joeg

Agreed on both accounts... I saw Cesaro multiple times in person on the indies in the 2000s. You could see the potential because of the prototypical size and the look, but he was so clumsy and sloppy. And his timing was terrible. Plus his strikes (especially that European uppercut) looked like dogshit.

Back like 10 years ago puroresu.tv did a Best of Japan in the 70s project I was lucky enough to participate in, I think either Gordi or Matt D was the one that hooked me up. Anyways through that I saw a lot of Jumbo's early work from 73 and 74 and it is nothing short of fucking awesome.

Jumbo is a good answer. Wrestled in the 72 Olympics, made his debut in the winter of 72, went on excursion to the Amarillo territory in spring of 73 came back fall of 73 and was tagging with Baba immediately upon his return and was regularly working broadways against the Funks and Briscoes in tags and singles by January/February of 74.

The discussion a week back in the Observer HOF about Kobashi's rookie year inspired me to start this thread. What wrestler had the greatest rookie year ever? Who are some wrestlers that were just a natural from the get go? Who had a bad rookie year but eventually ended up being a decent worker? What wrestlers looked awful in their first year but ended up having great careers later? I'll start off with a few names that I think are no brainers- Jerry Lawler, won his first title 16 months in and by the end of his third year was the top heel in the territory. Jun Akiyama, more crisp and smooth that most 10 year vets in his debut match and only got better from there. Daniel Bryan same as Akiyama. A natural from his first recorded matches in TWA in the late summer of 99. A year and a half later he looked like one of the best workers in the world.

I haven't seen Ethan Page much in recent years, but what I have seen I've been impressed with. 5 or 6 years back when he was on the indies I really enjoyed how he stood out as a guy who got heat and worked the crowd as opposed to being a spot monkey, but I thought he was too sloppy, not athletic enough, and didn't look the part for a major promotion. But from what I've seen recently, he''s gotten in good shape, cleaned up some of his mechanics and really tightened his work up. If there's a most improved wrestler over the past 5 or 6 years its got to be him. As for the earlier discussion on PAC, I see him as being the best flippy junior heavyweight opening match guy out there. He's the best in the world in that role, but he's nothing more than that role. To me he's not a main event guy who will draw money for a lot of reasons, size, lack of personality, inability to cut a promo, difficulty putting together long matches, etc. But in that role where he has a 10 minute match to open a show to get the crowd going or is in the match right at the 9 oclock hour to keep people from changing the channel, that's his wheelhouse.

Amazing. I agree with EL-P on something post 1990... EL-P you are 1000% correct about Mauro! His style is different and sets him apart, but that doesn't mean he's good.

So I thought everything was everything was at least ok with the exception of the women's match which was dreadful. Tag titles was fun, the 6 man was fun, hopefully Blue Demon Jr vs LA Park goes somewhere. The Marvel match was good for what it was. The Omega vs Loredo Kid match was pretty good. And the main event was not bad for what it was. Other than the women's match there was nothing offensively bad but at the same time there was nothing must see great either.

I know what you meant by it, like the way an old football coach describes a d-end as stiff he means not a lot of bend in the ankles, knees, hips, not a lot of explosiveness and a lack of overall body control. Thats how I took it. I gotta ask you have you not seen Kobashi's work from his early years? For a kid that age, size, and experience level he's as fluid, nimble and as explosive as I've ever seen.

I know what you meant by it, like the way an old football coach describes a d-end as stiff he means not a lot of bend in the ankles, knees, hips, not a lot of explosiveness and a lack of overall body control. Thats how I took it. I gotta ask you have you not seen Kobashi's work from his early years? For a kid that age, size, and experience level he's as fluid, nimble and as explosive as I've ever seen.

Dude you've had some hot takes but this. This is the hottest take ever. Not only was Taue more athletic than Kobashi but Kobashi in his early career was stiff as a rod... When I watch Kobashi matches from 88 and 89 I see a 6'2" 235 pound kid who is built like a brick shit house, jumps over the top rope to enter the ring, gets good height on his dropkick, runs the ropes well, is light on his feet, and is a snapback bumper. I see a fucking natural, a future main eventer. The last thing I see is somebody who is uncoordinated, unathletic, awkward or stiff. I don't understand how somebody could see anything else.

Like was the opinion that Taue was a better worker period because that's fucking insane. Or was the opinion that Taue had been the better worker at a given point in 2006ish to 2012ish. Because that's very much open for debate as the last few years of Taue's career he aged like a fine wine where as Kobashi turned to vinegar.

I personally don't think Kenny should be in, yet. Same with Ibushi. I feel as though they are both just starting the back 9 of their careers and putting them in a Hall of Fame now would be premature. I also don't understand the argument of Omega's in ring work being a deciding factor. He isn't a guy whose in ring work is universally loved by everyone like Danielson or Eddie Guerrero. He's more along the lines of a John Cena or RVD or Kurt Angle. Omega is somebody who a large portion of wrestling fandom has hyped as GOAT contender in ring and an equally large portion of wrestling fandom was able to sit back and nitpick and exaggerate his flaws. I don't think a body of work that is that divisive should really count either way.

How do I watch IWRG tonight? Its the 58th Anniversary of the Moreno family promoting and they are running Dr Wagner Jr vs Mascara Ano 2000 Jr Hair vs Hair on top.

Exactly. I think his biggest argument for inclusion isn't that he took the Tokyo Dome show from 25,000 paid to 34,000 paid or his in ring work (which is subject for debate as it isn't universally loved). I think the biggest argument for Omega's inclusion is that a garbage indie with no TV that was drawing less than a 700 people to their biggest shows brought him in, put him on top, and sold out the Budokan twice and became a legit number 2 company in Japan!! And then after he left went back to being a garbage indie that couldn't fill Korakeun Hall. Only other people to really do that in Japan are Terry Funk and Mick Foley.

In America the 1936 Olympics and Jessie Owen's performance is absolutely mentioned in history classes as a source of national pride in the face the Nazi propaganda machine leading to WWII. Joe Louis knocking out Max Schmeling in 1938 may also gets a mention for the same reason. Americans like to talk about their heroes that showed up the Nazi.

As a huge Takeshi Beat Kitano fan I think a far more accurate comparison would be Clint Eastwood. Somebody who originally became famous acting in light hearted TV shows, then graduated to staring in serious films, then moved onto directing and producing award winning films in the later part of his career.

My knee jerk reaction is that whatever this arrangement is will be great publicity for Impact but make AEW look bush league in the process. No company has ever worked with Impact and came out the better of it. Doesn't matter who is in charge, they've always managed to fuck their partners. So allowing your new champ to appear on Impact tv just seems like a huge leap of faith that something wont go horribly wrong. Plus AXS is burried so deep in the cable package that the only people who know where to find Impact's tv are the people already watching.

That's fascinating. To find out not only that Rikidozan and Kimura weren't that historically significant but also that Japan doesn't really have any historical cultural icons in sports is sort of fascinating from an American prospective. One more question. If there isn't aren't any sporting figures mentioned in history books in Japan are there any sporting events deemed that important? Something equal to lets say Yankees vs Senators July 4th 1939? A sporting event that literally every American at some point has seen clips, seen pictures of, or heard a recording of, even if they don't know the context.

It is!!!! I'm going to glued to my sofa all day. Between those 3 shows, the Anthony Joshua fight, the Shakur Stevenson fight, the UFC fight, OSU vs Michigan, hell of a day for sports/fight/wrestling fans.... Is there any chance of Chessman winning?

Thanks OJ. Thats why I love this board, I'm always learning. I knew the Rikidozan movie didn't do well at the box office but I just assumed that's because it was poorly reviewed and not very good. Its interesting because I always thought Rikidozan and Kimura were the cultural equivalent of Jessie Owens, Babe Didrickson, Jackie Robinson, Lou Gerhig, Joe Louis, or Muhammed Ali in the states. Athletes who are still house hold names over a half century later because of their contribution not just to their sport but to American society as a whole. Which Japanese professional athletes are on that level of cultural and historical signifigance?

Except they haven't legitimately sold the Dome out since 2003. They did respectable numbers with Jericho vs Omega, Omega vs Okada and Omega vs Tanahashi but they weren't sell outs.

100%. If the argument for Kenny Omega being in the HOF is his drawing power in New Japan then Devitt, Styles, and Jay White all should be in as well as they drew similar attendance figures when in that same spot as the top gajin heel. Really the better argument for him as a draw in Japan is the attendance figures for DDT. They managed to sell 11,000 seats at the Budokan with him on top! The only other Westerners who impacted a Japanese indie's attendance figures like that were Terry Funk and Mick Foley.

Ok so I think this got side tracked. My question was more the mechanics of how and why guys signed to ROH/Impact/MLW/etc aren't appearing on AEW as there isn't a scheduling conflict. Because there seems to be a couple dozen really talented guys working in the US right now who AEW isn't using and who appearing once every week or two wouldn't interfer with any of their other bookings or commitments. Now Rovert said that ROH and Impact have contracts that exclude their wrestlers from appearing else where on TV. And I ask how is that possible for a company that only runs 40 dates a year (in the best of years) to tell their independent contractors what they can and cannot do on the other 325 days of the year? I wasn't trying to open up debate as to whether or not Sami Callihan would do better in that "lower card jobber that gets some offense in" spot than Janela does (the answer is yes by such a wide margin that I didn't know we could debate this). I instead was was just wondering why we aren't seeing more guys under contract elsewhere like a Sami Callihan (or the other dozen of examples I listed) make an appearance on AEW Dynamite from time to time.

Awesome answer... now how could a company like ROH/Impact/MLW/etc that runs less than 40 dates a year dictate who and where their independent contractors work for on nights where they don't run shows? Doesn't that violate independent contractor status and how would small companies be able to get away with doing that?

I've said it here before about the AEW roster... Which of those guys I threw out there would be able to defend themselves if the average drunk fan came at them? O? That's what makes them indie sleaze, being on TNT for the last 18 months doesn't make them credible all of the sudden. The fact that they have been doing indie shit on TNT instead of an American Legion Hall for the past 18 months doesn't change the fact that they are indie wrestling acts and aren't credible as actual professional athletes. That is my point, instead of having a bunch of regular guys playing pro wrestler filling up the undercard and making portions of the show look bush league, why not co-operate with some of the "bigger indies" and use their top guys to fill up those spots with actual pro wrestlers. But if we can't agree that untrained guys like Joey Janela and Jack Evans aren't real pro wrestlers but ordinary guys playing pro wrestler like we all did in the backyard as kids then we will never agree on anything in modern wrestling.