Microstatistics

So, its later now. I almost don't know which one to start with. I flipped a coin. Bryan goes first. Ok, its still tough. So, here's the deal, I still absolutely love a lot of early indy American Dragon/Danielson. I think the Low Ki matches absolutely hold up as great matches (I haven't rewatched KOI, but I've watched the Super 8, Steamboat Match & Submission match within the last 3 months). I rewatched those on a Low-Ki binge and came away thinking "Yeah, I prefer Low-Ki but I'm not willing to say he's absolutely better than Bryan in this era." Bryan was a lot more polished and while Ki was as well in many ways, I think there's a lot more untapped potential watching young Low-Ki than Young Bryan. Young Bryan was basically already a great worker and you could tell he was going to get even better but you sort of knew what he was going to be (as a worker, not as a star). Young Ki, gosh that dude was just overflowing with potential and he could have done a lot more not just as a star but as a worker. The early Bryan matches with Spanky and Regal I think hold up as well. Stuff like that I really enjoy. The ROH stuff really wore me down though. For every match I liked, I found another 2-3 that I just couldn't get through. I thought the Nigel matches were terrible matches. He's maybe the best example of a wrestler where I like what he does, I like long portions of his matches, but by the end of them I find myself thinking "I hate this and just want it to end." The criticisms that people have lobbed at that mid 00s indy run of going eight to forty minutes too long is a very real thing. Was it ambitious? Absolutely. Impressive? Sure on some level. Was he having MOTYC's every show. FUCK NO. I started to like him again towards the end of the decade when he was popping up in Evolve and getting away from the "Super Indy" style of wrestling and back to a more William Regal combined with BattlArts stylistic feel. I imagine when people look back at his WWE run they're going to talk about how wasted he was for the first few years working guys like Miz or Dolph Ziggler or Ted Dibiase. Uh, here's the thing, that's Bryan at his peak to me. Carrying the Miz in 2010 to a legit very good match based completely around submission work? That is impressive. Getting very good matches out of Ted Dibiase? This dude figured out how to have a compelling 3 way "submissions count anywhere" match with Miz & John Morrison? As the WWE run continued, I think he got worse and worse in some ways. He was still having good-great matches. The Sheamus 2/3 Falls match was a legit great match. The Cena match is my pick for the best match in the history of the company. The HHH match is so far and away HHH's best match its comical. There's a lot of entertaining stuff and he's very consistent. I ranked this dude in the top 30 for my GWE poll almost entirely on the strength of that WWE run. But as I was watching a ton of Modern wrestling post project (Got and watched all of Will's MOTYC sets and poked around the internet for other stuff as well), I realized that Bryan in WWE was an experiment to answer the question of "Would KENTA be good if all of this matches were 10-15 minutes instead of 25-45 minutes?" Because that's what Bryan evolved into. He slowly just became the US version of KENTA only working 1/3 as long. The matches were certainly better than KENTA's nightmarish marathon matches and I think he still had some holy shit level great matches. But by and large I'm less impressed with that WWE run after having to sit through all those KENTA matches. One final note, and I'll kinda use this to bridge over to Misawa...I thought that WM IC Title match where he and Ziggler (I think it was Dolph) were doing the dueling headbutts on top of the ladder that everyone dug at the time was one of the dumbest fucking spots I've ever seen. I care about adaptability in a wrestler, maybe not as much as Matt as evidenced by our Stan Hansen discussions (which Matt is obviously wrong about ), but it is important. It is a big reason Terry Funk & El Satanico are my #1 & #2. Coming back after major, career threatening neck surgery and a shocking history of concussions only to pull out a spot like those dueling headbutts just to pop the crowd is so fucking stupid that I can't even believe it. In general, I think Bryan was a great wrestler, but I'd have him more around 75-80 now instead of top 30. Jumping over to Misawa. That's sort of my biggest criticism of All Japan in general and Misawa specifically. I think the repeated headdropping spots are awful. Again, I get the appeal and I was right there with everyone else. But the more I think about it and the more I watch stuf like Dick Murdoch vs The Nightmare, the deeper down the list MIsawa falls. Jerry Lawler being able to craft compelling matches around hide the chain spots or Terry Funk getting mad because Rick Martel is elbow dropping his cowboy hat are much more impressive than "Ok, you dump me on my head for 25 minutes over and over again and I'll eventually come back and kill you" which I think is is an incredibly lazy and stupid way to build a match and as the years wore on, you could see the effect it was having. Not just on Misawa, but the matches. His top rope splash and facelock submission were once awesome nearfalls that became less and less relevant until they became basically throwaway spots that meant less than Steve Austin flipping guys off or The People's Elbow. Looking at his career more specifically, was Misawa one of the 250 best wrestlers of the 1980s? Tiger Mask II didn't really suck, but its not something I would point to as a generally great part of his career (important yet, match quality wise, eh). Of all the next generation wrestlers in All Japan, Kawada & Kobashi "figured it out" sooner than Misawa and became great wrestlers by 92 (digging further, Jumbo became great quicker than Misawa, Jun did, its hard to say with Taue but I'd lean towards yes as well, only Tenryu took as long/longer to figure it out than MIsawa, but Tenryu proceeded to peak much higher and much longer and was much smarter in the ring than MIsawa). When Misawa finally caught up, in 94/95, the All Japan stuff started to fall apart for me. Really, it starts to fall apart as early as 1993 at points. There is some great stuff later on to be sure I still like. 1/20/97 still somehow, someway works for me where almost every other big All Japan match post 6/3/94 is a chore to get through and leaves me rolling my eyes. Oddly enough if a lot of those matches were chopped down to 18-20 and the first big headrop or the lariat or whatever ends the match, I might think a different way entirely (all that Kawada needed to be in the running for best ever was working New Japan instead of All Japan imo). I might still think those dudes were the best wrestlers. Similar to the Rey/Juv point I made in the other thread, the initial praise about those guys often surrounded the pace they worked and how they would get into the nearfalls "and keep going and going and going" and it was beyond what any heavyweights had done before. Well, the "going and going and going" part is absolutely what causes me to roll my eyes. This is about to be one of those "Way harsh, Tai" moments, but to be perfectly blunt, if you completely run out of ideas to pop the crowd and get heat for your matches unless you're getting dropped onto your head over and over for years in every match to the point where you end up getting essentially decapitated in the ring, I can't think of you as anything other than a dumb wrestler and dumber person. He could have been one of the 5 best wrestlers ever. He had the talent but I don't think he had the smarts. I know this paragraph is awful and probably offensive, but I can't look at this guy's matches and think he's a smart wrestler. I did a post GWE "gut reaction" sort of list about a month ago and both guys still made my top 100. Misawa was 77 & Bryan 78. If I did it again, I can't imagine Misawa making my top 100. Bryan almost certainly would still be top 100. So yeah. Sorry. I'm going to go run away and hide now as you all destroy me. Some really interesting thoughts on Bryan and Misawa After checking out all phases of his career post-GWE, Bryan is someone I regret not putting in my Top 10. He is the best US wrestler ever in my eyes. Early Bryan is great, 2007-2010 hybrid Bryan is fantastic (maybe his peak), his WWE run is superb. Mid-2000's ROH Bryan is terrific but flawed. I agree some matches were waaaaaay too long, had more "excess" than late All Japan and selling could iffy. But the general quality of matches, his versatility and adaptability to different opponents could not be argued. I also agree he could have made some better decisions in the WWE at the end given his health condition but that didn't really affect the quality of his matches so I won't ding him for that For Misawa, I agree his 80s is ok but nothing special. I also agree that until 1993 or so he was the 3rd or 4th best guy of the corners (though still really good). But peak Misawa (let's say lets say late 93 to 1/20/1997) is absolutely undeniable where he was maybe the best wrestler in the world and had an aura like no other. Based on Jvk's BIGLAV Intangibles he would be a slam dunk 10/10. I disagree about the headdropping/excess which didn't really get out of hand until mid-97 and he was still able to craft great matches even with it (IMO) so I had no problem with it. I can definitely see the "he wasn't smart" argument for his post prime. He could be lazy where he would let his opponent brutally destroy him for 80% of the match, then he would make a comeback and win. But he still had that presence and aura and still sold well and could have compelling matches (IMO) even with the over the top headdropping so I wouldn't criticize him as a worker for that, even if that style wasn't particularly prudent health-wise and eventually killed him.

Yep. Obviously Halloween Havoc 97 is their masterpiece and is an all time classic but they had other good stuff in WCW too. The 2004 match is excellent. The 2005 series is really great, even when the booking went to shit. Other stuff in between too. Agree with this.

Been meaning to do a review of this because after a recent rewatch, I thought this match was absolutely amazing and my #2 for the decade (behind Akiyama-Inoue). Just terrific matwork, striking and storytelling, brilliant little character-based touches from Tamura, great selling by both and an incredibly dramatic finishing stretch. This is as good as any shootstyle ever done. **** 3/4

I'm the same way (though I prefer GAB to Cade). Superbrawl is a distant third, handicapped by the gimmick. A really good match but the first two are classics.

I was going to say Benoit but not because of the incident. I rewatched his stuff over the past year especially during the GWE project and a lot of his stuff didn't really hold up. Too workrate-y and I almost never use that as a criticism.

I have found this match disappointing given the praise surrounding it. That doesn't mean it's not really great but not really MOTDC level. My biggest complaint is the pacing which is so weird. I thought there are odd pauses and lulls in action. Loss is right, it could have been tighter/more compact. What makes it even more weird is that this is a Kobashi match and he usually paces his matches better than literally everyone ever, IMO. Still Ogawa's heel antics and Kobashi's selling and aggression are top notch. **** 1/4

The fact that Bryan vs. Lesnar never happened is incredibly disappointing.

Interesting that Daichi match was discussed here because, after watching it recently, I think it sums up my thoughts on Naoya Ogawa perfectly. Great on offense, great charisma and character work but mediocre with everything else. He is as polarizing as Shawn Michaels or Kurt Angle are. I am in the middle with him. Decent-good, no way terrible but definitely not great. Shinya Hashimoto made him look way better than he actually ever was which should a positive for Hashimoto rather than Ogawa.

It's funny Angle and Benoit had that highly praised match a few days before on PPV and Rey gets a much better match out of Angle in Anyways this is great great cat and mouse stuff. Rey was probably Angle's best opponent. Also Rey takes an absolutely disgusting headdrop bump that would have made the All Japan dudes cringe. ****

Rewatched this first time in years and I don't know, I liked it. Nowhere near their best but really good. An excellent selling performance by Kawada, truly great. His determination and fire were also great. Also liked the finish: after all of that overkill and violence, he gets pinned by a simple German suplex that wasn't even executed properly. *** 1/2

Very little for me. Commentary in US matches is, more often than not, pretty bad so I try to generally not pay attention to what they're saying. Japanese commentary is great but I don't understand 97% of what is being said so it has no real influence.

Simple answer: a lot. Two people could watch the same match and interpret the overall story and individual spots in completely different ways.

I'm just about done with the 2008 feud and concur. Forgot to mention it in my earlier post, but 2008 is a hell of year for Michaels. The Jericho matches & angles are all great, I think the Flair match it awesome and he pulls some good things together with Batista as well. Agree that 2008 feud was really good. I'd give that WM match around ***3/4 so very good but not quite great. It's a really great Jericho performance but a mediocre Michaels performance. My biggest knock against post-comeback Shawn is that he could be inconsistent. When he was on, he was really great but would occasionally phone it in.

Cena's latest indy tendencies got me thinking about his career and his wrestling ability in general. I came to the conclusion that his stuff since 2015 doesn't really diminish what he did when he was really good/great because you could argue he is in his post-prime and what he is doing doesn't represent his best work. That being said, as I thought about it, he is nowhere near as good as someone like Bret, IMO. Cena has more decent-good matches for sure but that's more due to accumulated quality resulting from the sheer volume he worked. It's harsh to say he was hit or miss but he could be inconsistent. I'd take Bret's average performance (even when he might BS his way through a match) over Cena's average performance. Bret is way superior when it comes to inputs and he is much more versatile. Bret also completely swamps him when it comes to truly high end matches (****+) matches, IMO. In fact Bret's list of great singles matches against a variety of opponents is pretty staggering. I have no idea why some people say he doesn't have the volume for an all timer. Cena is easily the better ace though.

Have you seen Fujinami's matches vs. Go Ryuma from the late 70s NJPW?. Completely different from the NWA/70s All Japan style of working headlocks, armbars, hammerlocks for extended periods of time. Same with Hashimoto/Hase matwork in the 90s. Also like Loss said, Jumbo/AJPW are part of the NWA style when it comes to working the mat (Though Jumbo is one of the guys I don't mind watching work that style)

I have it behind at least 3 Tamura matches but this is still an excellent chess-like match. From a technique and CV endurance standpoint you are not going to see anything better/more impressive. The holds are really quite minimalist compared to the flashy stuff Tamura did with Han and Yamamoto but the story is still pretty involved (took me a few watches to grasp it). **** 1/2

Generally agree with this, as I simply want it to be active and look painful. Don't just lay there. The proponent should work to make it look like he's going out of his way to wear down his opponent and inflict real damage, while the man selling should actively put over the position he's in and work to escape. Don't just lie there. It's funny that's your criteria and you picked NWA Old-Style matwork because to me that style seriously lacks all of those aspects you mentioned. Not being judgmental, it's just interesting how one thing can be seen in two completely different ways.

Added an option for it. I think you are referring to the late 70s-80s New Japan matwork which I can't believe I forgot about. Tatsumi Fujinami is the best non-lucha non-shoot style matworker ever, IMO. Edit: I changed it to strong style which now includes 70s, 80s, 90s NJPW matwork, basically Inoki's style

The type of matwork done varies depending on location and era and different people prefer different things. Shoot-style and lucha matwork are easily my top 2, light years ahead of NWA style matwork which can be sleep inducing at times to be honest unless someone really dynamic is doing it. I like British matwork a lot but not nearly as much as lucha or shoot-style matwork. It was a difficult decision for me but even though lucha matwork can be jaw-droppingly great, shoot-style is probably my favorite style of pro wrestling ever so I went with that.

I would strongly recommend Kobashi's GHC title 2003-2005 run. It might be the best heavyweight title run in history in terms of diversity of opponents and quality of matches. It's one of the main reasons I think Kobashi is clearly the greatest of the four pillars.

Yeah but that doesn't make it a workrate style. No ones thinks 90s All Japan's greatness stems solely from lots of big moves and tons of nearfalls. In fact that's one of the criticisms. I know people like MattD have said they think the style started going overboard from as early as 1993.

Lol so true. Why couldn't he watch AJPW and Crockett tapes with his girlfriend?"If only Cena watched workrate wrestling B instead of workrate wrestling A things would be so much better". I hope you're joking.

This is probably an exaggeration but it holds some validity. It's weird Cena gets a relative free pass for a lot of the stuff he has been doing recently. If modern Japanese workers or indy workers or even Kurt Angle constructed matches the same way he has been doing, they would receive a ton of criticism. Maybe I'm wrong but I seen, in Cena's case, people notice the bad tendencies but just gloss over them. Overall I'll take Cena comfortably because of good matches against a variety of opponents and ability to deviate from the standard formula. Angle has been pretty boring since 2004 or so.

A common criticism of styles like 90s All Japan and a lot of modern wrestling is that the matches have a ton of excess. I was wondering what exactly is people's definition of excess. Is it too many big moves and spots? Is it too many nearfalls? Something else? For me, excess is anything that does little to drive the narrative and basically does not play any meaningful role in a match . So, hypothetically, if a match has a 100 nearfalls and all of them are consequential and further the match, then it's not excessive. While a match with 5 nearfalls, where 3 of them were pointless, that could be considered excessive. I ask this because the criticism is mostly associated with maximalist styles. This might be a weird example but Sangre Chicana vs. Perro Aguayo from 2/86 has a ton of nearfalls, some of which I honestly thought were unnecessary and did little to further the match. That falls under my definition of excess. But that's a minimalist lucha brawl instead of a Kenta Kobashi match with lots of half nelson suplexes so would it be odd to say that match has excess?