s AJPW and El Dandy but don't even know the likes of Mile Zrno or Alan Kilby? Did the british not import enough US cultural hegemony? Is Meltz a US imperialist? Or could it be that people largely just don't like it/don't feel inspired to get really into it? I think it's as simple as that most people in these circles got into wrestling through North American wrestling. Japanese wrestling is really very similar from an in ring standpoint. The match structure, the moves and holds used and even a lot of the wrestlers themselves (particularly in the 89s and 90s) are familiar to a North American wrestling fan. It's just so much more accessible. The Lucha and European styles are different beasts entirely. Someone used to US wrestling has to pretty much 'forget' how wrestling works when watching Lucha or WoS/CWA. Personally, I watched British wrestling first as a child before being exposed to WWF/WCW later on. I think it's easier to go that way than the other direction. On the other hand, I've always found Lucha more difficult. I've watched a fair few highly regarded matches but just can't get into it at a deeper level. I guess it's like if you speak Swedish, you can have good shot at understanding things in Norway or Denmark but if you went to China you'd have to start from the beginning. It's all just speaking, listening and reading but some languages are easier to flit between than others.

Just listening through this and got to the bit regarding Vader vs Cactus. Although Meltzer wasn't there, he was right that the version of the first match which aired on TV really didn't capture the impact of what actually happened. There was another version of the match with the close ups of the blows and blood left in on one of Mick's DVDs and it really has a lot more oomph when watching it. When you do the TV episode you really should track that version down.

I'd love to listen to a historical Japanese wrestling podcast covering everything from the 50s to the 2000s. I just feel like there must be so much to discuss and that there's so much I could learn from listening. There's definitely a gap in the market.

This was a good listen. Thanks as always. It was particularly interesting to hear the discussion about the Observer Hall of Fame. Congratulations to Chad and the others who have been given ballots. I really love all three Sting vs Vader matches and alternate on which I like better. I don't suppose ranking them really matters though, there's so little between them in terms of quality, even though all three are so different. Max Payne is a weird one. He had a legit amateur background and trained in the New Japan dojo at the same time as Benoit but never really showed a lot of evidence of either. Given his background, he should have become a Bam Bam Bigelow / Vader / Brock Lesnar style legit big man but he never put the pieces together. He had been wrestling for about five years when this match took place so there really are no excuses. He should have been a lot better than he was. You are both right on Paul Orndorff. He was awesome throughout most of 93 and had flashes of brilliance as late as 95. It's a shame because he gets credited with having a great run with Hogan in the 80s but this section of his career is largely forgotten, yet it contains some of his best work. I would have been interested to hear what you guys thought of Cactus Jack here. I was a big fan of his at the time and throughout the remainder of his career, but looking back, I'd point to this match as where he started to go just a bit too far. He'd always done silly bumps, but in this match, he took a few that really made me wince. The splat when he hits the floor on the middle-rope sunset flip to the concrete is a sound that I always remember, and the way his back bends on that suplex on the guard-rail looks really nasty. I agree with your match rating. It was superb, but do you think it would have been inferior if Cactus had not taken quite so many chances? It's interesting to note that he was really on a crusade to get over at the expense of his health at this time as it was only a few weeks later when he let Vader smash his face in and power bomb him on the concrete, which led to the silly 'Lost in Cleveland' stuff. It was really interesting to hear that conversation at the end about upcoming good matches too. I was really surprised that the two of you have really different memories of the Bulldog vs Regal match from Halloween Havoc. It's been a good seven years since I saw it but I remember really loving it. I thought at the time that it is a good template of what British wrestling should have evolved into; sort of an World of Sport influenced American style, rather than the American-indie-in-a-tiny-ring that it predominantly became. I will have to watch it again and see how I like it now, before you guys talk about it in a few months. I will be interested to hear if Parv still likes it or what Chad didn't like. Keep up the good work guys.

This is obviously one of those matches which really polarise people. To me it was nearly a masterpiece. The selling, the drama and the visual effect of this really draws me in. I was loving every minute of this. The escalating sirens were a clever touch too which really built the tension at the end. As for the ring announcer, I watched the whole show and hated him throughout. In this crazy setting though, I thought his voice added to the madness and was actually quite a good fit. My only complaint about the match was that I thought a single DDT felt a bit weak to put Terry Funk down for the three-count. Te post match stuff redeemed it very quickly though so I didn't dwell on it for long. Other than the actual pinfall, I thought this was worked perfectly given what it was aiming to be. I'm sort of struggling how high I can go with this without feeling silly. I know as an athletic contest it's not a Misawa vs Kobashi or a Flair vs Steamboat. It also doesn't have the feeling of hate you get from a Tully vs Magnum or in The Last Battle of Atlanta. It was just so good though. I'm saying ****1/2 but want to give it more, but just can't.

I liked Johnny Smith. He never had the look of a star, but I'd say he was better than competent in All Japan, though I've not seen more than a match or two each in WoS and Stampede. I am curious about his time in ECW though. He showed up a few times, including a really strong showing against Louis Spicolli at Dr Is In in 1996, got a really good reception from the fans and then never really came back. I guess he was making good money with Baba at the time and ECW wasn't worth his trouble. Is there any more to it?

I have really mixed feelings about this match. It was fun at times and it was really interesting to see these guys 'before they were famous', however I just cannot quite bring myself to really like the match. At the beginning, when Sabu started working the leg, I thought this might be something, but it was completely forgotten. Then Kid got busted open, and then Sabu never went after the cut and Kid never sold the blood loss at all, so what was the point? And then it got all a bit spotty through the second half. The highlight for me was the fat guy in the front row who got smashed by dives twice in about 30 seconds. I've seen better from Sabu and to say this is Kid's second best match behind the Bret match is utter madness. As two up-and-coming guys wanting to show off a highlight reel of what they did a good job. As a wrestling match, I felt it was lacking. That's not to say I didn't enjoy watching it though.

Beefcake was on the card. He wrestled Masa Saito. Muta has had a hard time here, and fair enough, he was not at his best. In his defence though, I believe he was working with a really quite serious knee injury at this time. As I understand it, he and Power Warrior botched up a slam off the top rope move, Muta fell to the outside and really wrenched his already delicate knee. This was in March, and Muta did not wrestle between that and the Hogan match. According to the Observer, he only made the match because of the importance of the card in the brand new dome. He didn't wrestle again until he returned full time about a month later either. As far as the match goes, it was kind of weird. Both Hogan and Muta flipped back and forth between being all out face and total heel at various poonts in the match. Hogan was clearly putting in a lot of effort but skinny 93 Hogan just didn't have the aura that he used to and Muta did quite a lot considering the pain he was likely in. It's a shame, because I think a Massive Hogan vs Healthy Muta in about 1991 might have actually been very good.

Around then I think. My first tape was GAB 90 as I mentioned. I got it either for my Christmas in 1991 or my birthday in the summer of 92. Memory is a bit hazy, but I would guess they came out towards the end of 91 or early in 92. Like Parv, they weren't easy to come by for me, I'd have only become aware of them if my parents took me on a shopping trip to the big city of Dundee where they had a John Menzies.

What about the WCW videos? I remember getting them all ASAP as they came out. The videos were a big part too. The first tape I bought was Great American Bash 90 and the first match on it was Midnight Express vs The Southern Boys. I loved it and still call that one of my favourite matches 25 years after I saw it. That match played a big part in me appreciating The Midnights and in turn being excited to see the Heavenly Bodies as their direct descendants.