ohtani's jacket

The thing is: every single thing you're listing, from the lack of legally-available tapes to the lack of foreign wrestling on television to the language barrier to being in a bubble: all that stuff applies just as well to American wrestlers watching Japanese stuff. Yet clearly they managed to do exactly that, a lot. "Watching Japanese tapes" was the most popular thing for young wrestlers in the late 90s to do together. Why would it work so differently in the other direction? Because Japan didn't have dirt sheets. Instead, there were weekly magazines and coverage in the sports tabloids. And there wasn't a taping trading culture. People were wary of the legal aspects of it, and it was really only collectors who participated in it. And as I said, young wrestlers typically dormed together and followed a fairly rigorous regime. In the tape trading era, Japanese workers were always surprised that foreigners had seen their matches because tape trading wasn't a thing in Japan, and Japanese people in general always assume nobody knows a thing about Japanese entertainment outside of Japan. I always had the impression that Weekly Pro and Gong were MUCH bigger deals in Japan than PWI or any similar publications here. Is that correct? They definitely featured American wrestling at a level not even remotely comparable to how puro is/was covered stateside. The magazines seem really impressive at first because they're at every kiosk and every convenience store and bookshop. The only time I can remember that happening overseas was when I was a kid and every bookshop carried the official WWF magazine along with all the Apter titles, and our local version of the TV guide, and one and only tabloid paper, carrying weekly wrestling inserts. Then you start to realis there's a million different magazines published in Japan about a million different subjects. The wrestling mags do have good distribution, though, even now. They're still visible at most kiosks and convenience stores. God knows who buys them. It's the newspaper coverage that is far less prestigious than we were led to believe when we heard that pro-wrestling was covered in the newspapers in Japan. Tokyo Sports is pretty trashy and Nikkan Sports isn't much better. I have a stack of Weekly Pro Wrestling mags from 2009. That's well past the peak of Japanese wrestling mags, but I had a look through them and there wasn't much in the way of overseas coverage. There was a regular two page column about the US wrestling scene in 1996, weekly coverage about the goings on in Mexico, some historic pictures of Showa era stars and a bit of WWE news here and there. There was a four page spread for an upcoming WWE tour with profiles of the WWE wrestlers, but no real recaps of what was going on in ROH, WWE or TNA.

Huh. Okay. I've never heard that before, but I guess you'd be the one here who'd know. I just assumed that any country with a booming wrestling business would come equipped with an equally booming subculture along the line of our own tape traders and sheet readers. So, I guess they fit the original topic of the thread REALLY well, being in a bubble that kept them even more isolated than happens to wrestlers in America.. There was a subculture. Tokyo is a place that has wrestling memorabilia stores and wrestling themed restaurants after all. There were fan clubs that produced newsletters, and certainly hardcore collectors who hoarded over large private collections. The original JWP sold videos of its shows through mail order, so there was definitely a fan culture there. There was even fetish stuff out there. But there really wasn't anyone out there like Jeff Lynch, or the earliest Internet guys who sold his stuff. If you were a fan of an American worker such as Brody, you went to the shows, watched him on TV and read Japanese books and magazines about him. Only the most hardcore of fans would have sort out his overseas work. A lot of people just like to go to the shows as well, and don't participate in the fan culture. I don't think you can overestimate the effect of the language barrier as well as the bubble that many Japanese people live in. Which isn't to say that there was no interest in overseas wrestling as there were VHS tapes available for sale and rent and a weekly TV show with clipped foreign wrestling, but it was all dubbed over or translated and made easier for consumption. From our perspective tape trading was the only way to see Japanese wrestlers, but Japanese fans had constant exposure to touring Americans in a more accessible form for them. But the big difference is in terms of Japanese fans or wrestlers knowing about American workers outside of the top stars who visited Japan. I would be extremely surprised if the average hardcore knew who Brian Pillman was or Sean Waltman or Too Cold Scorpio the way we knew who Kiyoshi Tamura or Jun Akiyama were. That would really surprise me. I've met hardcore Japsnese fans who could rattle off just about any foreigner who toured Japan, but that was really where their knowledge was concentrated. It's cool as shit talking with Japanese rock musicians about Adrian Adonis and Dick Murdoch, but they're not gonna know a ton about Bill Dundee. Buddy Rose or Tracy Smothers. To be fair, the same is true for a lot of old time fans on the Internet who don't watch Japanese wrestling and maybe only know a handful of names. In that sense, the exposure among Japanese fans to American wrestlers is probably higher in general. I just think there was little exposure to ECW.

The thing is: every single thing you're listing, from the lack of legally-available tapes to the lack of foreign wrestling on television to the language barrier to being in a bubble: all that stuff applies just as well to American wrestlers watching Japanese stuff. Yet clearly they managed to do exactly that, a lot. "Watching Japanese tapes" was the most popular thing for young wrestlers in the late 90s to do together. Why would it work so differently in the other direction? Because Japan didn't have dirt sheets. Instead, there were weekly magazines and coverage in the sports tabloids. And there wasn't a taping trading culture. People were wary of the legal aspects of it, and it was really only collectors who participated in it. And as I said, young wrestlers typically dormed together and followed a fairly rigorous regime. In the tape trading era, Japanese workers were always surprised that foreigners had seen their matches because tape trading wasn't a thing in Japan, and Japanese people in general always assume nobody knows a thing about Japanese entertainment outside of Japan.

I'm sorry Jingus, but the idea of Jaquar Yokota watching an ECW tape is preposterous. I doubt she knew everything that was going on in the Japanese scene let alone the States. i dunno how you'd go about getting an ECW tape at the time. Maybe rent one from Champion. Can't see that happening. I don't think Nitro was ever on Japanese TV. WWE has been on satellite since I moved here, but I don't know about the 90s. I'd venture to say the majority of Japanese wrestlers exposure to American wrestlers was through Americans wrestling in Japan. There may be some exposure through magazines, but even then the women were probably more interested in Lady's Gong. The language barrier makes reading the Observer impossible. The magazine writers were probably more in tune with what was happening in the States. Don't forget, Joshi girls lived in a bubble of training, dorming, training, dorming, wrestling, training, dorming. When everyone was watching wrestling on terrestrial TV, they were out traveling and performing.

What about Savage and Hogan?

When I was a kid just about everyone in the midcard had a foreign object, along with most of the managers. There were even live animals. It was as though Vince was looking to make money in toy accessories, but they swerved another purpose in that week after week kids like me watched Superstars to see Dibiase stick a hundred dollar bill down some jobber's throat or Beefcake give someone a haircut. And then there was always the anticipation of what would happen if they came against one of the main guys on the roster. Vince liked to use the intercontinental title as a stepping stone for the World title. He also liked injury angles and having long time friends or partners fall out with each other. One thing he was really good at were the turns, which were almost always memorable. And he was generally pretty good at repackaging the guy who'd turned heel. I hated the way he phased out each vanquished Hogan opponent, but a few of them rebounded okay like Savage, Andre and Piper. How about trying to rub shoulders with musicians, Hollywood actors and sports stars? He tried that a fair bit in the early Wrestlemanias. A bit of glamour to differentiate themselves from the rest of wrestling. Hogan constantly being portrayed as the best athlete in sports. A fair bit of jingoistic, red white and blue storytelling to go along with his right wing politics. Original theme music, colorful outfits, and recognisable looks for everyone with only slight variations in the tights or trunks people wore. Strong emphasis on finishers. Sleeper holds where the victim raises their hand the third time. Heels in peril tag structure. Escape rules cage matches.

How in the hell would Jaguar Yokota know who the Sandman was? Do you really think Yokota in the midst of training all of the late 80s/early 90s girls, making her comeback and starting her own promotion, had any idea what was happening in the US? There is zero chance that Yokota knew who the Sandman was for the simple reason that there was zero chance that the majority of workers outside the Michinoku Pro guys knew who he was

1995 WWF was the worst. I swear if Bret hadn't beaten Diesel at Survivor Series I wouldn't be watching wrestling today. The two biggest mark out moments of my life were Bret winning at Survivor Series and Rey beating Eddy at Halloween Havoc '97. The first was pre-internet connection for me and the second was based on intermittent access to the internet and some Al Issacs type info about Rey losing his mask. 1995 WCW didn't offer much when we did the Smarkschoice poll, especially with Pillman vs. Badd disappointing. Dylan discovered a good Vader tag with the Patriot, though. I was watching Worldwide at the time, so I wasn't as invested in the shittiness as I was with WWF.

It would take a ton of research to come up with a theory as to why New Japan was more popular than All Japan. I do know that Inoki got some huge television ratings for his worked shoots in the 70s and then New Japan had that hot run on Friday nights with Tiger Mask and Choshu vs. Fujinami in a far better time slot than All Japan ever had. New Japan seemed to have a better deal with Asahi than All Japan had with NTV, which may have been crucial. but whether that was because Inoki was better in the boardroom than Baba is something we don't know a lot about. Given Inoki's rap sheet, you'd have to assume he was better at bullshitting his way through boardroom meetings than Baba, but Baba may have been a shrewd customer himself. No prizes for guessing who blew through their money and who had a reputation for being stingy.

North American tournaments are overwhelmingly disappointing and almost never good, whereas Japanese tournaments are taken seriously and usually produce a handful of great matches if not a MOYTC. I don't think their reputation is unfounded.

Baba typically finished the Angles he started, because frankly he ran very few angles. What Baba didn't do was finish "storylines" that he started. He really didn't think in those terms. Yeah, that was more what I was getting at. But again, it's not like the majority of bookers are any better.

Because I like sports, movies and comic books I guess. Initially, I think it was an offspring of comic books because I got into them around the same time. Wrestlers and super heroes are far more colourful when you're 9 years old.

I'm not sure. It's not something that's been properly explored.

I don't see how you can expect this to be best meeting best when it's not interpromotional.

I enjoy a match every now and again when I think the match was good. I can't understand people who claim to enjoy everything they watch.

I'd just expect to see them later in the match.

The problem I see with that is that New Japan were bigger and made more money than All Japan.

Don't forget that Onita was flat bloke and labouring/doing delivery work to pay the bills until JWP gave him a salesman job. I dunno what it was with FMW, but it's kind of similar to Megumi Kudo working at a kindergarten/daycare between wrestling gigs. Return to civilian life then bleed for everyone's entertainment.

This is silly. In no way, shape or form is English considered "evil" in Japan.

Does that make Jumbo any less, I dunno, Kurt Angle-ish, during that stretch?

Are you kidding me? Djokovic is nowhere near as beloved as the great babyface champions like Bruno. There was an element of the fanbase that was delighted to see Wawrinka go over. History be damned.

I don't think Flair was physically dominant enough to be Serena. Serena doesn't really have the showmanship/charisma side to her to be Flair, either. If anything she's the Brock Lesnar of women's tennis if Brock Lesnar had won the world championship multiple times. Likewise, I can't see how Graf was Kawada. In Japanese wrestling terms, Graf was an ace, which would automatically make her Misawa to Seles' Kawada. My favourite women's player in recent times was Henin, who reminds me of Mayumi Ozaki. Both were short in stature, incredibly skilled and prone to flippant behaviour. My favourite player growing up was Arantxa Sánchez Vicario, but I can't think of a good comp for her.

In fairness to Baba, I'm not sure the perfect booker exists. They all tend to be reactionary, and when they stumble upon a good idea they milk it for every last cent. If they were able to prevent their product from stagnating, the business wouldn't be quite so cyclical. Even the Matsunagas, who deliberately retired their stars to prevent them from becoming stagnant, couldn't transition smoothly from one era to the next. Pro-wrestling is in essence show business, and certainly in Japan was competing with other forms of show biz for TV time. In any form of show biz it takes time for the next big thing to come along, and everything stagnates with time whether it's your favourite TV show, comic book run, sports team, musician or film director. Most pro-wrestling is shoddily booked, which makes Baba better than most, and I also think he has longevity in his favour as he was able to book a number of hot runs over 25 years. There were certain elements of his *promoting* that kept All Japan a solid number two, and he was certainly conservative, but so are "serious and stable" CMLL and they've survived longer than anybody, so is that inherently a bad thing? Another possible criticism of Baba as a booker was that he wasn't great at finishing angles he started, but again that's true of most bookers who don't have an end goal in sight. I wonder if ticket gates and nightly houses don't play a part in this. It's easy to apply film or literary criticism to wrestling and critique the lack of narrative structure, but unlike a film or a play, the booker is making it up as he goes along and not fretting over his story ideas until he's ready to show it to the public. Sure, it would be great if they had some idea of the bigger picture, but their deadline is tighter than any creative type with a nightly show to produce. I doubt many bookers in wrestling history have thought more than a few months ahead, and certainly none of them have had a final destination in mind.

THE ARTHUR PSYCHO HOUR Ep 25 Mike Jordan vs. Spider-Man Ray Crawley (7/15/86) So, we've seen Dave Larsen wrestling as Batman in 60s French catch and now we have Ray Crawley doing a Spider-Man gimmick. As you can imagine, it's a homemade outfit with a spider drawn on it. I love the trunks as they're clearly wrestling trunks and have three white stripes on them. For some reason he's not wearing his mask this time, and yes he did wrestle one time on TV with a Spidey mask on. The cape makes him look like Superman, but other than that he wouldn't look amiss at Pavillón Azteca alongside Batman and Robin and all the other kids gimmicks. The gimmick was short-lived, at least on television, but the match itself wasn't half bad. They wrestled it as a straight up light heavyweight contest w/ Crawley wrestling like any other wrestler. Jordan looked sharp here and a lot of the stuff they did as fluid. After halfway through, it looked like there might be an injury finish when Crawley mistimed a move and landed on his shoulder (real or worked, I couldn't tell), but he kept wrestling and they finished the bout. Fans of the more kitsch side of wrestling may be disappointed that the gimmick didn't come into play more, but on the other hand it was fun watching a guy work the WoS style seriously in a Spider-Man getup. Scrubber Daly vs. Steve Logan (7/3/86) This went for longer than I was expecting and Daly brought I suppose what could be considered his "working boots." He was better than he looked in Daddy tags, but then Daddy tags have a way of dragging down everyone in them. Like many a brain-dead heel, he got himself stupidly disqualified in the finish, but this was surprisingly okay for a bout that could have been like pulling teeth. Bearcat Wright vs. Pete Collins (7/3/86) Pete Collins was another in a long line of useless brothers. I shouldn't be so mean, but there were a lot of average brothers in British wrestling. Walton was trying to pass Bernie Wright off as Canadian, but at least his Mad Max like beard and shaven head made him look completely unrecognisable from his former self. I think they were desperate for television heels as this point having lost many of their best ones to All-Star. It's too bad that Bernie Wright belonged to the useless brother category himself. "Bearcat" was a cool look, but not really a gimmick and he didn't have a character to speak of, and it was a waste of time pushing him on TV without those two things . King Ben vs. Ian McGregor (11/13/86) It's a bit weird seeing King Ben wrestle teenage wrestlers when they kept pushing that his own son was a teenage wrestler. Then again they had him wrestle his boy, which was even weirder. This was one of those bonus matches they tacked on at the end when there was time to fill. Utterly skippable. Keith Martinelli vs. Boston Blackie (Denbigh, taped 1988) Keith Martinelli was a great worker at one stage, but he'd faded by '88. Kind of sad to watch.

Well then, I'm not wrong. Jumbo could have taken the first two falls with any of those moves.