War is Raw

Thanks for seeing my overall point, unlike GSR. Hyperbole goes over everyone's heads. Makes sense GSR would defend another literalist like Dave. See ya around.

It's kinda funny to me how lots of people are still conditioned (no offense meant) that TK will try to get out of the Mox vs Omega finish or thinking that it being "just" a TV match means it will be a screwjob. Cody and Tony have said that Dynamite is the can't miss place for AEW, and even PPVs are inferior to it. Over a year and Tony hasn't pulled DQs or no-contests like what WWE/WCW did to us for decades. Heck, even the cherished Heck, if this was WWE this title match would come on at 10:55PM EST on RAW. For the record, I think it will be a clean win, but if they have an "out" to extend the feud, it will be about the mysterious attacker. Maybe he distracts Mox. And, no I wouldn't mind a 60 minute draw if the go that route.

It's the honor system with Dave, yet he doesn't see it like that. Anyone who has a ballot can self-identity as an expert in any given category he (yes, 99% of the voters are men) chooses. Not sure why so many people push back on any criticism of his HOF procedures. People have been attacking the Baseball HOF's methods since inception. We all want the best people nominated, and a fair system.

(Just want to add that Japan has a notoriously poor box office in general. Godzilla kept it alive in the 20th century, due to kids demanding to see him. Japanese would rather see anime, K-drama, or American blockbusters than a historical figure wrestling movie. Riki bombing isn't evidence by itself.) But yes, Jackie Robinson is taught in schools, had a successful movie, and is name-dropped by MLB. BTW, he has a 85% U.S. recognizability rating. Hulk Hogan had 93% of 1652 Americans recognize him. Riki is not seen this way in 2020 Japan. The 1960s? Yes. Dave always had a fetish about Inoki in Japan, Colon in Puerto Rico, the Von Erichs in Dallas, The Funks in Amarillo, Lawler in Memphis, Flair in Charlotte ("he could run for mayor" etc. Small sample with me, I concede, but when I went to those places, I asked a banker, driver, hotel worker, etc if they heard of those wrestlers who Dave pitches as "icons" in the region. I NEVER got a hit. Nor did I get a hit for Bruno Sammartino anywhere but NY. I never even got a hit for former Yankees pitcher Chien-Ming Wang in Taiwan, although the commentators said in 2008 he was worshipped there and allegedly a statue was built for him. I did get hits for baseball player Ichiro in Japan. In 2016 random people in Edmonton knew who Bret Hart was, and one even added, "And Chris Jericho". Didn't feel comfortable chit-chatting about Benoit. And you can forget about the joshi scene in Japan. It basically lost an entire generation (or two) of fans, and is still in the dark ages. That said, I agree with Dave that one time (I believe it was the 2019 G-1) when he said pro wrestling is a non-mainstream niche in Japan at the moment. Never lose sight of that, because it is true for wrestling as a whole. Now...any Mexicans want to smarten us up and prove Dave wrong by saying no one knows who El Santo is, and how lucha libre is a subculture, and not a cultural institution which draws better than WWE relative to its pop?

Ref botched pin at end.

Should be noted Medico Asesino, Karloff Lagarde, Dan Koloff were not even on this site's Top 557 Master List for the Greatest Wrestler Ever project. That means we have no footage and they weren't even big enough to consider even as a historical curiosity. But, now, years later, thanks to intrepid historians WON has found hidden gems. Of course, they are at the expense of some more recognized wrestlers. It's intellectual elitism. WON's nomination process has been hijacked by a handful of good intentioned and knowledgeable historians (or hobbyists) on WrestingClassics and Dave's board. But hijacked nonetheless. Even Mike Tenay confronted Dave about putting Omega on the Japanese section of the ballot, not the US modern one. Based on raw totals, he would not have had the 60%, so IMHO he was backdoored in- enabled by Dave. Yeah, so, sorry, but I'm that person who is going to criticize Dave's HOF. There are too many names on there and arguments are made for only a few of the candidates. Like as much as I liked him, why is Kamala even on the list of nominees? And are the inclusions of JYD, Kevin Nash, and The Ultimate Warrior to make up for Dave making fun of them when they were active?

I agree...it is like they made Jade cut a looong bad promo on purpose (or set her up like a rib) just to have Brandi "break the fourth wall" and call her out on it. Also felt like an ECW angle where an outsider is depicted as not having any promo skills or other ability and the fans want 911 to come out for the chokeslam. At least in ECW it would have been a one-shot. Social media has been complaining about Shida's lack of angles and the women's division in general. So what does TK give us? A WCW Nitro angle with a basketball player involving Brandi and a baseball player's athletic wife. Brandy's promo had passion and emotion. But, yes, her multiple personalities make my head hurt. Like you, I just don't feel comfortable discussing the "racial code switching". For example, she can get away with it. I find it amazing internet darling Eddie Kingston (Irish and Puerto Rican) can get away with what PN News, OG-13, and Johnny B Badd did.

There is no doubt when it is their time at Cauliflower Alley or the Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame (or their future replacements) that The Young Bucks will be considered the next step in the natural evolution of tag team wrestling (Rock N Roll Express-->Rockers-->Hardys-->Young Bucks). FTR vs TYB was comparable to Rockers vs Brain Busters. Traditional rasslin' like NWA Powerrr (and truthfully how NXT was presented before USA) are also niches, not solutions to "fix" wrestling. Marvel/Disney can "fix" it all right, by mainstreaming it for kids on NBC prime time and get 5 million viewers. Will everyone be happy then? Of course not.

All I can say is that when Dave says "it's the voters' decision, not his" when he responds to people like Ole Anderson criticizing "his" WON HOF, Dave leaves out how influential he is. It's even in WON's article: "A fifth entry, early 20th century wrestler Dan Koloff, was also inducted based on Dave Meltzer’s historical analysis and research." In other words, Dave and the historians make a case for the voters and they sway votes. It doesn't happen all the time (Dave seemed big on Randy Orton last year more than voters) but it surely happens for obscure names and his vote of no-confidence for people like Moolah, Slaughter, the Andersons, et al.

Had to respond to this from Nominees, and disagree years later, for future generations: Watch Lanny's MSG run in 1985. He seems like a time travelling AEW wrestler who transported back into time. His matches with Terry Funk and next month with Iron Mike Sharpe in August are absolutely amazing. I'm sure I will see more hidden gems from him. Lanny was surely someone who was underpushed, considering he got decent pops and kept fans engaged even as a perennial jobber. He was very aggressive in the Iron Mike bout and pulled out lots of exciting high flying moves (did not do the moonsault). Considering how WWF had one of the worse workrates in the country, Lanny really stood out on house shows, along with the Bulldogs- outperforming the lazy veterans.

I have been binging JWA/AJPW from the beginning, watching the famous names. I could not believe the level of heat for this match. Holy cow, I have never heard Japanese fans pop for submission holds, counters, and looks.

How about Gorilla Monsoon, the wrestler? I just saw Gorilla Monsoon's All Japan run so I believe I've seen all of Gorilla that's out there. Still less than 1% of his career, of course. In his prime (1960s): He oozed personality and charisma- a perfect for WWWF. His style wasn't a realistic amateur wrestler or a brawler. He was like an intelligent monster, a bit hard to label. He was unique. Was not sadistic, but was tough. He took bumps and sold as a big man and was very mobile. His quickness made him for exciting to me compared to, say, Giant Baba who usually waited until the climax or 3rd fall to start showing running the ropes and doing his "highspots". You can see he had "it" even as he became an occasional wrestler in the 1970s. Later day counterparts of Gorilla would be a more logical and professional version of 1980s Bigelow, without the aerial moveset. Maybe a taller version than Jerry Blackwell. Definitely needs to be in "greatest big man" discussions, even if he's a victim of lack of footage.

Just reading this years later, but most GWE voters didn't value historical significance, drawing power, star power, importance outside of wrestling, name recognition, or pushes: what most others lists value to be "great". Voters- or at least the ones with platforms- valued psychology, workrate, character, storytelling, and Japanese, Mexican, and British stars. GWE relied on footage in circulation. At least that SI list rcognized Golden Age stars and didn't try to pimp obscure "hidden gems" like Virus.

Considering what has been "proven" by the elites scholars influencers on this board, I'd say Bruiser Brody, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, KO, Seth Rollins, Roddy Piper, Dusty Rhodes, Bob Backlund, and Shawn Michaels are the best of the "worst".

Yes, this was when WWE wanted Wrestlemania would be a 3-way with RR vs Becky vs Charlotte. So Asuka- who had beaten Becky clean at the 2019 Royal Rumble for the SD title- was kept out of that main event scene so she could defend her SD title against that women's division. But she dropped the title so Charlotte could have gold in the 3-Way. Asuka was also cancelled from Wrestlemania 35. Then Kairi was called up from NXT in April to be paired with Asuka. WWE had problems figuring out how to get them to speak and assigned Paige. But they had no plans beyond that any real storylines besides being challengers for the Iconics on a Japanese tour. So they took a hiatus and came back as heels, although no one really boos them. Of course things have a way of working out in the end (Asuka is champ since Becky left.) But yeah, Vince sees Asuka and Kairi as tough sells, so the writers had to scramble to help them and HHH had to stick his neck out to push them, especially considering Vince's views on Asian women:

Today I learned Scott Keith is successful and has presence. I guess he never went away or he had adapted to Web 2.0 years ago. Just checked out the Blog of Doom and the reader interaction kills most of the others forums I visit, including PWO. The latest post has over 500 comments so far. Latest Observer rewind post has over 120. Makes money from Patreon and Amazon. I guess we all have our bubbles and in my podcasts and forums, Keith isn't mentioned outside of this thread.

Paige said Asuka came up with the gimmick. Asuka suggested "The Kabuki Girls" and Paige suggested "The Kabuki Warriors". At the time "creative had nothing" for Asuka and Sane so Asuka came up with new gimmick to get booked. Asuka said her inspiration was The Crush Girls (may have been mistranslated) but it's really Bull Nakano and Dump Matsumoto's tag gimmick when they were young. There is nothing stereotypical or racist about Bull and Dump. Most of the time it's viewed as "not racist" if the talent came up with, or enjoys, it. Eddie Guerrero defended his WWE heel gimmick, and said it was based on real guys he knew in his neighborhood. Cryme Tyme... 100% sure Asuka and Kairi don't see any offense to it. Asuka was criticized about the language barrier and now speaks her native tongue. Old guys like Lawler and Corny see that as getting heat. Maybe a random casual fan tuning in thinks it's a step backwards. But fans love her and she can't be a heel no matter what. I guess one could argue (not me) if it is a foreign heel gimmick, and if it had a place in modern wrestling, but the women never thought of that because it's normal to them. I recall fans online not liking the Rusev vs USA angle up until Cena beat him where fans sympathized with him.

Wow, what synchronicity that you have that mag! It looks like it was our destiny to talk about this. hahah

No problem. Glad you brought this topic up. I have attached two covers, including the award issue. Possible smoking gun: if they are photos from the actual match (as opposed to stock photos from the St. Louis, Florida, GA, etc.), it is NOT the AJPW match which one MOTY (compare the color of the tights, ring ropes, and darkened crowd to the AJPW TV video). There are no other AJPW matches which won MOTY back then in Apter mags, which may be another clue that the award was for one of the three Kiel matches- certainly endorsed by the NWA. We probably weren't supposed to know Dory fought Jack in Japan in the States anyway. If anyone has these mags the answer lies within...

Even Crimson Mask and some of the other Wrestlingclassics curmudgeons said it was entertaining. AEW is the wave of the future and you and Jim Cornette are on the wrong side of history. Just a fact, not a condemnation.

I avoided TNA, only caught a few episodes here and there, maybe 2 PPVs. But lately I have been watching the TNA Knockouts for the first time and saw that Gail Kim is light years ahead of any woman in WWE during that time period. Awesome Kong, too, and some other women were prolly better than most of AEW's current roster and would be good hands in WWE or NXT. Obviously a lot were your typical soft pr0n workers, but there were good ones. TNA deserves credit for have the women's revolution years before WWE. Just sayin'.

Great topic. I noticed that Andre error, so glad you fixed it. Did some research but have no solids. My 1998 PWI Almanac doesn't mention The Wrestler as having those awards. It lists the following for the older awards, so we'd need copies of these to verify: I checked Wrestling at the Chase episodes to see if the Japanese Funk vs Brisco match was a replay, but they only had (or showed clips of) Baba vs Brisco on St. Louis TV. In Larry Matysik's book on St. Louis matches, he lists how Sam Muchnick booked Brisco and Funk's feud from 1971-1978. He lists three EPIC and publicized matches for Funk vs Brisco in 1974 at the Kiel: 4-19, 6-14, and 11-15. He rates them as high as he can. No mention of the Japanese match as being part of the storyline or as a footnote (granted the circumstance of that match were different). Larry obviously knew about it and did PR for the NWA, but makes me think it was not publicized or seen in the U.S. It was not mentioned in Terry Justice's 1974 The Book of the Year newsletter. Thus, I cannot come to a conclusion if it a Wiki retcon based on the AJPW video coming up on search engines, unless Funk or Brisco told Larry, Sam, or Stanley Weston writers that they had the best match of all time in Japan when they got back home. Otherwise it may have been a Kiel match suggested by Larry to the magazine. March 17, 1975 for Bruno vs Arion actually sounds correct. The NY Daily News and The NY Post had serious articles saying history was made with 26,000 fans (MSG + Felt Forum) with that match, i.e. the other matches didn't have that attendance record. The other matches didn't make the 1975 The Book of the Year. Keep in mind, blow-offs were not necessarily the best matches in the WWWF. Many times the real drama occurred in the first match (or if there was was a trilogy, the rematch would be the best one). And if a challenger did not draw the house, he got squashed in one match. This phenomena was also present in Backlund's run and even Hogan's to an extent. However the WWWF blowoffs are the ones that usually made it to tape, and because we have those we think they were perceived as MOTY. But the final bouts were all one-sided with the babyface champ going over. So I could see fans liking the previous bouts better. [Most of Bruno's famous matches that made it to tape are blowoffs or one match squashes, so he just punches and kicks. This creates the perception he wasn't a good technical wrestler.] Believe it or not, the Shea match isn't even mentioned in the 1976 The Book of the Year. It reprints a news article from the 4/26 MSG match in which Hansen won due to "cut over the left eye", which Justice says was really the broken neck. Once again, the theory I just came up with may apply here as well.

Yeah, Koko, I have no idea why this podcast doesn't get buzz. Lots of career overviews and AEW info. I LOVED the Dustin Rhodes episode. Taz, Billy Gunn, and Cody were great. Tony Khan- nothing new, but OK. Moxley was awkward. Dean Malenko still isn't good on the mic. Brandi was skippable. Jim Ross and The Young Bucks were just selling their books. I like Aubrey better as a ref than podcaster.

This was the first empty arena Dynamite to hold my attention from beginning to end. I even watched the big man squashes. I have emotional investments in the characters and the work is good. What more could I ask for? I guess I didn't like the actual pin by Cody- it felt botched, like the momentum was forced. But I understand the overall story, so I gave it a pass. I like Brandy now and even Dr. Britt Baker heeling it up. Havoc has been good in 2020. That tag match reminded me of a good ECW brawl. Wardlow has a great look for TV. Gotta have someone that looks like him in a league where many workers don't look larger than life, even if he looks like a CAW, he really stands out. I will support whatever Mr. Brodie Lee does. His Vince satires make me feel high for a little bit even though the world is crumbling due to COVID. Dustin once again was fantastic. I can't say enough about him and his career. I hope he ranks high if there is another GWE poll. I have appreciated Lance Archer since 2018.

NXT has always been an illusion, with contradictions. If we zoom out, it was always a reality bender (even leaving out the original reality-show game show prototype). I will stick to the present tense, although the past tense may be appropriate. -Many fans hate Vince and the bad programming on RAW/Smackdown, so embrace a short weekly show with excellent Takeovers, i.e. "real wrestling". In doing so, they forget they are still supporting The Evil Empire. -Fans think it a draw based on Takeover attendance, but NXT just piggybacks the main PPVs. It is unable to draw on its own. Indie promotions can outdraw it. -Old school fans love the "NWA"-feel, yet gloss over the lack of realism with selling and the offensive psychology of everyone aping Shawn Michaels' "every match must steal the show" mentality. -NXT is a subsided brand. Having the "zeitgeist" has never translated into ratings, tickets sold, merch, or anything financial. It was never fair to give HHH credit for NXT's "success". -For the long time loyalists, things have changed as NXT has morphed into a league full of in-prime indie workers instead of a true development "league". Because of the Wednesday Night War, critics don't have much patience to see green workers learn on the job. In fairness, HHH's vision has always been different than Vince's, and Vince is the boss. That said, I do not trust HHH's creatively, business-wise (why should we?), or ethically. I wish people would stop repeating the meme of "When Vince dies, HHH will make WWE good again." It's over for WWE creative on all of its brands. Been that way for some time. It's OK. We have many more options and archives. We don't get paid to fix their mistakes.