strobogo

Due to the nature of their careers, positions, promotions, and longevity, they're difficult to really compare directly. I think Bret is certainly better at the physical and mechanic aspects of pro wrestling. His matches were structured like actual contests, his moves looked more devastating, his selling better, and there was a physical authenticity to Bret's movements that almost no wrestler ever has had in my mind, where Flair's were generally more like an amusement park ride or stunt show spectacular. Flair also probably has literally hundreds more significant matches on tape with nearly every talent imaginable than Bret has. Bret was also in a promotion where good matches were rarely ever something much thought was given to while he was in it. He also had a much worse roster of talent to wrestle with when he was in a position to have long top of the card matches. All that said to say I think Bret was a better wrestler, Flair was a better entertainer, and entertainer is not a pejorative in this sense. Flair's matches, especially mid to late 80s on when the 60 minute broadways became fewer and fewer, Flair's matches are pure entertainment matches. It's less about what makes the most sense at all times and more about what is going to excite the crowd the most in the moment. And honestly, at this stage I think his "prime" years are actually the least interesting or entertaining years of his career. Most people would probably peg those years at 1985-1989 or so, and in the past year or two, I'm finding myself enjoying his pre-1981-84 and the absolute unhinged insanity of 1994-1999 or so where he is just batshit and drunk 24/7 and his matches are 100% just the hits much more than his "peak". Flair in the early Nitro era is WILDLY entertaining at all times he's on screen. I do not believe Bret was having wrestling matches as good on Raw as Flair was being entertaining on Nitro during the same time frame. I also think Bret's matches are more unique and memorable for it, especially when he has multiple matches with the same opponent. And also rarer due to not wrestling in serious matches on TV nearly as often as Flair. We're talking about the "little touches" Bret added to his matches, but I don't think those touches were spots or anything. I think it was the way he got up off the mat. The way his legs were splayed on the mat after a bump. The way he sold exhaustion. The way he threw a punch or uppercut or kick that somehow looked so much more impactful than anyone else. I will say Flair was probably better at having fun/entertaining short TV matches against mid card/low card guys more than Bret was. I think I'd rather watch an 8 minute Flair vs American Males Bagwell match on Nitro than a 10 minute Bret vs Adam Bomb or Mantaur match on Superstars.

Me and a few buddies are keeping a spreadsheet with weighted ranks for matches, promos, interviews, hype segments, commercials for Nitros/Clashes/PPVs probably up to the end of 1997 but we'll see if/when Thunder gets uploaded to Peacock if that's something we really want to continue. In 1996, Hogan's segments/promos/matches are consistently the lowest ranked of anything by the whole group and usually when he doesn't appear, the overall show ranking will go up an entire point on the scale (or more) because not only was the Hogan shit always bad in 1996, but I'm pretty sure the shows he was on were also booked so as to make sure nothing would out shine him, which meant everything sucked when he was in a match on a show. Over a four month span in 1996: The entire Four Horsemen group are literally on their knees begging off from Hogan in the ring Squashes the OMG on Nitro while Gang is US Champion and there were 4-5 other members of the DoD he could have squashed on Nitro that weren't holding a title. He loses the title in October, his name plate is still on the belt into March. When Flair starts storming the booth and going nuts and people are into it, he starts doing it, at least once actually chasing Flair off so he could do it there instead, despite Gene already being in the ring trying to do an interview with Hogan. He gets a good reaction using a chair one week, so he has to beat multiple people up with a chair every week for the next 5 weeks. During a lumberjack match, he beats up 5 lumberjacks on the floor by himself. Hogan beats up the entire Dungeon of Doom multiple times on his own, including one time after an atrocious cage match with The Giant that he decisively won and then went on to beat up every single member of the DoD with a chair also inside the cage immediately after Beats up Giant with a chair probably 4 different times, slams him multiple times not even in matches. He does this even as WCW is building Giant up for a title win and the difference in how Giant is presented and looks in matches with Hogan vs matches with Flair/Sting/Savage in the same time frame is night and day. In fact, the same night that Hogan goes away until the NWO turn is the night Hogan routes Sullivan/Arn in a handicap match and then slams Giant in a scuffle all to cut a promo about how Hulkamania is stronger than ever (then vanishing for months), Giant lays out Sting, Lex, and Flair in the main event and the skirmish with Hogan is literally never mentioned again. Two weeks later, Giant very decisively beats Flair for the title. Of course, Hogan is the guy to take the title off Giant when the time comes in a few months. Spends roughly 2 months stealing every thing cool Randy Savage says in their promos, including OHHH YEAAAHH sometimes even saying it instead of Savage in promos. After LOSING to Arn Anderson, he declares himself the Enforcer of WCW. 2-3 weeks later, he wants to be called the Dirtiest Player In The Game. One week he has Arn giving up in a figure four while pinning Flair with a small package. Flair wasn't in the match and was also champion and it was like a 10 count. Hogan (and Savage, mostly Savage, actually, as he did most of the heavy lifting in that match) wins the dogshit Doomsday Cage Match defeating The Horsemen, the Dungeon of Doom, and Zeus and Jeep Swanson all at the same time. When Liz turns and joins up with Flair, it's not Flair, Liz, or even Savage that cuts a promo about how she took all of Macho's money/house/land/etc. It's Hogan. Who does it while standing beside Randy who looks like he legit can't believe what this fucking guy is saying right now on camera. When Savage wins the title again, he immediately tries to outshine him, which seems like an angle because Savage then brings it up in a promo and the next week Hogan demands a title shot for HIS title (he also did this after Savage won at WW3 but nothing came of it then, either) that never happens as Flair wins the title shortly after. While champion, Randy always comes out to Hogan's music and is usually wearing red and yellow for any of their matches or segments. Then there's the ancillary things, like Sting/Lex being completely removed from the title scene and angle that was so great and interesting in the first couple months of Nitro and continuing their thing as a full time team and Lex goes after the TV Championship. Flair was getting the best reactions every show for months with insane promos while Hogan was generally getting booed most weeks, so Flair wins the title and doesn't cut a promo on TV for a MONTH. As champion. I'm convinced that if Pillman was a main eventer, Hogan would have been calling himself the Loose Cannon at this time. Even with the bad Hogan stuff, Nitro is SO much better than Raw. Much in the same way that Saturday Night in 1993 blew Raw out of the water on every front.

ECW fucking sucks, brehs

It's kind of interesting that WWE gets titled eras whereas WCW's eras are named after whoever was in charge at the time

He's been the King of Kings. He's been The Creator. All that's left is some version of The Holy Spirit, which would complete the trinity. Triple H. It's all making sense. New merch with various Jesus art scenes but he's a skeleton and wearing a leather jacket.

Oh god in my memory Hogan just disappeared with no explanation immediately after the Doomsday Cage match, but instead for some reason Hogan continues the feud with Arn and Sullivan (despite both beating both the DoD and Horsemen in the Doomsday Cage and also Arn/Sullivan having a spat and apparently breaking up their alliance), but now with The BOOTY BOOTY BOOTY BOOTY BOOTY Man instead of Macho, who is completely moved on along with Flair into their own angle that is entirely separated from this shit. Then Booty Man gets hurt I guess and so Hogan gets to demolish Arn/Sullivan in a handicap match, almost beat up Woman and Liz, then beat up Jimmy Hart, and THEN, after having decisively defeated The Giant in a cagematch at SuperBrawl and Giant since having been built back up with matches against Flair and Sting in recent weeks, completely no sells the chokeslam and slams Giant in a little skirmish that was a set up for a promo. This shit is just off the charts. Everything Hogan has done in 1996 has been just fucking terrible, but in the 2-3 weeks before and after Uncensored, it's like he's entirely in his own universe that is not connected to the rest of the show or promotion in any way. And it is so, so, so out of touch and stale. I believe after this, he doesn't show up again until the NWO SWERVE. Why on earth was he so intent to bury The Giant even when there was no reason to even have them interacting? It's even more blatant pandering to Hogan's ego because Giant is in the main event later in the show (in a team with Flair that makes no sense also but that's a different story) and the Hogan deal was completely ignored.

Raw was usually fucking terrible when it was 1 and then 2 hours as well, though

I think there are few things more objective than the quality of Raw being really fucking terrible for a really long time (like the vast majority of the show's existence, to be honest)

I could swear he said he was retiring and becoming a full time musician after his WWE release and then he was back within 5-6 months.

Finish was real interesting. I can't think of any non-young lions matches that didn't have an extended finishing sequence unless it was a flash pin/sub OUTTA NOWHERE in many years. Certainly not in a main event title match, and certainly not in an Okada match. That might have been more surprising than the actual result itself.

That match is a disaster of botches, much like damn near any Konnan match even against top tier talent. I've never seen a guy gas so fast and half ass his moves so much. No fucking clue how this guy became a big star in Mexico and America because his "charisma" was just yelling shit and using lines from rap songs.

I haven't seen any editing for content of anything. All kinds of breezy racism and crazy shit even on randomly weekly TV shows in the 80s/90s that aren't edited for content, no editing of New Jack or Benoit or any other problematic fella. I haven't even actually seen any disclaimers like the non-Peacock version had.

On the scale of "wrestlers exposing and embarrassing themselves", Black going into detail about how much thought he put into his character because he was so passionate about what he does, that got shit canned without warning, is literally not even mentionable. Let this man say what he feels like he needs to say. Christ.

Sanada gotta be thinking fuck it send me to AEW

Lol match with Nick Gage is its own meme booking that a whole lot of talent and people who it doesn't make much sense other than for lolz do

Sure, if you ignore the 18 years of precipitous and steady downfall before the Fiend garbage.

Jericho has been instant groan for me in every appearance he's made anywhere since roughly 2012 or so. Even moving to part time, short runs in WWE for a number of years was just god go away man. Since then he's only gotten cornier, more annoying, and fatter. I get that he's the big star to get eyes on the company and all, but even WWE realized a decade ago he's best used in short, sporadic bursts and not constantly for months and months on end. And in AEW he clearly has no oversight with what he wants to do and it's been fucking awful from the start. He's holding back everyone that is associated with. I think it would be a great thing for him to go away for 9 months to a year and come back for 2-3 matches a year going forward and not be a regular talent in or out of the ring. His promos suck, his matches suck, his feuds going on way too long and also suck. He's got 3 dudes 30 and under dressing up like Sons of Anarchy extras because he has a shitty dad metal biker aesthetic so everyone around him has to have it, too.

I don't think that's too weird, I spoke in the present tense about a job I didn't work at for a couple of months just out of habit.

Lana sucks. Obviously her in ring stuff is bad, but her promos are also very bad. She was PASSABLE in her role as an 80s throw back gimmick bullshit. Atrocious once that got dropped. Her real life personality is entirely lacking in charisma and is some how more vapid seeming than her on screen character that has no characterization at all. She can only be a hinderance to him in AEW.

Did Vince actually kick him to the curb? Sure seemed like he was willing to throw everything in the trash if Hulk was willing to stay with the company. The late 1995-early-mid 1996 run isn't just not putting anyone over, it's actively and (quite blatantly and obliviously) intentionally trying to drag everyone around him down. You can see the panic in his eyes when guys are getting better reactions or saying cool things that he wished he came up with. I'm completely convinced he hit Bischoff/Sullivan with a "that's not gonna work for me, brother" when the few weeks of Sting/Savage calling him on his bullshit got positive reactions from the crowd and suddenly the main event angle changed completely.

At least in 1993-1994 he's not on TV every week. Once Nitro kicks off, he's on every show multiple times a week outside of a 2-3 week period where he was on the Darkside filming some shitty movie no one ever saw. He then kicks it into the highest gear as soon as 1996 starts. There's one promo that really stands out where he just goes on and on about how Liz took half of Macho's money/land/house etc while Savage is right next to him like this mother fucker. It's a promo Ric Flair should have been cutting on Savage, instead it was Hogan and it was clearly just to make Savage look bad.

Man I don't think I've ever seen a more pathetic display of insecurity in a top guy than Hogan in 1996. There's a few week period where he literally just copies everything Savage is saying and doing including doing the OOOOOOHHH YEAAAAH every week IN THE PROMOS THAT SAVAGE IS STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO HIM. If Flair is doing something wild or storming the booth, Hogan has to do it, too. There's seriously a period where if Macho says anything cool in a promo, Hogan immediately jumps in and repeats it for himself like a fucking toddler begging for attention. After he LOSES to Arn, he declares himself the new Enforcer of WCW. Heading into SuperBrawl, he has a week where he has all four members of the Horsemen on their knees begging off from him. Just him. At SuperBrawl, after decisively beating the Giant, the entire Dungeon of Doom hits the ring and he beats up the ENTIRE group. By himself. Every single member runs into the cage and gets bounced by him, one by one. The next night, he has Arn giving up in the figure four and pins Ric Flair, who isn't even in the match, at the same time. Anytime any of the guys around him do or say something cool, he immediately and blatantly tries to co-opt it. You also have more subtle shit like Arn hitting a DDT on Savage costs Savage a match, but Hogan either completely shrugged the move off entirely or no sold it just because when it happened to him. Or the week after Arn gets a very tainted win over him, he comically completely and entirely runs through Arn in the rematch the next week. I remember all this stuff being bad but rewatching it and it's so glaringly obvious that he's freaking out at a lot of WCW crowds turning on him, and Savage/Sting/Lex/Flair getting better reactions (probably especially Savage and Flair, but he seems pretty shook that Lex Luger of all people ate him up on the mic in the first or second Nitro). There's a period where literally all the other guys involved in the main event angle are getting better reactions than him and suddenly Ric Flair doesn't cut any promos for a month despite being champion and Sting/Lex completely vanish from that whole scene and wanting to be WCW champion and instead just go do the full time tag team thing and Lex goes after...the TV championship. Such a vulgar and pathetic display of ego and insecurity and it really drags down Nitro, the Clash, and PPVs that were a lot of fun previously and immediately hit a wall when Hogan's ego was hurt.

I don't think they're great together at all and in fact I 100% believe she drags him down and he's been better in every incarnation without her than he was with her.

Further, what's the benefit of shitting all over WWE and/or Vince? Athletes in actual sports usually thank the franchise they were a part of after they get cut or traded as well. It's just part of being professional.

Why wouldn't they thank WWE, though? For many if not most of them, getting to WWE is their dream and peak of their careers, they got a lot of exposure, world travel, WM sized crowds they'd never get anywhere else. There are a lot of experiences, both good and bad, that these people are only going to get working with WWE. I'd like to imagine most of these talents are less precious about shitty booking than fans are.