brockobama

One of these things is not like the other.

Rip's certainly taking this argument in a different direction. https://twitter.com/Hustler2754/status/864465439111434241 https://twitter.com/IVPvideos/status/864478674313252864

Zellner: "The reason Joe Malenko quit [AJPW] is because he's now part owner of a pharmacy." Bix: "I'll say!" This killed me. Real good episode in general.

Only half of the podcast is spent talking about how dumb his droopy pleather hoodie/vest was.

At least for a while, Chono has Team 2000 Crash as his theme, which I'd put over most anything Orton has ever done in the ring.

This is the root of the problem for me. As Matt was getting at, selling is one of a couple ways in which I derive meaning from the narrative of wrestling. If wrestlers are already forming their narrative around a structure that I find to be fairly clichéd and overdone, and then one or more of them stop pretending as if the consequences of those efforts matter, then what should I care about what they're doing? Of course, you could flip that logic on its head, arguing that if the efforts are clichéd to begin with, ignoring them isn't so much of an issue, but I guess I'm trying to find something here that I can latch on to. I see this argument a lot and while it's very true, I find it funny, because my experience with knee problems (both of 'em) has been usually the opposite.

Considering that... A. I don't use or really even approve of star ratings B. There are very large gaps in my viewing history C. It's been a number of years since I've seen a lot of the classics that I *have* seen ...here are some snowflakes: ***** Jumbo Tsuruta vs Billy Robinson - AJPW 03/05/1977 Stan Hansen vs Andre the Giant - NJPW 09/23/1981 Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat - NWA 02/20/1989 Sangre Chicana vs El Satanico - EMLL 05/26/1989 Masakatsu Funaki vs Tatsuo Nakano - UWF 07/24/1989 Ric Flair vs Terry Funk - NWA 11/15/1989 Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas vs Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi - AJPW 05/25/1992 Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori - AJW 04/02/1993 Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi - AJPW 07/29/1993 Bret Hart vs Owen Hart - WWF 08/29/1994 Shinya Hashimoto vs Hiroshi Hase - NJPW 12/13/1994 Nobuhiko Takada vs Shinya Hashimoto - NJPW 04/29/1996 Bret Hart vs Stone Cold Steve Austin - WWF 03/23/1997 Negro Casas vs El Hijo del Santo - CMLL 09/19/1997 Atlantis vs Villano III - CMLL 03/17/2000 Samoa Joe vs Bryan Danielson - ROH 10/02/2004 Samoa Joe vs Necro Butcher - ROH 06/11/2005 John Cena vs Umaga - WWE 01/28/2007 Blue Panther vs Villano V - CMLL 09/19/2008 John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 07/17/2011

I think a "was pushed to be the top guy or 1b to Cena's 1a" guy being a disappointment is a bigger deal than a "might have been a top guy but became perennial secondary title fodder" guy being a disappointment. And depending on how much you value his TV work, some people might not call Sheamus a disappointment. EDIT: Orton's also done it much longer and will probably still do it after Sheamus is gone.

After reading Phil and Eric review it, figured I'd watch this today for the first time in ~8 years, since I'd only ever seen it right when I was first getting into lucha and didn't really get everything. But man, what a match this is. Such drama, such suspense. It's been a while since I could call a match actually, literally breathtaking, as I was gasping at a few of those topes. Both men play their roles superbly working to and from a faux heel turn in the first two falls, to the point that people are booing Panther (against a Villano, no less) just before he rips the mask off. By the time the tercera starts, though, he's won them back, despite the fact that Villano has already started bleeding through his replacement mask and is in a very sympathetic spot. Watching this, I figured that Panther had just ripped off Villano's mask in a moment of righteous indignation, but these comments about the water loosening up the mask never occurred to me and adds a very interesting layer on top of an already great match. I don't always take into account how the crowd reacts when I'm watching a match, mostly due to the fact that we usually have very different reactions. But here, due mainly to how much CMLL focuses on crowd shots, the audience really stood out to me. In the tercera, I think, there's this shot of an old woman in some nice formal wear, and she's arguing with a fan a row or two behind her, off camera. She's got a Panther mask and in the process of arguing with this fellow fan, she puts it on and looks at the camera before returning to her argument. When Villano wins, there's a bunch of shots of fans celebrating, some practically weeping, some jumping for joy. They return to this old woman, first peering down to the concrete floor to see that she's dropped her Panther mask, or perhaps has thrown it down in disgust. Quickly she pulls it up and tosses it into the crowd, frustrated, humiliated by her idol. This moment of defeat juxtaposed with so many images of triumph really sticks with me. So much of wrestling just doesn't warrant a big reaction from me most of the time, even when the crowd watching it live is loving it, so when my own reaction is somewhere close to the sort of adulation we see here after the match, I think it's the sign of quality. Delightful stuff.

Real missed opportunity at the end not saying that Sam would have to play the role of Super Porky due to his height. I might never listen again because of such a gaffe.

That's the real issue, yeah. Dude's clearly got some level of skill based on his best matches, but when he's not there mentally, it's mundane as hell in the ring. Interesting point with Rollins that I definitely agree with, though it's hard to tell how much of that is just based on how little I like Rollins. Comparing parts of their WWE careers, I'd put the best Shield tag stuff way above the best Evolution tag stuff, though Rollins in a singles setting hasn't really reached the level of my favorite Orton singles matches outside of the MITB cash-in. Hard to tell where he goes in the future, especially if that knee keeps becoming an issue.

It's been a number of years since I saw either of their matches that year, but from what I remember, the drama of that cage match did more for me than the more reserved version of the same at Mania.

You have to imagine that's what happened.

What percentage of wrestling fans are casual fans, you think?

I think in that case the PPV crowd would be more upset about it than the live crowd. And then there's the whole "main event isn't the main event/we have five 'main event matches' for you tonight" argument that always gets brought up.

As WWE adds more and more "essential" (whether or not any of it's all that essential when everything is covered fairly extensively via replays and flashbacks and whatnot) programming, I think the definition of a casual fan changes. I think today I'd describe a casual fan as someone who doesn't branch out from what's been presented in front of them for however long they've been a fan. There's nothing all that casual about watching 5+ hours of what is essentially one TV show every week, but I think I'd agree the mindset behind it might be. Matt D's also very right with his argument, that it's all on a scale. It's weird, because this sort of divide is present in other forms of entertainment, but in different ways. Could we describe someone who watches two or three football games a week as a casual football fan? You're looking at 6-10 hours a week with all that football. Back when I had TV, I used to do that most every week, but I never considered myself all that much of a hardcore football fan.

Think I'm just going to copy and paste the thoughts from my blog here: "I got this huge smile on my face when I thought back to the first round and realized what match was coming next. Making his entrance, Thatcher is likewise beaming, which gives me hope for these two California boys. Feeling each other out, they circle around the ring, Cobb having the advantage most of the time, though Thatcher's mood would indicate he's anything but worried. Repeatedly Thatcher goes for the big man's arm, but Cobb's size is too great an obstacle to get much going, and he's likewise able to avoid an ankle lock. Leaning on Thatcher, Cobb continues to use his size to his advantage, brilliantly escaping a cross armbreaker at one point. Thatcher is quite vocal here, jovial and talkative, drawing a number of laughs from the audience. Both men force a few rope breaks as the match progresses, each of them showing signs of fatigue, as this is certainly the longest match for the night [EDIT: at least in the AMBITION tournament]. A HUGE gutwrench suplex sends Thatcher flying, as does a fairly bananas deadlift German, but he thinks quickly and uses his positioning to trap Cobb in a double wrist lock when he crashes down on the second suplex, forcing him to tap. Thatcher drags himself to the corner, slumped up against the pads, clutching his neck. His face turns from pain to joy. He chuckles at himself softly as he works his way back to the middle of the ring. Thatcher extends his hand and Cobb takes it, Thatcher bowing as he does so. The crowd applauds for these men and their performances. As Thatcher is announced as the winner, he points at his opponent, shouting his friend's name into the air. Delightful, delightful stuff here, interesting and entertaining all the way through as it unfolds. Go out of your way for this one, folks." What I love about this match is the fact that it's two guys giving it their all in the spirit of friendly competition. Understandably some people aren't into that; they want more hate or more grittiness or less toothy grins. I totally get that, and I feel that way myself much of the time. Once you delve into the "wrestlers who just want to have fun and just love doin' cool spots" deep end, it's easy to lose track of any sort of realism or meaning. As much as I liked the tournament, you got a lot of that during 16 Carat. But AMBITION is this whole other thing, in which guys with some form of legit background come together to test their mettle against like-minded opponents. It's still more self-aware than, say, Mid-South in the 80's, but that sense of competition is still there and competitors can still delight in it. I know I certainly do, watching this match. It's very enjoyable to see two long-time friends do their thing in a relatively shoot environment in front of an appreciative crowd.

On a mechanical level, a lot of this is pretty so so. The early strikes are weak (notice especially Thatcher's fumbling when he's cut off in the opening spot, unsure if he should block ZSJ's blows or return fire) and a lot of the bumps throughout are sloppy (Thatcher's German, a litany of floppy ZSJ half-bumps). But that sort of adds to the allure, I guess. A super hot crowd (for indie standards), bloodthirsty for Thatcher's head, will on their cute little babyface as he overcomes the big bad trashy guy they don't like and preaches a message of acceptance at the end. There's lots of hate here, not because these two necessarily hate each other all that match, but because they're both desperate for the spot at the top of the mountain. They're both proud men, selfish men, angry men under all those layers of cool indifference. They swing wildly and aren't as precise as they would be otherwise, but again, that's sort of the point. This match wasn't about a perfect technical exhibition or the spirit of competition; it was about clawing your way to victory. The drama at the end, as mentioned, is pretty delightful stuff. A child, up on the stage, literally dances for joy in a very nice moment. It's not my favorite match of the year, but it's one that I found worthy to write about and it's one I'm sure I'll be revisiting in the coming years. Great stuff.

A fun matchup, in that Lee's size and presence allows him to manhandle most of his smaller opponents while grandstanding to the people, but Ricochet is just experienced enough to be able to take advantage of that and string together some high impact flying to keep him off his game and eventually to steal the match that was Lee's to lose. Ricochet is also prone to grandstanding, but I like that he (sometimes) recognizes when to scale it back. The finishing stretch was just a little too much for me, as I could have used one or two less falsies off the 450 and SSPs, but it rode the line between exciting and excessive better than 90% of the matches in this scene, I'd say. I only watched four or five shows over WM weekend, but of what I saw, this was probably my match of the weekend.

I wasn't sure how this was going to go, considering that Thatcher's technical matches (at least when Gabe's not telling him to go 30) generally have a pretty defined focus and Dickinson's a lot more wild and free-flowing than that. But in the end, they came together to have a surprisingly tight grapplefest, teasing the idea that maybe Thatcher isn't a top guy anymore after losing to ZSJ before he rallies in a believable way that doesn't kill Dickinson's allure either. Fairly well booked and fairly well executed.

Decided I was only going to list matches from the years I've been alive, because A.) it offers an opportunity for strangers on the internet to ridicule me for my age, and B.) it's the years I'm most familiar with. Also, because I'm only covering a relatively small amount of years and since I'm still quite new to this site and haven't exposed my tastes too much (i.e. offered more opportunities for ridicule), I thought I'd do my number two matches for each year as well. 1993 Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori – AJW 04/02 Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi – AJPW 07/29 1994 Bret Hart vs Owen Hart – WWF 08/29 Shinya Hashimoto vs Hiroshi Hase – NJPW 12/13 1995 Aja Kong vs Manami Toyota – AJW 03/16 Nobuhiko Takada vs Vader – UWFi 04/20 1996 Nobuhiko Takada vs Shinya Hashimoto – NJPW 04/29 Shinya Hashimoto vs Riki Choshu – NJPW 08/02 1997 Bret Hart vs Stone Cold Steve Austin – WWF 03/23 Negro Casas vs El Hijo del Santo – CMLL 09/19 1998 Stone Cold Steve Austin vs Dude Love – WWF 05/31 Shinya Hashimoto vs Kazuo Yamazaki – NJPW 08/02 1999 El Hijo del Santo & Negro Casas vs Bestia Salvaje & Scorpio Jr – CMLL 03/19 Kiyoshi Tamura vs Yoshihisa Yamamoto – RINGS 06/24 2000 Atlantis vs Villano III – CMLL 03/17 Yoshihiro Tajiri vs Super Crazy – ECW 01/21 2001 Aja Kong vs Meiko Satomura – GAEA 12/15 Stone Cold Steve Austin & Triple H vs Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho – WWF 05/21 2002 Brock Lesnar vs The Undertaker – WWE 10/20 Yoshihiro Takayama vs Mitsuharu Misawa – NOAH 09/23 2003 Either of the Homicide vs Steve Corino bloodbaths in ROH, leaning closer to the NHB on 08/16 Shin M2K vs Italian Connection vs Do Fixer vs Crazy MAX – Toryumon 08/30 2004 Necro Butcher vs Toby Klein – IWA Mid-South 06/25 Samoa Joe vs Bryan Danielson – ROH 10/02 2005 Samoa Joe vs Necro Butcher – IWA Mid-South 06/11 Either of the H8 Club vs Tough Crazy Bastards matches in CZW during the summer, with the 06/11 match being way bloodier and wilder on the whole and the 07/09 rematch having a better payoff and a few crazier, crazier spots. I'd probably lean towards 06/11 because the one-two punch Necro had on that day is nothing short of incredible. Two classics in the space of like five hours? Move over, Danielson. 2006 Takashi Sasaki vs Abdullah Kobayashi – BJW 03/31 Chris Hero, Necro Butcher, & Super Dragon vs Samoa Joe, BJ Whitmer, & Adam Pearce – ROH 04/22 2007 John Cena vs Umaga – WWE 01/28 Chris Hero vs Eddie Kingston – CZW 04/07 2008 Yuki Ishikawa, Alexander Otsuka, & Munenori Sawa vs Daisuke Ikeda, Katsumi Usuda, & Super Tiger – BattlArts 07/26 Chris Jericho vs Shawn Michaels – WWE 10/05 2009 Fire Ant & Soldier Ant vs Chuck Taylor & Icarus – Chikara 05/24 Amasis & Ophidian vs Fire Ant & Soldier Ant – Chikara 01/25 2010 Daisuke Ikeda vs Takeshi Ono – Futen 09/26 Shingo Takagi vs BxB Hulk – Dragon Gate 07/11 2011 John Cena vs CM Punk – WWE 07/17 Eddie Kingston vs Mike Quackenbush – Chikara 11/13 2012 John Cena vs Brock Lesnar – WWE 04/29 Blood Warriors vs Junction Three – Losing Unit Disbands – Dragon Gate 02/09 2013 Katsuyori Shibata vs Tomohiro Ishii – NJPW 08/04 MASADA vs Jun Kasai – CZW 04/05 2014 Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Katsuyori Shibata – NJPW 07/26 Timothy Thatcher vs Jonathan Gresham – Beyond 08/31 2015 Minoru Suzuki vs Takashi Sugiura – NOAH 09/19 Timothy Thatcher vs Joe Graves – PREMIER 11/28 2016 Meiko Satomura vs Aja Kong – Sendai Girls 04/08 Canis Lupus vs Trauma I – IWRG 09/04 Outside of the 90’s stuff, which has been covered at great length on this site, 2007, 2011, and 2015 were all pretty hard to narrow down to top two for me. Might not light everyone’s world on fire, but what I perceive to be the high-end stuff from those years are real good matches that mean a lot to me. (The all-Chikara year is only slightly a joke)

If they split the two nights between the two brands, imagine the outrage we'd get over one brand having to go the night before the other. In essence, I don't think it's a terrible idea, at least for how I like to consume wrestling, but for a promotion of this size with the sort of fanbase they have and appeal to, it's just not feasible. But in theory, if they split the show into a 3 hour block one night and a 4 or 5 hour block the next night with more "entertainment" filler, I wouldn't mind. How would they brand it, you think? WrestleMania Day 1 and 2? Part 1 and 2? Sun and Moon? Alpha and Omega? Play button and Dallas star?

Watched this today for the first time in a number of years. Despite being a big deathmatch fan and despite this match containing one or two iconic deathmatch moments, I don't love this match all that much, though I find it somewhat fascinating. It exists in this transitional period between Onita's seminal work and when deathmatches went completely overboard (for many people) with BJW and CZW. A few hours before watching this, I watched the two Necro Butcher vs Toby Klein matches from the '03 and '04 KOTDMs, and it's sort of amazing how similar those matches are to this one in certain ways, from the vocalizations to the snug pot shots to the copious blood loss. Obviously the likes of Foley and Funk were big influences on the likes of Necro and Klein, but I still find it interesting how easily you can trace the steps from Onita in Kawasaki Stadium to Thumbtack Jack and his syringes, considering how different they are at face value.

Jumbo Tsuruta vs Sean Maluta Eddie Guerrero vs D'Angelo Dinero "Sick" Nick Mondo vs Mad Man Pondo Ronnie Garvin vs Ricky Marvin and my personal favorite Catweazle vs Diesel

To me, this is one of a few consequences of wrestling becoming more spectacle-oriented than a stylized simulation of competition. Once people were accustomed to a certain level of fireworks and theatrics in their wrestling (which probably happened before most of our lifetimes), the structure of building to a memorable climax became more important than "realism". That's not inherently a bad thing, but it's lead to a lot of formulaic performances over the years, which isn't helped by the ever-increasing accessibly of footage. And this mentality of wanting to see certain guys hit certain moves isn't all that out of the ordinary. People are also accustomed to a certain length of match, especially in a title match or main event setting. Look at the stink the Lesnar vs Goldberg match from Survivor Series made (though of course there was more going on there), or the groans on the opposite end of the spectrum from the recent Okada title defenses. Deviation from the norm is often as maligned as going overboard within the realms of the norm.