ohtani's jacket

Savage is a favourite of many and has always been popular despite the relative lack of discourse surrounding his matches. He's never really been picked apart the way a Rude or Dibiase has, I assume because he's generally well-liked. I don't know where I would rank him personally but he was the first wrestler I was drawn to and if I went on a binge watch I might be high on him. I don't know why I always feel the need to defend the original poll, but there is nothing about those placings that didn't make sense at the time. Yeah, it would have been nice if there had been higher votes for luchadores, but it's not like we've made great strides in that area over the past ten years. And it's actually unfortunate that a great worker like Ozaki won't rate as highly this time. No list is perfect.

THE ARTHUR PSYCHO HOUR Ep 4 Tony St. Clair vs. Rollerball Rocco (Porthmadog, taped 1988) Two aging vets make a decent fist of having a hard hitting bout. We even got a bit of colour from both guys. Rocco was doing some sort of a coal miner's glove gimmick at this point, and being in Wales and all, it's a really fucking big coal miner's glove. Actually, I don't know what sort of glove it was -- it was a big black glove with metal studs. Rocco used it as a foreign object around this time which had a real WWF feel to it. Kudos to him for flying the flag in how the British style needed to catch up with the American product, but it's far from the Euro style I love. I assume St. Clair cribbing the Doomsday Device was due to crossing paths with Animal or Hawk at some point, but it was a nice string to his veteran bow. Rollerball Rocco vs. Tony St. Clair (Corwen, taped 4/7/90) St. Clair with the mullet. Rocco was just about finished at this point and was breaking down physically, but I've got to say St. Clair is quickly moving up my ranks of guys who kept the flame alive post-ITV. Giant Haystacks vs. Drew McDonald (Pontardawe, taped 4/4/89) Drew McDonald is one of many who have died recently, but this was actually my first time to see him. He looked like a solid performer, but he wasn't going to get much rub against Haystacks. Hopefully there are better matches to come. John Quinn vs. Wayne Bridges (Denbigh, taped 1987) I didn't give this much chance of living up to their Joint Promotions spectacle, but it was actually really good. It was a rounds match and joined frustratingly late, but Quinn deserves a knighthood for what he was able to get out of Bridges. Really underrated worker John Quin -- underrated in the sense that most people don't have a clue who he is, but he cut out a career in the 80s as good as any fringe guy in other promotions. Kung Fu vs. Kid McCoy (Denbigh, taped 2/15/89) By and large, I think the Reslo footage helps Kung Fu's case as being a decent worker; certainly moreso if you only watch his World of Sport stuff, but this wasn't really given enough time to mean anything. Gary Clwyd vs. Tony Stewart (Merthyr, taped 3/29/90) Hey, Reslo had boy wrestling too! This was better than I expected, but the guy I thought was the better worker did the job. Boo!

Steve Grey vs. Zoltan Boscik (9/26/74) This was a one fall bout from when Grey was still an up-and-comer and Boscik was a blue eye. Obviously it didn't have the chemistry of their later bouts, which were sensational at times, but it was a solid contest. My main takeaway from it was that Grey wasn't anywhere near as well established as thought in the famous Myers match. It's hard to say whether that Myers match made Grey, but '75 was definitely his breakthrough year. Steve Grey vs. Zoltan Boscik (9/11/84) Almost 10 years to the day, Boscik was a whole lot stockier and not on TV that often, but he hooked up with Grey to produce a rollicking one fall contest that came pretty close to recapturing the lightning in the bottle from their early feud. I love pissed up Grey more than any pissed off babyface I can think of, but Boscik didn't really cross the line here; it was more of a competitive testiness and I loved every exchange.

Jones was supremely athletic when he was younger. Even when he gained weight, he was still only a mid-heavyweight and wrestled a hard hitting style. The only thing he really did methodically was take apart guys he had no time for.

I don't think it matters that Jones and Rocco influenced the Stampede style for this topic. All that means is that they indirectly raised the work in the WWF. Bret gave a long, rambling reply that touched on more than just the topic at hand. He was more or less saying that Dynamite Kid was better than Flair in the period he worked Stampede. Since he's arguing that DK ushered in a new style of wrestling, it's fair to say that it wasn't exactly new. Regal makes the same point all the time about the DK/TM matches. I'm sure Rocco and Jones weren't the first ones to up the workrate, either, but in this case they specifically made DK what he was. And yes, this only relates to the WWF indirectly but it was part of the same answer.

Every story Flair tells in that podcast is Flair cutting a promo. Bret playing along with it is weird, but they were seldom on the same page for the entire hour. Bret is dour and serious, but closer to the truth, while Flair just riffs and spouts crap all the time. Does anybody really believe his Lloyd's of London story for example? The fish get bigger every time he tells that story.

I don't think Bret is unaware of any of the guys who worked in the WWF during the time he was there. I think Bret has an over-inflated view of himself and everyone who came out of Calgary, but at the same time it's understandable why he'd feel the way he does because the workrate a Steamboat provided is not the same as the Calgary guys. I do think he misrepresented the style of Harley Race, who clearly wasn't in the Dory Funk Jr mold, but I don't think it changes his overall point.

It astounds me that you believed anything Flair said in that 60 minute podcast.

None of the workers mentioned in this thread did 57 suplex variations. Marty Jones and Rocco invented the workrate style Bret is talking about. Bret is simply unaware of it because he doesn't know when Dynamite was 16 years old he was watching those guys tear it up.

I know I know. Its a huge blind spot for me even though I absolutely love the little bit I've seen. I remember seeing the M-Pro These Days Card and then immediately emailing Jeff Lynch and saying "I don't have your European Listings, can you just pick your 10 favorite Johnny Saint matches and put them on a comp for me?" This was over a decade ago but I remember it having some Breaks, Grey, Finlay, Rocco, Clive Myers, and some other guys and I loved it. I have every intention of jumping into the Euro/WOS stuff for this project. I have some discs already but just haven't made them a priority yet. I was poking through your Euro workers thread just the other day actually so I feel like I'll dive into that soonish. Breaks, Grey and Jones are the gateways. I'm in a weird place with the stuff in that I wish I could discover it all over again while a lot of people haven't started.

It took me a long time to appreciate Misawa, and then one day the penny dropped and now I consider him one of the few geniuses in the business. I actually think he's comparable to a Jordan or Sampras from the same era. Kawada seems to have suffered a slight drop in rep over the years. There was a time when he was the guy you were supposed to like -- almost the Japanese version of Benoit -- and I don't really get that vibe now. The Taue stuff always amuses me because if you praised Taue too much back in the day you had the watchdogs on your case.

You need to throw in a few British/Euro workers, elliot. It's one step removed from lucha, and I despair for its representation.

It's completely understandable that Bret has the view he does, and the Bulldogs were unlike any of the Carolina guys (look at their offence for starters), but what Bret doesn't realise is that it originated with Marty Jones and Mark Rocco not Dynamite.

Every time Flair told some bullshit story and did that nervous little laugh, Bret must have died a little bit inside. What are they pretending to be friends for?

She's underrated for sure. She got a bad rap because of the whole "Hotta punts the clown" bullshit. In order to consider her one of the best I think you'd have to have an alternate take on Joshi or a niche view of it, but stick to your guns.

Sit down interview with Triple H ala Vince and Hogan prior to Wrestlemania VIII. "When you say those words, Paul, it makes me sweat."

Regarding the character stuff, they really only played gimmicks in the WWF. Rude had his whole shtick with the robe, "cut the music", the tights, the Rude Awakening, and Bobby handpicking some woman for him to kiss. Ted had the residence, the jacket, the laugh, the bodyguard, the Million Dollar Dream and the hundred dollar bill down the throat. Later on, he had the theme song and the catchphrase "everybody's got a price." It's impossible to say which gimmick was better, but I strongly disagree that Ted didn't wrestle like a "millionaire" is supposed to. Dibiase nailed that shit. I've always considered him a technical brawler. He had the right amount of technical acumen to suggest he had the best teachers and the right amount of brawling to suggest he wasn't an innately superior athlete. Ironically, I think Rude improved when he shred a lot of the "Ravishing" gimmick and became a legitimate asskicker.

I don't know if either girl is all that underrated. This match is a bit of a perfect storm unless you really go on a crusade for either girl.

She may have gotten him confused with Blue Demon Jr. I doubt she meant someone like Black Shadow Jr.

If Big Daddy was half as good as him he'd be in the HOF already. The Vader feud hasn't been discovered properly yet, so he won't rate a mention, but for his niche he's pretty damn good.

Parv, I thought that was a passionate defense of Dibiase and I applaud you.

Maybe they're just another night for Tef, but what really makes Dibiase special? I can't think of much outside of his signature offence and signature laugh, and to me that's not enough. If you can't write a treatise on a wrestler's character they can't be that memorable.

I watched those two Magnum TA matches for the hell of it (the ones from the same day); and while they were cool, there were times when Dibiase came across as both a poor man's Ric Flair & Terry Funk. It wasn't until he took over on offence that he produced anything you could say was definitively "Dibiase." I'm not sure he was enough of his own man to stand out among the truly great performers. He's just a really good worker trying to be passed off as an all-time great. If he'd been able to have matches like that in the watered down WWF (minus the blood) it would have strengthened his case, but Magnum was busting his ass in those matches, especially the Tulsa one, so it wasn't like it was all Ted shining.

THE ARTHUR PSYCHO HOUR Ep 3 John Quinn/Kendo Nagasaki vs. Neil Sands/Tony St. Clair (4/28/87) This was a fairly entertaining brawl. It was goofy, dumb-as-shit All Star wrestling, but enjoyable in the same way McDonald's is if you haven't eaten it for a few years. It was basically an out of control brawl with public warnings flying everywhere and Billy Finlay in over his head trying to keep everyone in check. Quinn was still pretty mobile at this stage and St. Clair is starting to gain my respect for his veteran work. They had some quality dust-ups in this w/ St. Clair doing a great job of blowing a gasket. Sands had been on TV a couple of times in the 70s before returning to the independents and working the tournaments in Europe. He left the wrestling game in '81 but made a brief comeback in '86. One of the most ordinary looking blokes to lace up a pair of boots, but a great contributor to online discussions over the years. Delivered an amusingly dour one-liner during the pre-match promo that drew a chuckle out of me. Nagasaki was in his element working the all-in style, so All Star had all their bases covered here; however, Walton was strangely unethused. At one point he was commenting on Quinn holding the tag rope and uttered: "he's holding it for now... how long, Lord? How long?" It was the oddest thing I've heard him say. St. Clair and Quinn both got thrown out, and Nagasaki and Sands continued the bout alone. Unfortunately, Sands' offence wasn't really good enough to have a memorable stand-off, but it didn't detract too much from a fatty meal of a bout. Sid Cooper/Zoltan Boscik/Mal Sanders vs. Steve Grey/Rick Wiseman/Johnny Kidd (3/19/88) This was billed as a "Continental Rules" triple tag match with sin binnings instead of public warnings. The idea was that if you committed a foul you'd be sent to the penalty box for 1-5 minutes at the discretion of the referee (or, as the MC called it, the "prison area.") The penalty box in this case was two guard rails in a "V" shape. It was an interesting idea in theory, but a clusterfuck in execution. Jeff Kaye had no fucking idea what he was doing and neither did anybody else really. Grey was sent twice for a total of 6 minutes and Cooper once for 2 mins. It would have worked better in a regular tag match where you could have a clear FIP segment, but for the most part it was business as usual until the offending wrestler returned to the apron (!) and not the ring itself. Drama. Eventually, the heels put Kidd through the ringer and he was able to make a clumsy hot tag to the returning Grey, who cleaned house in equally awkward fashion. If it hadn't been for Sanders innovating some fun bumps that took out his partners as well, the entire thing would have fell flat on its face. It wasn't terrible as the heels were fairly good despite Boscik and Cooper being past their best (Walton called Boscik "Zolly" which I'd never heard him do before); the clumsiness can be chalked up to the lack of proper tag structure in British wrestling. Danny Boy Collins vs. Dave Finlay (Cage match, Merthyr, taped 3/29/90) This was the best Finlay/Collins match so far, which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement but they managed to produce some fairly brutal looking stuff within the confines of the cage. Collins finally looked like a man, which was big because manning up has been an issue for him so far. Cool missile dropkick spot towards the end. First of their matches I'd recommend to people who worship at the altar of Finlay.