War is Raw

Rollins deserves a threadroast because of the Twitter drama and ESPN interview. Roman did not make a personal attack on Jon in his interview. Yes, Seth is a company spokesman and a stooge now, and so would anyone else in that position. But he seems to take glee in it to score points with Trips and Vinnie. But we have the right to moan about it. When Flair would schill for Jim Crockett Promotions and the NWA to start his promos, he was right- he and his league had the best action. When Seth does it, it rings hollow. I have not seen his Tyler Black work enough to comment on it, but his Shield stuff was great. He was like the Jeff Hardy (stylewise) of the bunch and they had a legendary run together. Any issue with his push is all on WWE creative. This was the first site I have seen where no one was buying his in-ring work. But his first feud with Dean was great, and his Cena/Brock stuff holds up. He had a stretch where he was the MVP of a bunch of WWE PPVs in a row (around his Miz feud). Faint praise? Perhaps, but in the WWE bubble, that makes him Shawn Michaels. He's been lackluster this year though and I see no signs of improvement. His best role would be upper midcard and have the best match on the PPV with no pressure of acting like a chamo, but heaven help me I have no idea if it is as a face or heel. And that is on him because of his moves and psychology, which are babyface but he looks and acts like a heel. So he pretty much capped himself as never being a megastar. As far as him being The Man, he is confident, ambitious, and a risk taker, but his voice and character just aren't there if he's trying to be a Ric Flair-type. What is he? Who is he? What does he stand for? Yes, many WWE stars are like this now. He comes off like The Franchise Shane Douglas, who never drew anyway. Gets tiring, especially if you can't back it up. The Becky angle (since dropped I guess) had the potential to ruin both permanently. Not their fault entirely, but it does show that Seth has poor acting skills. Randy Savage kept up his act and was able to work with Liz even when things fell apart in real life, and here is Seth who is in the prime of their relationship and he still sucked.

Hulk Hogan really shined on the podcast. Felt like he is finally at the stage of his life where he has been humbled and is more genuine and coherent than before. We could always try and question and fact check his version of history, but he could pass a lie detector because he believes it. (Does it really matter who had entrance music first in the WWF or if he invented selling t-shirts or if he scripted Andre and Warrior's matches without Patterson or if he wanted to become "HHH" at WM?) I don't want to focus on the nitpicks, though. This was a good walkthrough of his early career and enjoyable podcast. I felt his timeline of events was even better than when he testified in the Gawker case. It jived with other interviews and books from Dr. D, Brian Blair, Grahams, Gagnes, Backlund, et al. Bottom line, though, is he came off as a wrestling fan and someone who is self-aware of the criticisms of his ego. I hope fans take a closer look at his earlier work to see how he controlled the crowd, and how it's kinda dumb to knock his formula.

Yes, he was recognized with the James C. Melby Award for wrestling journalists and historians. What I find amazing is how underrated Apter is now on all the forums I frequent. His influence was paramount on shaping views and promoting workers, and he had one of the early famous websites in 1997- 1Wrestling. Yes, he was the most respected "outsider". But he has always been active and conducts interviews on his podcast and YT channel, but for some reason Meltzer is mentioned 1 million times more and seen as relevant/an authority. He's treated like MAD Magazine, with people only having memories of his 1980s PWI family of mags, but he has a larger body of work all over the net and other mags. The best part? He's a warm, sensitive human being who loves wrestling and the workers. His worst sin was working us as kids and promoting wrestlers who he liked or paid him to be on the cover or whatever with money, access, or a chance to be on TV. It sounds a lot more insidious than it really was. It's rasslin'. I leaned heavily on his work before the net and frankly WON's typeset and price were inferior. Invaluable.

I feel the misfires have been overblown. They are experimenting and leaning on the creativity and fanbase which got them here (BTE + Cody's passion/vengeance). The boys are booking their own stuff. I will not argue with success, and AEW has gotten off to a fantastic start and proven much to me compared to other leagues I've seen followed at launch, like Herb's UWF, ECW, Global, TNA,WSX NXT, MLW, LU, and others I've forgotten. Like, this has been a perfect launch in terms of numbers, match ratings, and crowd happiness. Who cares if there is a production glitch? Khan is the one who mentioned bringing in casuals or lapsed fans. Not sure if that meant 201x ex-WWE fans, Attitude Era fans, or WCW Four Horseman fans. Regardless, Cody I believe recently said something contrary to going after those fans, and wanted to focus on the existing fanbase, as new fans may tune to TNT. Anyway, I haven't seen the business plan, and I'm not an armchair GM. I actually have faith that Tony Khan's 5-year business plan is pretty good. With all due respect, The Dark Order and The Librarians are so irrelevant to the big picture, it sounds like such an overblown nitpick. Attacking the modern style or garbage wrestling is fine if that is not your taste. Not sure why AEW shouldn't have that style, though. I go to my local indy and it's 80s style workrate with 1-2 new style plancha guys. It's for kids. If TNT is like an Americanized NJPW, I'd be thrilled. These two glorified houseshows were stop gaps until All Out and TV. Putting them through the ringer so severely really won't hold up years from now. Like, we make fun of WWE's preshows or bad matches and just move on. Can we even recall what happened at MiTB's undercard without looking? Yes, we have high expectations and I actually think AEW has been putting on better shows than ECW PPVs. I recall 1997 Barely Legal, which also got 100,000 buys (but in a 1,000 seat place), had some disappointing aspects, including a Shane Douglas vs PitBull #2 20-minute bomb. In fact, there was a meme at the time that their TV and house shows were better than their PPVs. I was prepared to just watch the last three matches for Double of Nothing. I was not grabbed at the beginning. But after I did, I watched the whole card. I've watched everything and have been pleased. Everyone works their gimmicks and hustles. Easy to follow and logical storylines. Can't say the same about WWE.

Poor Parv- he specifically did a podcast mini-series outlining every aspect of Ric Flair's work yet some intelligent fans still think Hart was a better ring performer. IMHO the view that Hart > Flair (and it's not even close based on peak and longevity) originated with Hart himself. Many have attached themselves to his original arguments forth in his book...which he had since retracted many years later on Flair's podcast. I love Daniel Bryan as well, but feel there needs to be some "era adjustment" otherwise any modern wrestler who uses a hybrid style will automatically leapfrog over the old timers in terms of career value. For example, I could visualize Meltzer pushing Ospreay, Okada, or Omega is the GWE and it will become a reality one day. IMHO the historical perspective regarding Bryan's post-retirement WWE run will be a Wikipedia footnote shock to new fans 15 years from now. ("Oh, he came back?") I feel his matches with Brock and AJ have been disappointing. Carrying Big Cass does not make a fantastic match. At this point, his added legacy is that he was an eco-heel loved by smarks who put over Kofi (who is already on his way to a boring title reign.) He has been a solid hand since the comeback, which ought to have been in NJPW, where he would have shined more. It is possible a future generation pushes back against the ROH classics, just as fans of today look down upon or are not interested in ECW. It is possible his looks don't hold up. He could have been Bruno, Backlund, and Hart (long term top straight babyface WWF World Champ) but with more of a flair, to use a pun. But he got hurt- more than a couple of times. In baseball, it would be the equivalent of saying Sandy Koufax was the best pitcher ever, but his career was cut short and he benefited by the 1960s pitcher's era and ballpark. However, as I know he will win this poll, I am reminded how fans would rank Dynamite Kid, Tiger Mask, Rick Steamboat as fighting for #1 in the 1980s (Wrestling Eye/Observer/etc.) with the implication being they were the greatest of all time due to innovation and workrate. Has Bryan inspired today's style/workrate? I know that his peers cite Shawn Michaels, AJ Styles, Steve Regal, lucha, and Japan. But some say they were self-taught and took from TV or even video games, in The Young Bucks and Kenny Omega's cases, specifically. I imagine some NXT guys must like his stuff if they watched ROH (although I recall many ROH names being mentioned in the same breath as Danielson in the 2000s.) If Bryan stayed with the indys until now, would he be rated like Chris Hero? Because I don't see a "Hero is the GWE" campaign. Is it based on his WWE run also? Was it that better than Brock, Cena, or Punk's? Are both runs needed? Best of the modern era? Maybe...Does not AJ Styles have the better body of work? Best of all time? Hmm...I'd feel that any Top 100 which ranks him #1 is showing an era bias, as all lists do. That's why I prefer multiple lists based on country, gender, decade or eras, i.e. apples vs apples, not apples vs oranges.

I thought it was amusing how Cody did not even ATTEMPT to try lucha libre. Omega and YB just need masks. I mean...is their style that different? Rhetorical, but just saying...

I always wanted to see this even though Meltzer ripped this tournament in the newsletter at the time. Funk and Orton are like dopplegangers at this time, so I really was excited for this; no wonder it finished as a draw (lame coinflip after the bell). If I may nitpick, usually in heel vs heel, the fans will get behind one but these two guys kept selling as heels and the fans didn't choose a side. Front row looked bored because of the dynamic or maybe the lackluster torny. Excellent technical match which progressed into a brawl. Just the characters didn't work for me. Problem is Orton couldn't be a face if he wanted to and 1983 Funk is top heel in the U.S.

Jumbo is defending his championship in 2/3 falls vs pre-NWA champion Ric Flair. Dick Murdoch is Flair's cornerman. Fall 1 was a surprisingly well-paced round with varied offense with realistic submission holds. The 1st fall is technical, longest, and 50/50, i.e an actual legit wrestling match. I could tell both men had unbelievable cardio and everything was nice and snug, if not stiff. Ric and Jumbo are working their bodies and have good matwork to see who will get the advantage. Jumbo wins the 1st after reversing an atomic drop in 14:39, so is sitting pretty. However, Fall 2 had Ric unload on the leg and was fantastic on offense to wear it down. This is basically Ric's ideal strategy to win matches at this time. I was really into the match. He won with the Figure Four Leglock in 8:49. Finally, Fall 3 had Ric continue to get that leg again but Jumbo rolled him up with a shock small package (near the ropes, so it fell flat a little) in 2:59. There's nothing to rip apart in this match- it felt like a real bout with two no-nonsense competitors. Ric's selling and bumping contrasts Jumbo's seriousness. There is no doubt who had charisma here. No highspots, blood, title change, Ric title defense in this one, and not memorable finish/result so I guess it's forgotten. Recommended if you want to see a very solid wrestling match.

The build and atmosphere were intense, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, with two in-ring generals and Top 100 wrestlers still in their primes like Curt and Jerry, I had HIGH expectations which were not satisfied. Hennig wasn't good on offense. His talents are bumps, selling, and dropkicks. But his role was to lay in the heat here. So what does he do? A long WAIST LOCK? Other submissions and punches were just did not work for me. The King had to juice and give him something to work with, and it was fine after that. However the finish came out of nowhere and I didn't see why Curt would have been KO'ed. Referee Fargo was distracting and biased, reminded me of Kiniski at Starrcade 83. The fans loved it, and so did Jerry. But I did not. Didn't help that the Memphis film footage was bad as usual. Was it a bad match? No. But definitely not a classic. Not sure why, either, considering. Kinda makes me wonder if people who rank Lawler so high in their Top 100s/Top 10 are overlooking some things.

It's amazing how good Bock was, considering he was in the WWF in an on-wrestling role 5 months later. Curt is also technically sound. Yeah, the bad booking takes away from this match. The fans of the dying AWA were rowdy throughout with the "Boring!" chants for a face vs face match. "Boring" chants never had any influence on Bock in his career, though (see his Battle of the Belts undercard match in Florida). That said, the empty seats and bad fans took away from the hard work in this match. Very few men in the WWF could have equaled this match- again amazing considering Bock was 52.

Yes, there was great continuity through the falls. Psychology was great. Slater and Nick showed some great matwork in the first fall, and the next two had roughhousing. Slater definitely is an adopted Funk brother. However I find him miscast as a technical babyface. As a face, I'd rather him stick to brawling. I was disappointed- I do not feel this was an epic bout- it could have been much more if Slater was built as a serious challenger. I felt that JYD was the real challenger for Bock and Slater just filled the gap. Nothing wrong with the match I guess- just didn't feel it with the first fall being too technical and knowing Dick and no chance to win. However I know see the Houston pattern for 2/3 fall matches so I should have expected it to go that way.

No, I could never figure out Harley's tattoos. They are peacocks and/or birds of paradise. I agree. Baba's headlocks hurt me more than Harley. I was so dulled out that I was bored with the headscissors too. But considering the time limit draw finish, I guess they had to fill time. A real shame because there are many highspots in this match. Race impressed me. Lots of blood and sweat in this match. Would have been a perfect iconic brawl if it was the last 10 minutes. But the first 20? Realistic, yes, but too dependent on the time and place to be universally appreciated. There were some good spots in those 20, but the matched needed to be compressed. But the whole idea was a draw.

I'm with Matt D- this was a perfect match. All the restholds were gritty and logical, never boring- and believe me restholds usually put me to sleep. I was engrossed genuinely and was rooting for Tito to make the impossible comeback, even though I love Nick in real life. Every move, every hold, every fall- had meaning. Pure psychology and melodrama. There was class warfare played out in the ring as well as the high class, refined, experienced, haughty, condescending, and respected Anglo champion lost to the family-orientated young Mexican who had earned his trophy by hard work. I can't say enough about all of Nick's excellent scientific moves as a heel, but they were foiled by Tito so Nick had to start getting rough and cheat. Tito- only six years in- was already a true pro babyface. Fans completely popped for the ending. This is yet another reason why Meltzer's star rating system is ridiculous. Dave himself has said that we are in a Golden Age now because there has never been more 5-6 star matches in the history of the biz, yet his newsletter wasn't even around at this time.

I was a little skeptical heading into this match because some of Dusty in Japan is sometimes boring due to his restholds and trying to be "scientific". But I was very intrigued since this is before Race's second World Championship and before Rhodes' first. I was surprised the only boring spots are his headlocks in this one. The rest of the match (which is to say 95% of it) is very well done. It is a 50/50 match for the most part with a clean finish (welcome to Japan). I would say this was felt more than a basic match because of the outside chair brawl, constant back-and-forth action, great offense by Harley, and Dusty using his charisma to move the fans. Yes, it was fundamentally sound and could be used to train workers. There's actually a lot going on in this match IMHO. Feels realistic. Oh, and only 10 minutes? Wow, they really maxed out their TV time efficiently. The only thing missing is that because this was a tournament match in Japan, there was no real U.S. heat/feud/championships in this match between these two rivals. But in many ways, because it feels like a match in a vacuum outside of the U.S., it answers the kayfabe nerd question of who the better wrestler was: Harley Race. Yes, I liked this match and minus the headlock it could easily be done today in AEW.

This would have been somewhat of a Dream Match in the 1970s if we had double world champs vs tag team champs. In 1984, Bobby Heenan is managing Bockwinkel and Race vs his old team- the babyface Blackjacks (Mulligan and Lanza). Mulligan gets the shine to start but had to earn it from the heels. As soon as he tags out to Lanza, the villains put the heat on him and cut the ring off. So immediately I knew this would be a hot tag match- the only question is what happens when Lanza finally makes it. But before then, we are treated to a good, old fashioned beat down by Nick and Harley. Both men are underrated tag team experts, so the two of them destroy Lanza- who I always considered the way inferior Blackjack anyway. Nick used finance and Harley used brawn. Great offense and strategy to keep Lanza in the corner and the ref distracted. Nice, long heat sequence to build up that pressure for the hot tag. Hope spot occurred when Lanza ducked, so Harley hit Nick off the apron and finally made the hot tag. Blackjack Mulligan was on fire but after besting Nick, the momentum kinda went back to 50/50 when Race was tagged in. After restarting the momentum, Mulligan caught Race's falling headbutt with the face claw but he eventually escaped. Chaos ensued and there was a donnybrook. The Blackjacks accidentally mistimed so were peeking over their shoulders to pull off a double throw across the ring so Race and Bockwinkel collide. But they were winning and the fans were happy. Finish came when Heenan grabbed Lanza's ankles by the ropes while Lanza was suplexing Nick in from the apron, similar to the famous Rick Rude-Ultimate Warrior WrestleMania I-C title win. Blackjacks went after Heenan and all three heels got out of dodge, so the fans were still happy, but obviously the heels won. Conclusion: The 13+ minute match had a lot of action and surprises. Harley and Nick were still fantastic in 1984 but the Blackjacks seemed long in the tooth. Mulligan was mostly punching at this point but had a huge unstoppable babyface presence, similar to 1980s Jim Duggan. Harley and Nick could have been in their with anyone- they carried the match and used their cleverness like how younger fans remember Anderson + Blanchard. Blackjacks work better as heels, and the match kinda lost momentum after the hot tag did not result in immediate babyface win. So any experienced fan ought to have seen the ending coming with the heels going over or maybe a double DQ.

As far as kayfabe storytelling goes, this was a perfect traveling heel NWA title defense, and because Harley won 2 falls he lost no heat even though Wahoo was shown to be the "better man". 1st fall: A stiff wrestling match where Wahoo was in control. Lots of shine. He may have been out for revenge, but seemed to wrestle scientifically, significantly that he wanted the title more than revenge. Since Wahoo works off multiple headlock sequences, the action comes to a halt at times (at least Harley is moving his legs), but the buildup and payoff will eventually be there. Harley is great a selling, bumping, and making Wahoo look strong, not that Wahoo needs any help in that department. It's not the vertical suplex which truly did in Wahoo, it's the atomic drop which bounces Wahoo's head into the middle turnbuckle, then the knee drop to the head, and THEN suplex for the three. A long 13 minutes, but it's 1978 when wrestling was real. Wahoo needs a two fall comeback so the tension is there. 2nd fall: Please note that Wahoo kicked out on ONE for Race's piledriver. Things pick up here, with both men showing more offense, although Harley works off the front facelock a bit long. Wahoo had more varied offense in 1978 than 1985, so I could only imagine what he was like n his true younger days. Action spills outside a little bit. Wahoo's finisher is a weird falling elbow to the face. The weirder thing is that he winds up spamming it in the third fall to no avail. I agree- old school 2/3 falls were always odd to me in terms of how they end falls. At least we didn't get the infamously lame DQs or double countouts here. 3rd fall: This is now the match everyone expected to see. Double juice. Wild brawl. Action. Near counts. Finish kinda botched as it was hard to see Race pull the tights to hold three (1+2 were legal). If he did it well, it could hardly be seen on camera. Conclusion: entertaining match outside of the restholds (so felt a little longer than 30 minutes- which is a great time allotment). Perfect psychology in terms of storytelling for the NWA champ vs local hero. Both roles played to a tee. Character work A+. Both men gave it their all and paced it to end in a chaotic crescendo. Lots of varied offense and violence. Both men looked super tough and realistic. Fans enjoyed it, as did I decades later in the future. God bless Harley Race and Wahoo McDaniel.

To me the sad part about the Flair-Reed Mid-South series is that I JUST them, but couldn't tell you if it was the long one or the short one, or if I actually saw both. LOL I saw the buildup on TV and PWI really put over Reed at the time for this feud...BUT Absolutely no chemistry. You know it's bad when Ric is calling it, has classics with guys with no skill, but this series just stinks. I keep hearing Butch Reed is a hidden gem and a good worker, but he hardly gets off his feet and shows movement, like, say, Ron Simmons, who is more stiff and sloppy, but still more mobile. I would have thought with this being an NWA World Title shot in 1985, when both men were still in their peaks, that I would have been pleasantly surprised, like when I watch a Dick Slater or Murdoch from the same time period and place. Really not sure why one would rate this as good or great, which is what 3.5 to 4 means.

He got de-pushed years ago because of his concussions and his stand up comedy hobby. He was hot for a year or so- when he was champ. Reminded me of Mr. Perfect with the bumping and blond perm. He's always enthusiastic but he's a JTTS. I stopped getting invested in him once I realized he was capped to be a mid-carder, during The Authority storyline. I stopped defending him after I saw him act loose on Total Divas. It is a complete joke they brought him back in 2019. His matches with Kofi have been boring anyway. I don't blame him as much as you do, I guess. After Moxley's podcasts, it is confirmed these guys have no say or choice in what they do in the WWE.

Hi Johnny Sorrow, I love your podcasts. And you and I probably on the same page when it comes to unfair police stops and how People of Color are treated differently in the criminal justice system. The media tends to blow up when celebs get into (relatively) "minor" traffic incidents. I say "minor" because in Florida, most people will be fined heavily, lose their license for a while (Uber time), insurance gets hiked, and they be forced to give piss tests and be forced to take classes. But of course, innocent people die or get hurt from DUI every day. FYI one of the articles said this: "This is Jimmy Uso’s 3rd arrest for DUI, his other two having been in 2011 and 2013. Law enforcement has stated that Uso was swerving his vehicle and smelt of alcohol when he was pulled over. He is alleged to have refused a DUI test." So that wasn't even about the earlier disorderly conduct charge with his wife and they did not confuse him with Josh, who was arrested in 2018 in Texas. But yes, most headlines acted like this was Jimmy's 2nd time this year. My point from before basically is that Jon Fatu is part of an old school wrestling family where this behavior is normalized and downplayed by them because they are rasslers- some of them have gotten into trouble in Pensacola and nearby areas before (not so good neighborhood BTW). From bar room brawls to DUI to yelling at cops...I've seen reports and heard stories about that giant wrestling family. Yes, fans love the stories that have come out. My other point with rehab is that Vince already has the drug program and it is good PR to ask people to sign up for it. Heck, maybe it would actually work or help a little bit- even if it is so boring that Uso would get scared straight. LOL So if Hardy and the Usos keep having run-ins with the law for alcohol-related charges, it would be wise for WWE to suggest it, or even offer legal advice or life coaching. You know, like don't drink and drive, how to drive in one lane (the right way), how refusing to take a roadside test will be used against you, and not to sleep in stairwells in a drunken stupor? As it stands now, not only did WWE wash their hands, but so will Uso (based on him saying he did nothing wrong previously). PR-wise it appears they don't take DUI seriously. They take domestic abuse allegations seriously. They take racism seriously nowadays (Hulk was excommunicated for a while). Lars Sullivan got fined for exercising his freedom of speech from ancient forum posts. So modern WWE does act sometimes. A drunk Alicia Foxx apparently is retired now, after the Arn Anderson situation. I don't have an axe to grind or hill to die on with this. But to me, it's embarrassing and disappointing for the Uso. I'm not into punishments but I am into getting people help, but if it doesn't work, it's on them. But yes, I guess legally WWE has no obligation to do anything, especially since Uso is an independent contractor. Morally, it's hypocritical to discipline someone when the CEO himself did much harder drugs and crimes back in the day (with the whole roster). But the Usos actually got awarded the tag titles for last time's traffic infraction. And don't they have new contracts anyway? No wonder CM Punk triggered when Vince and Trips told him to piss in a cup. Anyway...

I was disappointed with this arrest. Had to double check if it was the same Uso twin. What was frustrating is that he didn't take any responsibility about the last time's incident (he and his wife blamed the cop), so I am waiting for this time's excuse. It should be noted he's not the first in his large wrestling family to get into trouble with the police in Florida, so it may be something he is a magnet for.... WWE should put him in alcohol rehab instead of giving him tag titles.

Just want to say that I watched this late night as a kid with family members. One was a certifiable genius- got all the Chemistry GRE questions right, math, physics, economics, etc. rich pharmacist. He really thought WWF was silly entertainment and saw right through Hogan's facial expressions and McMahon acting like Howard Kossel. He knew it was 100% fake since the wrestlers couldn't take punches, flying elbow smashes, or Hulk Up like that in real life. He laughed at Funk being called the number one contender, and yes, considered him to be a complete idiot, Jingus. :-) He considered it an oversell, although he did not use the word, obviously. He laughed out loud- he wasn't spiteful but wondered why I watched. I found out years later listening to Larry Matysik on 57Gold that Sam Mushnick and the other NWA head honchos also though Funk was a little too comical. It is ironic that the melodramatic sellers and bumpers like Funk, Flair, Murdoch, Hennig, et al are considered all time great workers since the 1980s without considering that criticism- which I believe to be valid if one values "realism". Again, I'm not saying they are wrong, but when Jim Cornette lashes into modern workers, I always remember that Thesz and the St. Louis crowd had problems with anyone who didn't act "realistic". Even Heenan was not welcomed as a manager in St. Louis, and Race was considered chaotic, violent, and at times unprofessional according to Larry. In other words, Jim Cornette and his 1980s act would be too phony for Mushnick and friends. Jim and DAVE kinda ignore that. Again- not taking anything away from Funk- just want to state the other side for a fuller picture.

Exactly...makes no sense to an outsider. Also got "why do people like to watch wrestling?" yesterday while I was watching Kamala + Missing Link vs Andre and Duggan.

"That table/chair didn't hurt, right?"

Turned out it was ROH's demise.

"Art" has many definitions and spinoffs. I could see someone saying pro wrestling is not an "art form" if they feel it is low brow entertainment. For example, I consider a Michael Bay or most Marvel movies (trigger warning) to be "entertainment" as opposed to art. Like pr0n. IMHO, art ought to tell us something about ourselves or society that we may not necessarily want to see or hear. It ought to hold its content up like a mirror to reflect warts, ways to improve, use symbolism, trigger deep thoughts, etc. On the other side of the coin, art is also beauty, i.e. classical music and paintings. But generally speaking, creating forms for mass appeal commercial profit usually is entertainment (Star Wars/Hollywood in general). It should be noted Stan Lee loved when Marvel comic books were considered "pop art" in the 1960s, and thus was accepted and seen as hip. However, he and his generation always perceived comic books as shameful- just a way to make a living- not true art at all. The "artists" were seen as draftsmen and laborers. Jack Kirby was not appreciated until much later. "Pop art Marvel" went out of vogue like a fad until mid-1980s when Alan Moore and Frank Miller established that comics were no longer for kids. Neil Gaiman was the cherry on top with Sandman in the late 1980s/early 1990s. Moore considers his work to be art, because he pushed the medium to new heights and had meaning and messages, but saw every comic book adapted movie as empty unoriginal entertainment. There is no doubt that wrestling is a craft; after all it is taught like a guild and some workers are better than others, and the basics and fundamentals are the most important. Wrestlers can craft matches, gimmicks, and storylines. It is definitely a for-profit entertainment. The messages are base and usually appeal to the lowest common denominator. At best wrestling tells stories, usually adapted from tropes, like beast slayer, jealousy, to be the best, betrayal, revenge, underdog etc. At worst, it is exploitative, ignorant, savage, crass, racist, sexist, and dumbed down for Homer Simpson. Does sometimes telling stories using pantomime make it art? Is pretending to have a competitive fight art? Especially when it is done at the expense of the money in your checking account? Does that the fact that W. Ospreay believes he is a performance artist make it art? Was Damien Sandow a performance artist with his comedy routines? How about The Librarians from AEW? Is pro wrestling a deep, universal, beautiful, or telling form of art? I doubt Vince McMahon views it as such. He created his own personal sandbox to have fun in and make money. Even when he made the leap to MTV and NBC in 1985, it was pitched as entertainment. Andy Warhol, in his diary, liked Dusty Rhodes and Wrestlemania I. An intelligent artist such as himself probably thought there was something more to wrestling- how they could manipulate the emotions of so many with over the top interviews and fake punches. But I'm sure Brock doesn't see it as art. Moxley does, which is why they miscommunicated at Wrestlemania. Music is art, yet not all forms of music are art. There is a difference between 2019 pop music and Mozart. Where does wrestling fit on the spectrum? Video games were never respected but now they are, yet does it change the truth that video games are entertainment and not art? I don't feel there is a clear answer. Is it even a binary question? "Back in the day" the workers and promoters themselves did not perceive wrestling as art. It was a way to make money by tricking audiences, just like the old comic book creators and publishers felt they were in a factory making dumb kiddie stories, not creating serious, timeless works of art which would be analyzed decades later. I am not sure if Kenny Omega's opinion could change the reality of wrestling being anything other than fun entertainment.