ohtani's jacket

But if racism is involved then surely the overall narrative would be that they're both inferior to homegrown American product. Why would the coverage be less bigoted toward Japan than Mexico? That doesn't make much sense to me considering the threat that Japan was to American industry at the height of its post-war recovery. Are you saying people are less bigoted toward Asians than Mexicans? That's a legitimate question, btw. I come from a country with a large Asian population but no Mexican or Latino community to speak of. Japan being seen as "cool" and Mexico as "nothing" may play a part in how the different wrestling cultures are perceived but I think we should leave racism out of the debate until there's actual coverage that displays a bigoted attitude toward Mexican wrestling. Besides, as Jerome pointed out, lucha's imagery is considered cool in many circles, not just in Parisian cafes but in Japan too. In fact, the lucha mask is more well known around the world and more instantly recognisble than anything to come out of Japan wrestling-wise. Japanese wrestling's popularity among American fans rode a wave of Japanese cultural exports that began with cars, televsions and stereo walkmans and crossed over into comics and movies and toys and Saturday morning cartoons. That constant exposure to Japanese cultural exports shaped an image of Japan as a place where all this cool shit comes from. And to be honest, it became right after the war during the American occupation where GIs would take back traditional Japanese gifts to their families and spread the exoticism of geishas and Japanese tea-houses and what have you. But to me, that's political, historical and socio-economic. It's possibly an example of oriental exoticism, but the fact of the matter is that Japanese culture had champions like Donald Ritchie. If not for Donald Ritchie, Japanese cinema would be far less known than it is. Japanese cinema from the studio system days is far more well known and revered than Mexican cinema from the same period. I mean, Japanese wrestling vs. lucha has NOTHING on the lack of recognition that Mexican cinema has received compared to Japanese films. Personally, I've made an effort to watch as much old Mexican cinema as I can find, but if we're being honest, the Japanese studios had more money and the standard of cinematography was higher. And that's the same battle lucha faces with its production values. Personally, I like old grainy lucha footage with poorly lit arenas but many people are turned off by the poor mic'ing as well as the camerawork and editing. They're common complaints that are exasperated by the confusing rules and often chaotic nature of the bouts. Having said that, there is undeniably an element of people wishing they could someday visit Japan to go on their dream wrestling trip. Mexico is seen as more dangerous. Whether there's any truth to that matter or it's just plain bigotry people can decide for themselves, but Japan is definitely seen as safer than Mexico.

Black Gordman and the Great Goliath used to draw heat from the Mexican fans in the Southwest and Southern California by claiming they were from New Mexico instead of Mexico.

Nobody in this thread has demonstrated any sort of bigotry or racism toward Mexico or lucha libre. I don't think it's fair to say that people dislike lucha libre because of any sort of underlying bigotry. The reasons people have given for disliking lucha have been largely stylistic. To be honest, this smacks of a thinly veiled dig at "Japanophiles," a bone of contention that is never far from the surface when it comes to discussing why foreigners are interested in Japanese pro-wrestling. There are all sorts of political, historical and socio-economic reasons why Japanese culture has been exported to a greater extent than Mexican culture. Japan is also famous (some might say infamous) for copying ideas and improving them. It's no surprise then that some people feel the Japanese were able to copy American wrestling and improve and innovate it. What hasn't been addressed so far is that many people get into puroresu after becoming fed up with the American product. For those fans who are not yet ready to give up on wrestling, there seems to be a clear and obvious reason why they gravitate toward Japanese pro-wrestling over lucha, and that reason is not only the fact that Japanese wrestling is more prevalent in online discussion (which it is), but because Japanese wrestling, for the most part, takes itself seriously and puts wrestling first. That appealed to your old-school type who believed the name on the marque says wrestling, and it still appeals today to anyone who's fed up with the modern day product. It's arguably less relevant today given that the WWE delivers a far superior in-ring product to any point in its existence and the wrestling boom in Japan burst along with the economic bubble. Indy wrestling seems to be doing well in the US these days as well. But traditionally Japanese wrestling was the clear alternative and it's pretty obvious why it would appeal more than the heavily stylised lucha. If you had shown 20 year old me Kawada vs. Misawa or When Worlds Collide, I would have preferred Kawada vs. Misawa to anything on the When Worlds Collide show. And that really was the point of comparison back in the day -- All Japan heavies vs. hot period AAA -- partially due to the coverage in the Observer but also because of the familiarity that people had with the WCW luchadores. Look at the DVDVR Best of the 90s list for lucha. It barely has any CMLL at all. CMLL only really became recognized in tape trading circles when the Santo heel turn became hot. It wasn't until the mid-00s that a lot of us went through the back catalogue and discovered all of the stuff that had been overlooked. Lucha is, and always has been, far behind Japanese wrestling when it comes to chronicling the matches that are good. Tape traders began dealing Japanese wrestling in the early 80s. MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana didn't become a pimped match until 25 years later. That's how far behind the eight ball lucha is. It's also the reason why lucha doesn't get critically evaluated in a proper way, IMO. We're simply not at that stage yet. If you're specifically talking about present day stuff, as in why can't people check out lucha matches that are being pimped as MOTYC contenders when prepping for their end-of-year lists, especially with the accessibility of lucha matches these days; that is a different question. I agree with you that if you're serious about those sort of year-end lists you should take everything into consideration even if it's not a style you particularly enjoy. But it really depends on whether it's something you're doing for yourself or part of some sort of wider forum project.

Ida Mae Martinez vs. Terry Majors was fairly typical heel vs. babyface stuff, but Ida Mae was a plucky babyface and I started to get behind her as the match wore on. Next up was a clip of Argentina Rocca taking on a young Johnny Valentine. Unfortunately, it was mostly a showcase of Rocca's biggest offensive moments in the bout and we didn't get to see much from Valentine. Ricki Starr vs. The Zebra Kid also showcased Starr over his opponent. I've always been interested in Ricki Starr, particularly his run in England in the 60s, but I wonder if the novelty wore off after a while. It would be interesting to know if he had many variations on his standard match structure. The Zebra Kid is even more intriguing. It's impossible to know if he was any good from watching this footage, but like the classic luchadores his mask creates an almost instant folklore. You know what was good? Dick the Bruiser vs. Pepper Gomez. I saw them work a grudge match where their styles fit each other perfectly. It was simple kick/punch stuff but with plenty of intensity. The Original Sheik of Araby vs. The Mighty Jumbo, on the other hand, was the most cartoonish thing I've seen on the channel and proof that promoters have long peddled this sort of wrestling. Rita Martinez vs. Maria Gernaldi was another semi-decent women's match. It's noticeable that all the girls who wrestled out of Hollywood have the same type of haircuts that the starlets had during the 50s. The commentator makes a point to refer to them as "beauties" over and over again as well, creating even more thinly veiled attempts at sex appeal. More Argentina Rocca, this time tagging with Miguel Perez against Jerry and Eddie Graham. Worth watching to see the Graham brothers in action as well as Perez, but the appeal of Rocca is lost on me. You can also see Rocca and Perez in six man action against the Graham brothers with Haystack Calhoun and the Original Sheik of Araby joining the fray. Again, pretty legendary workers but only a few minutes of clips. "Dropkick" Murphy & Nick Lutze vs. LaVerne Baxter & Hardboiled Haggerty is this kind of primitive form of tag wrestling where there are no tags and all four men are in the ring at the same time like a tag team version of a Fatal Four-way. It's a good thing this form of tag wrestling didn't take off as it looks like an ugly battle royal for the most part. There are some neat and inventive spots and Murphy is a bundle of energy, but it's ultimately a bit too weird. Kind of like watching wrestling without corner posts and ropes or in a circle instead of a square. Midgets! Sky Low Low & Billy the Kid vs. Brown Panther & Red Feather. The minis were obviously there to be laughed at and provide the same kind of entertainment as clowns in the circus so I'm not exactly hoping for a minis classico or anything. The heels' gimmicks were a bit racist too, making this an inauspicious start to the minis footage. Lastly, Gene Kiniski vs. The Mighty Ursus. I don't get the appeal of Kiniski at all. Yeah, he's a big strong guy who dishes shit out, but I don't see why he was seen as a champion calibre wrestler. Ursus was a Mexican strongman and so this had a lot of strength holds, and Kiniski powering his way out of holds, but it was nothing special. I kind of wanted to see Kiniski to manhandle Ursus a bit and show me he was a badass, but he's not been the type of guy to ratchet up the intensity thus far.

If you've been a lucha fan for any length of time then you're used to the fact that it's not popular. There were plenty of people who posted in this thread that they've never been able to get into lucha that weren't accused or trolling or attacked personally. Grimmas posed the question of why Japanese wrestling is more popular than lucha and people spelled out the reasons why Japanese wrestling has traditionally been more popular. It was you that decided it was simply a matter of personal taste while at the same time suggesting the fact that so many people dislike lucha that your criticisms of it are validated. The entire thing boils down to the fact that you think you're right about lucha and other people are wrong. It seems to irk you that people like a form of wrestling that doesn't adhere to your personal need for suplexes and snugness, or that people read your takes on lucha and think you misunderstand it. The only time you really praise it is when they do some armwork that looks like Steamboat vs. Bob Orton Jr. or when it's structured in a way that you can identify as heat & shine segments. People don't have a problem with other people disliking lucha. They have a problem with criticisms that are unfair. Honestly speaking, at this point lucha is like prog rock to you, or metal or jazz. Or music in a foreign language. At some point it's better to let it go than argue that free jazz is shit or prog rock is wankery. That has nothing to do with lucha fans having thin skin. According to this thread, lucha fans are arrogant hipsters. Arrogant hipsters have rather robust skin, I would think. At least they probably think so.

#341 I agree with everyone who said this was disjointed and lacked focus. I found it a bit tedious, to be honest, since I'm already familiar with Toyota and Kong and felt that they weren't really clicking. As silverwidow mentioned, their June match was always considered superior to this. A lot of Toyota's work from ''94-96 leaves me cold, though. She's the only worker I can think of where I prefer their early and post prime work to their actual peak. Another thing I can't stop ignoring is how short Aja is. Once you see it, you can never unsee it. She starts looking smaller and smaller to the extent that in a match like this she doesn't look like a monster at all. It's fine when she works big, but she didn't really work big here and since Toyota was clearly taller it bugged me a bit. Can't say I really enjoyed this one.

#337 This was pretty good! Loss was right about it being smarty worked. Some nice selling from both guys, and I thought the way they used the tables and chairs was really effective. Nothing screams 90s wrestling more than tables and chairs, but the spots came naturally here with both men looking to up the ante to literally win a fall anywhere. I wish we could have seen more of the action on the gaming floor, but that was the only bit where they lost me. Super finish capped off a success trip to Vegas. I was going to say junket, but it looked like they were somewhere off the Vegas strip. I know it's my own fault for watching it, but Sabu's post match shtick has got to be one of the dumber things from the 90s? No? Don't get me wrong, I thought he was excellent in this, but that's a "WTF are doing?" if ever there was one.

#343 This morning I watched a pretty damn good Christmas Day match between the Warriors and the Cavs, and this match was awfully similar -- just two great teams going at it. I wish more promotions would adopt the concept of full-blooded six man rivalries. It adds another layer outside of tag matches and singles bouts and brings a team sports feel to wrestling that's really only possible in multi-man bouts. This wasn't as transcendent as their very best stuff, but it was still really great New Year fare for the Korakuen faithful and would make a great rainy day bout if you're looking for one.

We have a thread 300 posts long about how Japanese wrestling is more popular than lucha; of course people are going to be less upset if you criticise puroresu. It's like criticising classic rock vs. shitting all over jazz or hip-hop.

Grapplelucha is a new one on me. As pol mentioned, Terry is a much brawler than he is a mat worker, but if you're not interested in seeing an old man doing Memphis concession style brawls then I would stay away from Terry's brawls. I'm not sure that force-feeding yourself a style is the right way to get into something. I've mentioned before that if you watch enough of a worker they become tolerable. That might make you immune to the things that annoy you about a style, but the only way to really get into something is for the timing to be right. To give a personal example, I always thought Lou Thesz was kind of boring. That was based on watching a match here and there while my attention was drawn toward other things I was into. I built up an idea about Thesz, and other workers from his era, that that stuff is kind of boring and dismissed it as such. Now, I think Thesz is a great worker and I'm wondering how I can see more of his stuff. The difference is that after the GWE poll I was looking for new avenues. The WoS well had dried up and it was hard for me to get any new vault footage since I no longer have rare footage to trade. Bob ALPRA didn't have any new uploads of French catch, and I'd had my fill of lucha. There was an opening to get into something new and Golden Age stuff felt like uncharted waters. In other words, someday folks will get bored and get into lucha.

#340 This was pretty rubbish. The only redeeming thing about it was Tenryu's bumps. It was kind of surreal watching Hogan fight the Legion of Doom, though. It was almost like the WrestleFest game come to life. Kind of makes you wish Tenryu was a hidden character. Winning the Rumble with Tenryu would rock.

I doubt that a young guy on an excursion to Mexico, in what was likely his first singles match in the country, was brought down by an experienced vet like Satanico. The young Japanese guys generally struggled on these excursions facing all sorts of problems with the language barrier and a fair degree of culture shock. Wrestling wise, he'd probably spent a few months working trios bouts in order to learn the style, how to work from the right, and so on. In fact, I'd wager the reason they bought him in a match with Satanico was because they knew Satanico could carry him (and that's a pun, brother.) They did the same thing with their star project, Atlantis, coming off the 1983 Anniversary Show. The reason Satanico's bumps look strange may have something to do with how hard the lucha mats are. Or it may be Satanico being awesome.

With regard to this, I often wonder what people are referring to when they say they've tried getting into lucha. Does it mean they tried following cubsfan's uploads, or watched the matches getting MOTY hype, or does it mean they've tried to watch some of the more famous bouts? I don't think lucha lends itself well to a random sampling, but at the same time you have to be open to the idea of liking lucha to really get into it through the great match approach. The way that I got into it was to watch the '89 and '90 seasons. Japanese wrestling was the opposite. I had a laundry list of great matches I wanted to see right from the beginning. With lucha it was more about learning who the characters were and enjoying their interactions. The critical analysis came later. But as I've said before, I wasn't trying to like lucha, I wanted to like lucha. I liked the fact that it was different. I still like the fact that it's different. The notion that lucha would be better, or more accessible/acceptable, if it were closer in style to Mid-South, Crockett or All Japan seems contrary to the spirit of wrestling. Throughout its history, wrestling has expressed itself differently in different countries and territories. That point of difference and diversity has been crucial to it thriving. Even if you don't see lucha as a special brand of entertainment, you can at least appreciate that it's something different.

I know that lucha is centrally about masculinity, and with regard to machismo, there is plenty of posturing in your typical lucha bout; but the majority of that behaviour occurs in the nightly trios bouts. If you watch a traditional title bout, both wrestlers adhere to the rules irrespective of which code they belong to. Both men use their talent and skill to fight for the title. The end goal may be to prove themselves technically superior to their opponent but it's usually done in a sporting manner. Apuesta matches are a different kettle of fish and largely about machismo and leaving your opponent humiliated. They're not so much about showing off though but rather what happens when all that posturing and showboating leads to tempers flaring.

#344 This was the extreme version of their touring match and was full of tables and chairs and all sorts of crazy dives. I'm more partial to Psicosis doing comedy rudo spots, but it's pointless to complain about those sort of things in a match like this -- it's ECW, you know what you're getting. I respected the way they were able to tweak their tour match to fit the territory they were working. I also had a lot of fun watching this with my six-year-old daughter. She was peaking over my shoulder checking links to her favourite YouTube vids when the costumes drew her attention. Immediately, she recognized that Psicosis was the heel and Misterio was the face. According to her, Psicosis had a scary mask and was strange looking. She cheered Misterio on and admonished Psicosis for being "warui" (bad.) She even pretended to box him on the nose, which was cute. ECW is a bit violent for a six-year-old, and I cringed when she described to her mother what happened with the table, but it took me back to my own childhood and watching with shock as Outlaw Ron Bass attacked Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake with his spurs. Props to Mistero and Psicosis for delivering a bit of awe and wonderment to my daughter even if she forgot about it two seconds later when she commandeered the computer to watch unboxing videos.

Shoot style was an offshoot of what Inoki began in the 70s. Besides, the native wrestling style in Japan is sumo.

But it's different and challenges you to think more than "oh look at Kobashi chop this guy really hard" so just say it sucks and move on. I do feel victimised for not liking lucha, truth be told. No doubt related to your hang-up about people actually liking lucha

That's too bad. One of the things about Cota that doesn't really come across in the footage we have is that he used to rent random costumes from fancy dress shops and wear them to the ring each week. You can see it a bit in his AAA run after he was released from prison.

#349 This was a nice preliminary bout. Scrappy, but in a good way. Kanehara took most of the fight and looked like he might have a future in the sport, but of course the shoot guys could never keep their groups together.

Got through another block of 50. The matches I enjoyed most: 398. Kiyoshi Tamura vs Kazuo Yamazaki (UWFI 10/23/92) 389. Steve Austin & Brian Pillman vs Marcus Bagwell & 2 Cold Scorpio (WCW Worldwide 05/08/93) 381. Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Tokyo Dome 05/01/98) 370. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW Excite Series 03/04/95) 360. Toshiaki Kawada vs Gary Albright (AJPW October Giant Series 10/25/95) 351. Kazushi Sakuraba & Masahito Kakihara vs Gene Lydick & Steve Nelson (UWFI 06/10/94)

Is there such a thing as a hardcore WoS fan who looks down on lucha fans looking down on Japanese wrestling fans looking down on US wrestling fans?

Eddie wasn't that great in Mexico. I don't think it's a case of WCW luchadores like Psicosis or Juventud where you can argue that they were better in Mexico than they were in WCW. Eddie, for my money, improved while working in WCW. I'm not even sure how much Eddie in Mexico you've seen beyond wanting to make a flippant comment, but it's difficult for me to imagine he looked great compared to Casas carrying him in Juarez, Apolo Dantes looking every bit the same son of a "legend" in '91, or working with Santo in '94.

The same applies to european wrestling. European wrestling never received any of the awards you are talking about there. I also just looked over the last 2 pages of the ***** / **** 3/4 matches thread and there were only 2 or 3 matches from europe there compared to almost everyone having matches from mexico in their list. In fact, lucha is much better represented than WoS or CWA. On the 90s yearbooks, there were only a handful of european matches but dozens of mexican ones. Actually there is near zero discussion on 90s european wrestling. Jim Breaks, probably the most beloved WoS worker, didn't even make the Top 50 in the GWE, while the two top rated brit guys all worked extensively in the US and japan. OJ has written a lot about it on this site but there's not much more discussion than that compared to the endless talking about lucha. Otto Wanz vs. Vader is almost never mentioned as one of the best feuds of the 80s. Wanz and many other deserving euro workers still are' in the WON Hall of Fame. Could it be? Are people not giving european wresting a fair shake? Is there something going on? Do I need to ignore people who praise 90s AJPW and El Dandy but don't even know the likes of Mile Zrno or Alan Kilby? Did the british not import enough US cultural hegemony? Is Meltz a US imperialist? Or could it be that people largely just don't like it/don't feel inspired to get really into it? I think it's as simple as that most people in these circles got into wrestling through North American wrestling. Japanese wrestling is really very similar from an in ring standpoint. The match structure, the moves and holds used and even a lot of the wrestlers themselves (particularly in the 89s and 90s) are familiar to a North American wrestling fan. It's just so much more accessible. The Lucha and European styles are different beasts entirely. Someone used to US wrestling has to pretty much 'forget' how wrestling works when watching Lucha or WoS/CWA. Personally, I watched British wrestling first as a child before being exposed to WWF/WCW later on. I think it's easier to go that way than the other direction. On the other hand, I've always found Lucha more difficult. I've watched a fair few highly regarded matches but just can't get into it at a deeper level. I guess it's like if you speak Swedish, you can have good shot at understanding things in Norway or Denmark but if you went to China you'd have to start from the beginning. It's all just speaking, listening and reading but some languages are easier to flit between than others. I think it's not just the style but the world or "universe". The worlds of NWA, AWA, Mid-South, AJPW, NJPW, even Memphis and Puerto Rico are all interconnected, part of the same universe. Like DC comics or something. Each promotion is like a title within an overarching universe. I guess in this analogy WWE would be Marvel, especially after Vince hermetically sealed it off. Flair in 91-2 is a huge crossover event. NWO is an even bigger one. Lucha and WOS and Wanz don't belong in these universes, they are like I dunno Valiant comics, whatever, some unconnected publication. That's the easiest way I can think to explain why they get less attention typically -- beyond just the style / taste stuff we've talked about. Different tangent but I kind of like the idea that WoS is similar to British comics like 2000 AD or Viz w/ French catch being similar to those French comics that fund the Toulouse rugby team, or Asterisk or Tintin (even if that was Belgian.) But Japan has a robust comic book industry that doesn't quite fit the shared universe analogy. If anything, the success of Japanese comic books further highlights the commonly held belief that the Japanese are very good and copying (and improving things) as opposed to coming up with original ideas. This may be why some fans feel as though Japanese wrestling perfected the wrestling they grew up with, particularly disgruntled fans.

Perhaps a better way to approach this is how lucha fans can help to make lucha more appealing or accessible for new fans. Other people have spelled out why Japanese wrestling has always been more appealing to hardcore fans than lucha; the one thing I would add is that when I first started branching out, and became interested in wrestling from other countries, much of the groundwork had already been done for Japan. You knew which tapes to get because of jdw's pimping posts, DVDVR, etc. It didn't matter whether it was All Japan, New Japan juniors or Joshi, all of the information was out there. Lucha these days is a million times more accessible in terms of how much content is online. Ten years ago there was very little lucha uploaded onto the internet. Where it's lacking is the narrative detail. I tried really hard when I was doing the Lucha History Lessons stuff to find more information about lucha history by doing rudimentary searches in Spanish. People will never be able to follow lucha the way they follow 90s All Japan through commercial tapes and season sets, and the Misawa narrative and Kawada narrative, but if they know as much as they can about Sangre Chicana (for example), who he was and what he was doing in the early 80s, then I think it makes a difference because it creates greater excitement than the name being thrown out there. Before I ever ordered a tape, I remember getting excited about constantly "hearing" the name Kawada or Misawa. You heard it so much that you felt like you were missing out on something by not being part of the tape trading circle. The only luchador that was build up that much was Santo and even then it wasn't comparable to Liger. This hasn't been a very articulate or well thought out post, but I think you have to give people a reason to be excited about lucha.

#345 This was all right, but at the end of the day it was 10 min footage of a backstage brawl. I was surprised by how highly Loss rated this.