goodhelmet

I forgot who posted it, but there was a cartoon strip with Joe and Punk with Punk basically laughing at Joe when everyone thought Joe did the right thing at the time not to become the next Umaga and predicted Punk would never exit JTTS status.

When Loss posed that question 4 years ago, I thought there was no way since 2005 had some pretty good stuff sprinkled throughout, the X division still had its supporters, they did employ net favorites like Samoa Joe. Now? No company has done worse that has been around so long. Not one other company sucks as bad as long as TNA. By far, the worst company in pro wrestling history. The other shitty companies mentioned in the previous thread at least disappeared after a couple of years. This fucking piece of shit has been around almost a decade. Disgraceful.

Finlay-Armstrong - I converted the majority of Lynch's Germany for him and no complete version exists.

You also said "Fuck anyone who wasn't down with the clubbering"... As if you are personally offended that someone would somehow be disinterested in that particular piece of their offense. When Arn was bumping like a pinball for it, awesome. When it was other opponenets, not so much.

The Undertaker tattoo is a horrible example. Just saying. As for if he has or hasn't, until there is some evidence of him doing drugs, even a rumor or some backstage whisper, then why is this even being discussed? I want to read more posts about Punk and Stone Cold having a Twitter war.

Both the SMW and ECW sets are being released this summer.

Absolutely. What kind of shocks me, and I never saw it this way before, is that Arn & Tully aren't that much smaller than Eadie & Darsow. The point is that even though it was logical, it was still a match that reinforces the heel in peril ideal. I didn't hate the match. It just wasn't anything blow away. I think my problem with the Towers match is I don't want to see vulnerability in Demolition. In the Busters match, it was only cheating and nefarious deeds with the rope that allowed the Busters to take advantage. With the Towers, the Demos were clearly outmatched strength wise.

I watched 2 of the 5 recommended Demo matches from above... Demolition vs. Twin Towers (6/3/89) The Good: - They stuck to the Face In Peril formula for most of the match but I don’t know if FIP is the type of match I want Demolition working. Dems are in a rough spot as they are built as these machines but going against two giants does not accentuate their strengths. Still, exhibit #1 in the WWF doing Southern tag formula. - The Akeem butt smashes in the corner look devastating as did his big leg drop. - The match didn’t last too long. I don’t want these guys in 20 minute matches so to have a decent ten minute match is fine with me. The Bad: - For a team that has been hyped as having state of the art offense, none of that was on display here. The early shine segment was entirely made up of clubbering and arm bars. Later on in the match, some of the Darsow offense was actively bad like the sloppy small package and the clothesline that took Bossman down for a double knockout spot. I look forward to other Demo matches where I can see these great offensive masterminds because it was not on display here. - I love me some Ronnie Garvin but his interference early on was annoying and he just seemed out of place as a referee. Stopping Bossman from connecting with the punch only for Darsow to get one in seemed unnecessary. Demolition are machines. They don’t need referee help. - When you get two big fat dudes, you want to see them squash bugs like they did in the super fun Rockers series. Akeem’s offense was fun (as mentioned above) but Bossman’s was very generic. I don’t blame Demos for this but when you have a man down do something besides wander around the ring for ten seconds. Overall: Absolutely nothing special of a match. I am not angry I watched it and it was a nice way to kill ten minutes but nothing I see on the revamped 80s project and certainly nothing besides Akeem’s offense was as interesting as a number of PG-13 matches. Demolition vs. Brainbusters (9/30/89) The Good: - Arn and Tully are awesome early on bumping big and putting themselves in situations where Demolition can counter. Tully and Arn bump big for mediocre Demo offense and I have seen them do this time and again in NWA matches. Those two are so great. - The Axe clubbering works almost entirely due to how Arn and Tully sell the shots… Arn bouncing off the mat and Tully ramming his own head into the mat with each shot. - The heat segment with Arn and Tully cheating and cutting off the ring works better here than in the Twin Towers match because those guys are masters of the style. The crowd really got into it once Arn & Tully took over as it should be. Like the Demo fans, I really liked the Tully chin lock spot as well. - Hot ending with Tully and Arn bumping big for the Demo offense. Nothing state of the art but it worked well. The Bad: - Eadies clothesline sorta sucks and Darsow follows with his staple… the chinlock!!! Feel the power! Not feeling the high-end Demo offense at all although there was a super cool spot with the atomic drop-big boot combo. The rest of this match was entirely about what Arn & Tully were doing. - Bad Arn kickout that gets the biggest pop of the match but it looked pretty fake. - The screwy ending sucked but I understand why they did it. - This match reinforces the idea that the WWF was a heel in peril company. Arn and Tully didn’t really take any kind of control until about 6 minutes left in the 15 minute match. I don’t have a problem with it because they are such great bumpers. - Overall: Much better than the Twins Towers match and I could see this on a WWF 80s set. It would ultimately depend on how this match compares to other Brainbuster matches with other teams. Still, this was more of a showcase on what made the Brainbusters great and didn’t really feature the super high-end offensive power of the Demo’s that I was told existed.

I know you did so don't be a smartass. I wanted the five best Demo matches copy and pasted on this board where the actual discussion was taking place.

OK, give me a list of Demolition's five best matches, the British Bulldogs' Top 5 and Hart Foundation's Top 5. I want to know what their greatest collection of matches happen to be. After that, stop just listing matches and not explaining what made them great. If you explained it at another board, cut and paste it here. I want to read some match reviews and real arguments, not random two sentence posts.

We watched the RNR vs. Horsemen match for the yearbook. No one in the crowd gave a shit. However, the crowds gave a shit in SMW and USWA and that's good enough for me. Also by 1996, they weren't just past their prime but had also been working for over 15 years. They had a helluva run in the 2nd biggest promotion in the mid 80s and the early 90s. They did rise to the top. If the WWF is the only measurement of success well then fuck the Midnight Express, the Fantastics, The Freebirds (ignoring their 1985 stand), the Southern Boys, etc. Horrible argument that they couldn't run big time in post MNW so fuck the 15 years that came before it.

Not true. The Road Warriors were known for being stiff and careless with their opponents. Might have sucked for the guys in the ring but did not look “weak” on TV... the big body presses, Animal's powerslam, shoulder tackle. All looked brutal for the time. Not true. As a kid in the 80s, I thought Dickie looked woefully out of place. I couldn’t understand why this pot-bellied, chicken legged, drunk was going toe to toe with the monsters and was given so much air time. It wasn’t until I was an adult and rediscovered wrestling that Murdoch becomes a god. No kid I know had Dickie Murdoch posters on their wall and I don’t remember anyone my age begging for more Murdoch on the TV either. In fact, Murdoch is a strong case for re-evaluating guys who underwhelmed you as a kid. Maybe someone here around the age of 35 was a big Murdoch fan and I was just ignoarant. The whole purpose of this thread is to re-evaluate wreslers because there is more footage to examine. Nothing wrong with that even if it does fuck with your childhood memories. I said it earlier but I will repeat it… for old NWA guys like myself, when Demolition appeared, they instantly came off as a second rate Road Warriors rip-off. The fact that they overcame that to become a pretty memorable team is in their favor. I tried watching some Demolition matches from the DVDVR Demo thread and I tapped out after 3 matches. They just don’t interest me as a unit.

Dylan listed a few earlier in the thread as did Loss.

Fun fact: when we were looking at cuts, this almost didn't make it on the set.

SMKelly – Ignoring the idea that you have to be Phil Schneider in order to search for matches that you haven’t seen (which is one of the weirdest things I have seen written on a message board), the entire point of the thread is that the more PG-13 matches that are discovered, the stronger the argument becomes that they were one of the best tag teams. This isn’t some contrarian viewpoint. Footage of PG13 (and most tag teams in this thread) is more widely available today than it was 5, 10, 15 years ago. Entire seasons of SMW and USWA as well as circulation of ECW/SMW fancams are available that allow us to re-evaluate their worth. You can disagree but disagree on the merits of the matches you have actually seen. The big league vs. minor league argument is silly because you are comparing performance vs. real competition as mentioned above. Doesn’t hold weight at all. We aren’t comparing wrestling accomplishments such as worked title reigns. Under that logic, HHH, the 32 time world champion is Top 5 all time and someone already used the Hogan-AmDrag example. This is a discussion about actual match performance, not worked accomplishments.

WWF Demolition - Christ, I have never been fans of this team. As an NWA kid in the 80s, when I first saw them I was one of those guys who instantly thought "Roadie Ripoff". As for matches, I don't think they have but a handful of good/great matches. The Rumble angle where they squared off as #1 and 2 was cool but I would rather watch 100 PG-13 matches over any Demo match. Hart Foundation - Man, I loved the Harts as a kid but Neidhart was clearly a weak link and had no problem resting in the middle of the tag match when he could have just tagged out to Bret when he needed a breather. I am not as down on WWF tag style as Dylan but another team where I would rather watch PG-13 work. Nasty Boys - See WCW Road Warriors - As far as image goes, no tag team is cooler. However, anytime they had a good match it was because they were in with a super workrate team like the MX, the All Japan aces or the Brainbusters. Money Inc. - Two guys past their prime who I could care less if I ever saw another one o their matches. Natural Disasters - Ok, so for their size, I can see how they work within their limitations. Still, give me that one defining ND match. Just one that would topple the best of the PG-13 matches. Steiners - See above Quebecers - I liked their shtick when they turned heel where they talked like faces, wrestled like heels and soaked in the fans boos. I enjoyed thier Steiner matches and Owen/Bret match. Does anyone consider them a top WWF tag team, much less one of the greatest tag teams of all time? Marty Jannetty & 123 Kid - Makeshift team Men on a Mission - No Headshrinkers - Man, I don't remember 1994 Shrinkers but I love the SST in the 80s. I think the SST should be in the conversation of super tag teams that don't get their due as I loved them in TX and the NWA. Diesel and Shawn - Hey, they had the match from Action Zone. +5 123 Kid & Bob Holly - Makeshift team Smoking Gunns - Ugh, two mediocre wrestlers who have never had a great tag match. Owen Hart & Yokozuna - Behind the Steiners as the 2nd best tag champs up to this point from the 90s. The Bodydonnas - I am ashamed that I can't recall watching a single Donnas match. The Godwinns - Dogshit Owen & Bulldog - Buddy System HBK/Foley & Austin - Makeshift teams Headbangers - Mediocre. Is there a great Headbangers match out there? New Age Outlaws - Best match was a garbage match against Funk & Foley that wouldn't rank on the Top Twenty of Funk or Foley garbage matches. Funk & Foley - Buddy System Kane & Mankind - Buddy System/ Makeshift/ Russo bullshit 1999 - Man, way too many makeshift champions at the height of Russo stupidity but there are a few worth mentioning or have already been mentioned. Owen & Jarrett - Too short of a run and no standout matches Hardy Boyz - I really like the Hardy Boyz. I don't know where I would place them but it took until the Hardy boyz for me to even think of another standout tag team since the Hart Foundation 9 years earlier. E&C - Lump these two guys in the Hardy mold where it ultimately depends if you like that trainwreck stunt-show style more than classic southern tag wrestling. As personalities, -- Again, we can make a case that PG-13 are better than nearly every tag team champion in the WWF in the 90s from an in-ring & longevity perspective.

Just for the hell of it, I went through the WCW and WWF tag champions of the 1990s to see where I would put PG-13 in comparison. We'll start with WCW first. I am not going to mention every champion but I'll mention some of the names mentioned in this thread and some that intrigue me for one reason or another. WCW Doom - I like Doom more than most but PG-13 are better on the mic and had better matches. Michael Hayes and Jimmy Garvin - Both men were way past their prime here. I have joked with Phil and Loss how Hayes went from being one of the coolset people ever in the 80s to one of the uncoolest people ever in the 90s. Steiners - For me, this is a style issue. If you like the Steiners throwing bombs, stiffing dudes and going to war, I can't fault people for liking them more than PG-13. However, if we are talking about smartly worked matches, PG-13 wins this in a landslide. When I watch a Steiners match, I always have fun watching it but not everything in the match always makes sense in the ring. The Enforcers - I like both guys but Arn's best tag team was with Tully and I like Larry Z as a singles guy better. Arn Anderson & Bobby Eaton -Once again, both guys were on better teams and I never bought that these guys were working together as one organism. Gordy & Doc - I love both of these guys but the WCW run was underwhelming and they were not over either. In All Japan, they wouldn't even crack my Top 5. I like both more as singles wrestlers. Steamboat & Dustin - Makeshift tag team. Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes - See, this is a team that should have lasted longer and might have been in the discussion. I know people talk about the Blondes run being cut off way too short. That is how I feel about Dustin/Barry. Steamboat/ Douglas - This is another team that didn't last too long but I liked the dynamic and they had some really good matches. Hollywood Blondes - Dylan already talked about how they were over-rated and how the parts were greater than the sum. Arn Anderson & Paul Roma - Maybe the worst tag partner Arn has ever had Nasty Boys - Man, great gimmick but such a hit or mainly miss tag team. For every street fight or Steiners match, there are probably ten horrible matches they have been involved in. Scorpio & Bagwell - A very under-rated tag team but not on PG-13s level. If they would have stuck it out, I could see them as a tag team people still talked about today but they suffer from the constant changing of the guard in WCW front offices. Cactus Jack & Kevin Sullivan - Fun tag team. Paul Orndorff & Paul Roma - I don't even remember this. Bagwell and the Patriot - Or this Harlem Heat -Dogshit team. Seriously, can anyone name a good Harlem Heat match and actually explain why it is good and not just list it? Cool ring gear though. Bunkhouse Buck & Dick Slater - Could have been a contender for best ever... 10 years earlier American Males - I am missing 2 Cold Scorpio around this time. Sting & Lex Luger - As I mentioned in my previous thread, these guys work great on the buddy system but were never lasted long enough to be thought of twice. Also, they were wrestling some shit teams in 1996. The Outsiders - Fuck, I loved watching these guys in 96-97 but the matches sucked. Ignoring all of the random NWO Black vs. NWO Red stuff and Rick Steiner stuff Curt Hennig & Barry Windham - I liked the Outlaws but I don't even know if this was the best version of the team. After you dump the Vanilla Midgets, was anyone blown away by the Master P/ Filthy Animals stuff? Benoit & Malenko - I'll consider both their WCW and ECW stints and again, this was a pair of guys who were better in the buddy system but were never running as a tag team for more than a few months at a time. Billy Kidman/Konnan & Rey Mysterio - Buddy System Triad - Buddy System The rest of 1999 sucked. At this point, PG-13 is better than every WCW championship team IMO save maybe the Steiners. It will be interesting to see where they stand against the WWF and ECW teams.

I think that in today's current wrestling climate, where tag teams are no longer brought in on team contracts and are signed as individuals, the best possible way to book tag teams would be the buddy system. For example, in WCW, it was known that Luger and Sting were best buds. They could wrestle as singles or as a tag team and they were taken seriously in both roles. In 1998, Jericho and Eddy formed the best one month tag team of all time as heels. Hell Rey and Eddie were an awesome tag team when feuding with MNM but it didn't feel unnatural at all putting them together because of their history together. Currently in WWE, tag team matches are based on the feuds and not on friendship. When Truth turned on John Morrisson, was there ever a moment in the last 5 years where you ever got the sense that these guys were friends? While Truth has been a great heel, it wasn't like Eddie turning on Rey where the crowd believed Eddie was insanely jealous of Rey at the time and it drove him over the brink. Since Mark Henry and Sheamus are heels and Christian and Orton are faces, they create two makeshift tag teams. Instead, a wiser move IMO would be to have Sheamus enlist his fellow Euro Drew McIntire or have Christian team with someone other than the guy he has faced for the last 4 weeks. On the flip flop, there has to be someone that Orton could have to watch his back in certain situations. Really, if I were the WWE, I would have a buddy system where every single guy on the roster has a buddy who they have on-screen friendships and are seen actually interacting as friends. This also allows for future turns/feuds but also gives you credible tag teams without having guys stuck in the tag team role. Becuase i am insanely bored and stuck in suspended comp-making limbo, I looked at the WWf roster and here are some of the makeshift buddies I could think of based on current heel/face alignments (I think) and completely ignoring what show they are on and injuries ... Sheamus/ Drew John Cena / Zach Ryder (Clearly playing off the popularity of Ryder's internet fame and Cena's cameos) Randy Orton / Evan Bourne Alberto Del Rio / Dolph Ziggler (with Vickie Guerrero in a three way tandem) Christian / Chris Masters R-Truth / Mark Henry (Two evil black dudes, duh) John Morrison / Alex Riley (Miz's jilted lovers) Punk / Wade Barrett (Ditch the loser factions) Kofi / Ezekiel (2 happy black dudes, duh) Daniel Bryan / William Regal (Teacher /Student Dynamic here) Rey Mysterio / Yoshi Tatsu (Little Engines that could) Cody Rhodes / Goldust (Brotherly Love) Jack Swagger / Brodus Clay (Just because I like Brodus and I think he fits with Swagger better than ADR) You could probably dissect these and tear them apart but it only took a glance at the WWE Superstars page and see how you can have several relationships / feuds entertwined and not kill off any singles pushes. You also have a superior / inferior guy similar to the system that All Japan uses. Dylan made the comment that he didn't think that the All Japan guys could be called legit tag teams but you could probably say the same about any of the above. However, you have multiple matchups and even matches that could headline house shows / TV tapings without losing anything in your main feuds.

What bothers me about this thread (besides Jerome calling them PJ13) is that no one else besides Dylan has made a compelling argument for any other team. Jingus, after reading your thoughts, since you are not a fan of Southern Style Wrestling, does that mean you also dislike other heel teams like the MX, PYTs, Freebirds, Brainbuters, etc.? All of them worked shtick and sometimes had entire matches built from stalling, jawing with fans (or manager jawing with fans), cheating, cutting off the ring. If we are talking about all tag teams, The Misawa teams, Kawada/Taue, Choshu/Yastu and the rest of the All Japan teams definitely count. The fact that they were excellent singles wrestlers who could seamlessly work excellent tag matches on a regular basis should not hurt their cause.

It isn't about finding footage. It is that new shit pops up all the time and I have to decide what stays and what goes.

Probably no Tenryu show. We were planning on doing a 1980s All Japan show so maybe we'll talk about him at length then. Tenryu comp is still here collecting dust as more matches pop up and forcing me to pull out my hair.

As soon as we have our schedules lined up with our planned guest.

Well, at least one person will do that (me)