Dav'oh

I don't think this project would get very far if it was: Who Would Jesus Vote For?

Who "produced" the WrestleMania matches (stolen straight from WhatCulture): "Here's the near-complete list of WrestleMania 37 producers:- Night One Bobby Lashley vs. Drew McIntyre: Jason Jordan and Jamie Noble Tag Team Turmoil: TJ Wilson and Pat Buck Cesaro vs. Seth Rollins: Shane Helms Omos and AJ Styles vs. The New Day: Chris Park Braun Strowman vs. Shane McMahon: Michael Hayes Bad Bunny and Damian Priest vs. John Morrison and The Miz: Adam Pearce Bianca Belair vs. Sasha Banks: TJ Wilson Night Two Randy Orton vs. The Fiend: Jamie Noble Nia Jax and Shayna Baszler vs. Natalya and Tamina: TJ Wilson and Pat Buck Riddle vs. Sheamus: Chris Park Apollo Crews vs. Big E: Jason Jordan Rhea Ripley vs. Asuka: TJ Wilson Edge vs. Daniel Bryan vs. Roman Reigns: Michael Hayes"

Context. The two main guys mentioned are Lawler and Benoit. The context of the Benoit tragedy is completely different to a lifetime of predatory sexual behaviour towards under-aged girls (apparently Dundee was as bad, if not worse, than Lawler). I see Benoit's situation as an extraordinary set of circumstances and an utter tragedy for all involved. Lawler and the Speaking Out shitcunts are a different story.

Killer Kowalski Possibly the greatest heel of all-time who could also work face depending on the opponent. Career that stretched across four decades from 1947 to 1977, main-eventing all over the world. Was the number one heel wherever he was and drew huge money with everyone he performed with, and he faced them all, and beat most of them - Rogers, Watson, O'Connor, Carpentier, Sammartino et al. One of the fittest wrestlers of all-time, (after an hour broadway with Bruno, made it back to the dressing room first and although knackered, made sure he was doing push-ups when Bruno walked in) and incredibly strong. Helped launch Andre in the States and Baba in Japan, as well as making Bruno look a million bucks. Trained Triple H, Eddie Edwards, Chyna, Kofi, Matt Bloom, Perry Saturn and possibly Sasha Banks, amongst others. I won't single any wrestlers out, but some of the nominees for Greatest Wrestler Ever are fuggen ridiculous. Even without the context that Kowalski hasn't yet been nominated. Matches? Well, if you need matches to consider Kowalski one of the greatest wrestlers of all-time, I'll humour you: vs Hans Schmidt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0z8wWloESE vs Nature Boy Rogers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEva5YFP-H0 vs Antonino Rocca https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g99KvprPGxc Regardless of the quality of the matches available, if you can make a list of the greatest wrestlers of all-time and leave out Killer Fucking Kowalski, you're a better different man than me.

She was great fun. Do we know if she was able to extemporize? Certainly her debut was well-rehearsed, and I have a feeling most if not all of her matches were fully laid out for her, but probably not by her. They were still excellent matches and excellent performances from her, I just wonder how much people here value the ability to improvise, and the dying art of listening to the crowd and responding accordingly? It's something of a hurdle for me, personally, to overcome when considering contemporary candidates - that, and the fact that Ronda and many others never had to do it on a cold night in Stoke (been dying to use that oldie).

thanks mate! I'll try and chuck in more 'crikeys' and the like. I'm up on wrestling-themed hounds (those numbers were how much I won on each, from a dollar win-bet, and then take a dollar off for the ones that lost. It's nearly $100 won from nearly $50 wagered). I'm down when I actually try to pick a winner, so I'm about even, I'd wager (ahem). I learned when I was 11 to only gamble for fun, not to win money (long story). I never bet more than a dollar, even when my mates are throwing around fifties and hundreds. If I'm going to donate proper money, it won't be to a bookie... And I've bet on the Royal Rumble itself and one of the WrestleManias. I don't understand people who think that's ridiculous (and there's plenty of them).

Yes mate. I love dogs and I love wrestling, so it's a natural fit. If only Pedro Morales had followed my lead, he wouldn't have had to pawn the WWWF belt...

Reading up on Jim Barnett, it seems there was a meeting at Andre's ranch in North Carolina in late 1983, where Vincent K, Vincent J, Andre, Barnett, Pat Patterson and "a couple of other men" mapped out 1984 WWF. So if the Younger takes over in June 1982, that's nearly eighteen months later that an ailing (six-or-so months to live) Elder is still around, to whatever degree. (Don't know if answering your own questions is the done thing around here, but I figure someone has to find this interesting.)

As some of you know and none of you care (rightfully so), I've been doing my own GWE - Greyhound / Wrestler Experiment. $1 win bets. Masked Gladiator kicked things off (17/1), and Four Pillars (2/1), We The People (twice, 4/1 and 3/1), Luchador (twice, 4.60 and 2/1), Corazon de Leon (2.50/1), Low Blow (10/1), Bad Bailey (8/1), Arrogant Dusty (9.60/1), Crazy Diva (3.60/1), Miss Kenny (I checked the owners; J. Cornette not amongst them, 5/1) and Rippin Memphis (five on the trot - $4.50, $15.50, $1.90, $1.04, $1.40) round out the winner's circle to date. Oh and Dr. Knuckles at 5/1 (sounded like a wrestling name...). Which easily covered losses on: Flair, Eadie, Rowdy Roddy, Zukhov, Paige, Missing Link, Gino Gambino, Arquette, Evolution, Twisted Bliss, Run Baba Run (twice), Luchador (*they run every week, sometimes twice, can't win 'em all), Masked Gladiator*, Bad Bailey*, Bailey, Big Gordy, his older brother Gordito, Five Star, Razor's Edge, Fear the Spear, She Knows Uno, Gladiator Hulk, Rockstar Orton, Dusty Charms (twice) and Chachi Arcola (). Kenny Sure Can...sure can't. And no way was I touching Fake Fake Fake (hark ptui). If anyone thinks this is not the place for this, please note: To me Pro-Wrestling is levity. Yes I can get fully immersed in matches and no I don't giggle at Burning Hammers. I don't treat wrestling as a joke - I'm somehow, wonderfully, ranked in the (admittedly outdated) Australian Wrestling Directory's Top 200 All-Time list, so pro-wrestling is very much an important part of me. But I'm pushing 48 years old : there's no way I can take this caper too seriously (Choo choo, anyone?). Respect, yes. Actually, there's probably a thread in there: Is Wrestling Meant to be Taken Seriously? Not talking Shibata brainbutting Okada or internal decapitations, talking the umbrella, the notion even. Well, that went in a different direction than I intended, but I'll push submit reply anyway...

Just out of curiosity, as it won't effect my ratings: Only a small percentage of UK and European wrestlers made their way to America, did any of the French catch guys try their luck across the pond? Did many even cross the Channel? What was the average French 50s wrestler's "loop"?

I think heel Andre was the draw at Mania III? Vader vs Sting (Vader vs anyone in WCW) is another guess. I think the answer to your question is an easy "yes", I'm just not the person to give enough examples. Are you considering Superstar Graham a "tweener"?

I'm with you, MoS. I put the timestamp in because I don't feel a lot of love for Big Duthty around these parts. I love that shit, as stoopid and awkward and risible as it is (he's no Fred Astaire; he's not even Fandango), and will probably be the high vote on Dusty in the GWE .

Sucks there's no-one here to share my Sakura Genesis "Holy Goddammed Shit!" reaction....

I've long thought about that. Even nepotism has to be mutually beneficial, especially from a business standpoint. Dominik and Nia are easy to understand, Natty's a "good hand" (my arse), Sasha stands on her own now, but what does Vince get out of paying Jimmy Snuka's daughter a considerable amount of money each year.....I'm sure if the sleaze thread was still going, "Jimmy Snuka told Tamina bedtime stories about murdering Nancy Argentino, that's why she's employed by Vinnie today" would be on there.

Do you not think the days of wrestler-on-fan violence (and fan-on-wrestler violence) are long gone? And I'm not talking, "telling Meng or a Watts employee wrestling's fake in a bar at night", just a simple "shit tatts, 'roidboy" (or "Sabian's a geek"). I just think a) a pro-wrestler's first reaction to copping grief from sek69 or Dav'oh is not violence. I'm pretty sure that's their last resort. Because b) there's too much to lose by punching a person-in-the-street's nose through the back of his skull. If I strutted over to Brock and asked "is that a cock on your chest or are you just happy to see me" (I know, it doesn't quite work...), Brock would point to his wife and laugh, he'd point to my physique and laugh (unfairly, I must say), he'd ignore it and continue ordering his stanazabol, or whatever. He's not wasting his time or energy on a non-starter like me. And if pain (me) persisted, he'd call for security to deal with me. Go for it, I say (if you're that way inclined ).

I love the "you wouldn't say that to Brock's face"-type comment you find on the social medias. Like pro-wrestlers have diplomatic immunity when it comes to assault and battery on the man on the street a third their size. And like Brock's willing to do jail time over some gimp laughing at the phallus on his chest...same for Penelope (although I think El-P's comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek): some wrestling fan calls Sabian a geek (!!!! the ironing is delicious), she's gonna launch into a physical assault? Nah man. She'd say "show me your cock" and the fan would go red in the face and scurry off.

Who has bodyslammed flying head-scissored Andre the Giant? Why, one Dusty Rhodes! Twice! Came across this trying to find an answer for Mad Dog (credit Stephen Gennarelli). 1'48" if you'd like to skip Dusty's prancing:

It's always been worked, is my understanding. There was never a legitimate sport called "Pro Wrestling" that then morphed into what we now know. That it started in carnivals, to whom "on the level" is a foreign phrase, just reinforces the notion. They were there to fleece the local hicks rubes and hayseeds that came to see the travelling show. But I'm sure you know that... We then turn to Wrestling Classics and the evergreen Yohe: "The wrestlers of the era of before 1925 (1918 sounds better), were true wrestlers. Most of them knew the tricks of shooting & could wrestle. The style of pro wrestling was the look of true wrestling. But major pros worked matches, for the most part...Gambling is the turning point in wrestling. When gambling went out of the sport it became fully controlled by promoters. Before then it was just another sport with good and bad. I take newspaper articles 'exposing' wrestling that date back to the 19th century with a grain of salt....(Frank) Gotch would never step in to a ring without knowing the outcome in advance. It could be a shoot or a work, but he'll know...." Matt Farmer chips in with: "Looking back at his (Gotch's) time in the Northwest during the early 1900's it appears to be a work all the way. You can cleary see angles being set in place." Best I could find with a quick look, but I'm sure it's covered in more depth over on Classics.

Does anyone remember the show Raven did with Kayfabe Commentaries, "Raven's Restler Rescue"? Each week he took an indy wrestler and used his genius, his unparalleled mind for this business, to come up with a gimmick for them. Spoiler: Raven is not a genius. His mind for the business is unparalleled, in that you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone with WORSE ideas. It's this show that makes me guffaw at the notion of Scott Levy as some sort cerebral master of this caper. The looks on the aspiring wrestlers' faces when Raven tells them what he's come up with for them....poor kids - they find out they're hooking up with the one and only Raven, psychologist supreme, and he's giving Zach Braff's Dr. Acula gimmick to them. And you can tell they're torn between telling him to get his hand off it, and humouring him (they all humour him). Preview clips are on YouTube, full episodes seem more elusive (think I torrented it years ago).

Rheayou'reStrayan. Wedon'telucidateinOrstrayait'sallonelongword. Stoppausingbetweeneverybloodywordluv. Andwhere's?theinflections?threetimespersentence? Seriously, if Asuka is allowed to speak Japanese to everyone's bewilderment, Rhea and Buddy should be allowed to speak Strine, to everyone's bewilderment.

It's amazing that Heenan (after a fashion) main-evented Wrestlemanias 2 and 3, and The Big Event in Toronto, and semi-mained Mania 1. Some of the biggest and most pivotal events in wrestling history, and the common denominator was the Brain.

Agree completely. I just don't think Vince is necessarily looking for an answer. I think the emperor knows full well he's nude and feels vindicated by Montezuma's ransom-like piles of gold in his money room. This is a successful business model, no? (Insert CM Punk's observation here.) I don't know the nuances but it seems like he's riding a winner.

With much respect, that's still "toeholds and dropkicks", just deeper. It's like the poll is asking us to ignore charisma and character and success for - I'll stay away from 'workrate' - variants of the quoted toeholds and dropkicks analysis? Microscopic is obviously great for those who analyse pro-wrestling matches down to their barest bones - and I thank all who do that, it makes for some great reading - but I don't think many (any?) here need to get out a theodolite and Antikythera to work out what's what and who's who (I understand it can be fun, though). Pro-wrestling is big and bog-simple. Of course there's subtleties and nuance, but I watch from the cheap seats, the way it's designed (IMO). For the record, all my draft names came from the 2016 Poll, so I don't necessarily think my list would feature many if any different names (Missing Link is a greyhound I backed at Darwin recently, not a candidate for GWE), and I try not to insert myself in conversations above my station. It's not a linear list of biggest draws, either. Daniel Bryan, I'm sure, would be above Hogan if they make it because Bryan's in-ring is better by more of the metrics I'd use. I take a different route to you, yes; not to railroad or troll or because I got hit in the head with a wombat, but to be true to who and what I believe is great (in-ring) about this great love of ours, including ear-cupping and Yes!Locks. Grapplefuck shootstyle it is, then? I love your work, El-P. I'd be the one talking about the size of a wrestler's trunks (bigger is better).

"Which of the greats was the best in-ring?" is sorta the way I'm looking at it. My starting criteria for inclusion, and first-draft heading, is We Built This Motherfucking City, and I can only come up with forty dead-certs and forty-five hmmmmms at the moment. Otherwise I feel like I'm ranking toeholds and dropkicks, which would be dry as the dead dingo's donger I've mentioned previously (it's the only simile I have), and that would be no fun . I just cannot take the Pro out of this equation, and can only approach this as the Greatest PRO Wrestler Ever. If that invalidates my final submission, I'll still have enjoyed my time watching pro-wrestling On the other side of the coin, it's Danny Hodge project over, or one of the grapplefuck shootsyle guys project over. It's a tough one to balance.

I can't see myself going this route. I just don't believe obscure people have any claim to "Greatest". They may well be the "best". I'm sure there were better boxers than Mohammed Ali, too. But you don't have to dig for the "greats", they loom large on the landscape and often eclipse it. Some of the "nominees" last time were mind-boggling. It's an exclusive club, not an inclusive one.