ohtani's jacket

Do we really need another Flair debate? Flair as #1 is a boring choice. Yes, it's contrarian to vote someone over Flair just because Flair is a stodgy choice, but it's equally heinous to vote for Flair just because he's an institution. I like the passion people show for Flair and that the love can be re-sparked by a promo or television segment, but to me the best approach to the list would be to challenge that passion by watching as many wrestlers as possible, and if you come back to Flair you know that passion is unequivocal. As far as criticisms go, I wish could cricticise/scrutinise their favourites to the level they do Flair, but I've just about given up on that hope. I'd love to know what makes Santo better than Flair, for example, but no-one is ever willing to go in depth.

Wrestlemania XIV was a critical and commercial success at the time it aired. The matches may not hold up in retrospect, but it was an important turning point for the company. I wonder if its impact has diminished over time.

No, he wouldn't. Jim Breaks working as Jim Breaks in the WWF sounds awful.

Promotion style absolutely matters. In fact, I feel so hard line about it that I honestly believe guys do need to learn the WWE way of working. When Jericho and the Radicals first jumped from WCW, I thought we were finally going to see some great matches in the WWF and instead they were really disappointing. It took them a while to adapt.

Like most creators, Baba didn't know how to end things and the Four Pillars thing went on forever. I sometimes wonder what the reaction to 90s All Japan would be if it were happening in real time today. New Japan is often criticised for being stale, too thin on top, and repetitive; what would Twiiter have to say about 90s All Japan? Similar criticisms were being made during the rspw days, and I wonder how it would be these days if people had reason to care about the results and not just the match quality.

People are more interested in Twitter and podcasts these days than they are message boards. Add to that the fact that people are more inclined to read about wrestling than they are to actually watch it and you have a lack of discussion. The original GWE list as done at the apex of message board posting and is one of the reasons why I don't think the 2016 list can improve on it. I will say that sometimes I try to look up the matches you've posted about in the Microscope and can't find them online. If you want to generate more discussion you might need to share stuff.

I expect a Segunda Caida Complete and Accurate for this:

At work/don't care. I'll probably watch any pimped/eventful stuff at a later date.

Breaks has 49 matches on tape. 24 of them aired on the Wrestling Channel and about half of those are on YouTube. Watch his bouts against Cortez. Grey, Saint, Faulkner and Young David, and his other 70s bouts against Boscik, Naylor and Street. If you like that there's a six volume best of floating around. A lot of the original broadcast stuff is partially complete or joined in progress, but it does feature some classics like his sublime carry of Danny Boy Collins.

He came into his own in '88 and was still contributing to the CMLL renaissance in 1997, so the conventional wisdom would be from '88-97. If you're talking about his absolute peak it's '89-90 with his physical peak being '88-91. His form from '92-94 fluctuates as much as his weight, and from '95 onward is his post prime. He gets overtaken by other workers starting in '92, which isn't the case in '89 or '90 where he's balling at an untouchable level. I'd like to see Gregor chime in because he's insinuated in the past that Dandy's '92 decline is overstated, which is an interesting discourse.

I'm sure there are a lot of workers whom WWE/North American focused types don't know shit about. I doubt they give a shit, either. Again, I don't see why the Dandy thing is a big deal just because he was the punchline of a great promo. Bret got in a great line, that's all. Why should we care that Dandy was the butt of some joke in a promotion that misused Mexican talent? From a worker who shares the same dismissive views of Mexican wrestling that most of his fanbase do. None of those things mean shit in the context of Dandy's real career in Mexico. The only time WWE types seek out a match from Mexico is to see some generic crap like When World's Collide because it's Eddie. They're not worth worrying about. It's like being a metal fan and caring that people think metal's a joke because or some hair band, or that they think it's a joke in general.

I think he's clearly better than Arn, but I don't think it's a good idea to go into the matches in that frame of mind. Dandy was a different sort of worker in a different position from Arn. There are plenty of rudos who play second or third guy in trios where Arn can be used as a barometer. Dandy was in more of a Flair position at least in his weight class. The best way you can watch Dandy is to view as much as his 1990 stuff as you can and if you agree that he was the best worker in the world that year then there's your argument for him having a high ranking. That was his peak and everything else is supplementary.

You can count on one hand the number of people who write articles, run websites and do podcasts about lucha. It's always been the poor cousin in hardcore fandom.

El Dandy, Apolo Dantes y Eddy Guerrero vs. Emilio Charles Jr., Pirata Morgan y Ary Romero (9/29/89) A few new faces here. Obviously, there's Eddy Guerrero, who doesn't need much of an introduction. At this stage of his career, Eddy was mostly working the circuit his father had promoted, which included the El Paso, TX and Cd. Juarez areas. He also worked in Tijuana and California. Here's an interview from Juarez TV where he talks about some of the early highlights of his career, including hair match victories against La Fiera and Negro Casas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzns2T2GT-c#t=83 The earliest appearances we have for Eddy at Arena Mexico are on a couple of Sunday shows in late '86. The most notable appearance he made for EMLL in the 80s was on the undercard of the 54th Anniversary Show, which was billed as Gori Guerrero's retirement show and featured all of his sons in action. Eddy teamed with El Hijo del Santo as the new La Pareja Atómica, taking on El Hijo Del Gladiador (Talisman) and El Dandy in honour of their padres. Those of you who are familiar with AAA will know that Pena took the La Pareja Atómica idea and turned it into one of the hottest feuds of the 90s when he had Guerrero turn on Santo and ally himself with Love Machine Art Barr. CMLL had mostly booked Eddy as the third brother in the Guerreros trio, and largely used them on Coliseo shows since they weren't full-timers, but in the summer of '92 with all the defections to AAA, they were desperately short of talent and tried repackaging Eddy as Mascara Magica. CMLL were fairly serious about the gimmick and gave Eddy his first singles push in the company culminating with a title shot against Bestia Salvaje that main evented one of the Sunday night shows, but Eddy wasn't happy playing an enmascarado and followed his brothers to AAA where he did the unthinkable and voluntarily unmasked before the start of his bout. This was a Monday Night Wars style stunt as CMLL owned the rights to the gimmick and Eddy ripped them on AAA TV for forcing a Guerrero to wear a mask. Eddy instantly became a bigger name than he had been, Mando came up with the idea for the heel turn, and the rest is history. Also featured in this bout is Ari "El Gato" Romero, who was a top rudo in Northern Mexico in the 70s and 80s, especially the Cd. Juarez area where he spent years feuding with the Guerrero family. Alfredo Esparza has written about Romero several times over the years, and I would only be pinching his memories if I used those stories, so please take the time to read the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ari_Romero http://www.luchaworld.com/?p=33064 http://www.luchaworld.com/?p=13050 http://www.luchaworld.com/?p=6241 Also featured in this bout is the son of another famous luchador, Apolo Dantes. Following on the heels of his brother Cesar, Apolo had made his debut at Arena Coliseo Guadalajara the previous December. The Dantes family is a dinastia dating back to Apolo's grandfather, Al Amezcua, who wrestled in the 40s and 50s and was the first mask El Santo ever took. Apolo began training for wrestling at the age of 15, and was fortunate enough to be trained by Diablo Velazco before the maestro's health began failing him. He was a mainstay for CMLL in the 90s, remaining loyal to the company during the AAA defections and serving as one of its top tecnicos. The high point of his career was winning the CMLL World Heavyweight Championship in 1995, emulating his father's feats as National Heavyweight Champion. He also had a formidable record in apuesta matches. In 2005, he returned to his roots at Arena Coliseo Guadalajara and became the head promoter there. Four years later, he was pushed out and started his own promotion Dantes Lucha Factory. He returned for another stint at Arena Coliseo in 2011 amid rumours that CMLL was looking to sell up and get out of Guadalajara and was replaced by Satanico in December last year.

On the website it says: March 11th 1978 (Hemel Hempstead, taped 10/11/78) Since it can't have aired before it was taped, I checked the British Wrestling Archive and got this: Making it from January 10th.

Claude Roca & Walter Bordes vs. Albert Sanniez & Pierre Bernaert (8/29/77) Great maestros tag. One of my favourite catch bouts to show up online. The contrast between the teams made this fight. You had two smaller, zippy guys in Roca and Sanniez, a bruiser in Bernaert, who still knew some holds, and the super athletic showman in Bordes. Add to that Roger Delaporte in a patriarchal ref role and an aging Roger Couderc on commentary and you had all the ingredients of a great catch bout the way it used to be. Now that I'm used to the tropes it was particularly warming to see them done in a maestros style. As with all matches of this type, you shouldn't expect a bout that builds to a dramatic climax. Instead, it's about the simple pleasure of a well executed move or a fun exchange. If you love shoot style, lucha matwork, or the maestros style, you should be onto this in a flash. It's basically European BattlARTS meets lucha through a French lens, while remaining distinctly catch.

The following matches were from a special team tournament episode of World of Sport, which, while not the first of its kind, was rare enough for Walton to comment on how unique it was. On paper it was a lopsided match-up with the superstar pairing of Kung Fu and the Royal Brothers taking on Black Jack Mulligan and two heels I'd never heard of, Roy Paul and Terry O'Neill. The heels called themselves The Liverpool Skinheads despite Mulligan being the only one who was remotely skinhead (and that was only because he was bald), while the faces used the generic TV All-Stars name. Vic Faulkner vs. Roy Paul (3/8/78) Roy Paul's get-up! He was wearing wrestling boots, jean shorts, a red belt and a pair of red suspenders. He looked like a cross between a He-Man figure and a model from one of the thousands of British porn mags that flooded New Zealand dairies and stationary shops when I was a kid. Paul wouldn't let Faulkner wrestle his normal match, which Walton lamented but I quite enjoyed since fired up Faulkner is a lot more palpable than smart arse Faulkner. Paul appeared to take the bout, which also pleased me, but fucking MC John Harris told referee Max Ward that Faulkner's foot was in the ropes and the ref disallowed the fall. You're all pro-wrestling fans and you know what happened next. Mulligan was livid at ringside, and if this had been heathen all-in America, I'm sure the Skinheads would have bum rushed the show and beat the shit out of the shitty All-Stars. Alas, the decision stood. Kung Fu vs. Black Jack Mulligan (3/8/78) Black Jack Mulligan has got to be in the conversation for greatest jobber. In his favour is the fact that he always worked competitive squashes, and he had a distinct look and in-ring character despite only being an enhancement talent, but he made Kung Fu look like an absolute world beater here to the point where I forgot that he's not usually this good! Man, did Black Jack eat Kung Fu's kicks. After having his hands tied behind his back, Kung Fu broke free of his shackles (literally!) and beat the shit out of the perpetrator. Mulligan was trying to undo the ring padding and took a head first posting that rung out like the bells on Christmas morning then ate the finish blow to end all finishing blows. That was some Game of Death/Mortal Kombat shit right there. Only Mulligan could make Kung Fu this cool. Bert Royal vs. Terry O'Neill (3/8/78) Terry O'Neill was the captain of the Liverpool Skinheads, and a heavyweight, making his decision to wear the same outfit as Roy Paul even more disturbing. Apparently, they were a regular tag team in the North West, including the big venues at Liverpool stadium and Belle Vue in Manchester. That explains the outfits. I guess they were similar to Les Blousons Noirs. Royal opted to take on O'Neill because Royal's a hero and O'Neill was the heaviest man. Easily the worst of the three bouts with O'Neill being less mobile than the other heels and Royal doing the typical prat Royal Brother shit. According to Walton, O'Neill was also a diver and did public stunts where he'd dive from a 100 feet into a 6 feet pool surrounded by flames. It was hard to imagine a man O'Neill's size pulling off a dive like that and was more interesting than the bout. Terry O'Neill, Roy Paul & Black Jack Mulligan vs. Bert Royal, Vic Faulkner & Kung Fu (3/8/78) Shitty six-man tag, or three aside as they put it. Joint Promotions has the worst six man tags of any promotion I've seen. The faces completed the whitewash by quickly winning 2-0 in a match that was about as necessary as denim shorts with suspenders. Afterwards a pair of local ladies were practically ripping Kung Fu out of his gi. He owed Mulligan a beer for that. Why have the heels go down 4-0? Only Dale Martin would book this kind of shit. At least the first two matches were entertaining.

People were selling it at the time as a shoot style match/worked shoot, or at least the WWE/John Cena equivalent of one, and I thought that was bollocks.

I'll never understand why people are bothered by this. It was a great promo by Bret.

That's not necessarily the case. I watched both cold and thought Punk/Cena was outstanding and Punk/Lesnar overrated.

Y'know something, I think you may be right. It looks like they re-aired the Atlantis/Lizmark/Rayo vs. Kung Fu/Mascara Ano 2000/Universo 2000 trios as well as the Fuerza/Octagon fight. The Brazos match from the same 11/3 TV show is a different Brazos match from the 2/1 taping and looks like it's clearly from a different show than the Octagon match. Goddammit, lucha.

Back to the 70s: Steve Veidor vs. Phil Rowe (10/4/77) You may remember me mentioning the "Duchess" from this episode of World of Sport -- an eccentric female fan who wore a cheap looking Disney princess outfit and gave gifts to the wrestlers on the way to ringside. She was wearing a homemade t-shirt that read "Steve's Lady," so apparently Veidor was her favourite. Can't fault her taste, but Veidor didn't seem that comfortable with it. She gave him a basket of fruit, which he presented to MC Mike Judd, and Judd stood there doing the introductions with the basket in his hand. Unfortunately, that was about as eventful as the match got. Rowe was from Cleveland originally near North Yorkshire, but according to Walton learnt to wrestle in South Africa. This was his television debut and they basically worked some holds until Rowe started cheating. Veidor overreacted massively and drew a public warning, stream rolling Rowe for the win. Afterwards, the Duchess tried to make her way to Veidor's corner, but he looked ready to bolt. Sandy Scott vs. Johnny Kincaid (1/10/78) This had a surprise start with the Scot Sandy Scott absolutely railing on Kincaid from the get-go. It was a squash match for all intents and purposes, but Scott made sure to get his licks in. Kincaid had such a great heel run in the late 70s. It's a shame the racial element made it too hot for television, because I'd actually put it in my top 10 heel runs for the entire period we have footage from. He took a bunch of shots from Scott before a really beautiful gut wrench suplex put Sandy out of business. Kincaid seems like such a nice guy outside the ring, but talk about a guy born to play the heel. Tally Ho Kaye vs. Chris Adams (7/12/78) Well, here you have Chris Adams' television debut for all of you Gentlemen Chris Adams fans out there. Kaye was one of those trusted hands like Cooper or Breaks that the promoters could put with a newcomer like Adams and ensure he got over with the crowd. The story here was that Adams had the judo background but Kaye knew all the tricks of the trade professionally. As far as television debuts go, it was an entertaining bout with some pretty good wrestling mixed in with the heat seeking elements. Adams definitely looked a ton better than he really was in the early part of his career, so there's a testament to Tally Ho Kaye. Kendo Nagasaki vs. Pete Roberts (7/29/77) I'll say this for Nagasaki: he knew how to work a crowd. His manager Gorgeous George was decent on the mic, but after the bell rang it was Nagasaki's ability to pace a performance that really shone. He'd start with some legit grappling, which he was only half way decent at but good enough to look credible, then slowly start backing off as his man took the upperhand. Then he'd begin with the inside moves and cheating and bring the house down. Here Roberts got a questionable fall where it really did seem like Nagasaki's shoulders were up, and he took it out on Roberts by giving him a hard head first posting after the bell and dishing out quite a lot of violent punishment. Roberts was doing a silly "Kung Fu Fighter" gimmick at this time being the era of Bruce Lee and Shaw Brothers films, and Walton showed the limits of his ability to dress this slop up by claiming that Roberts had picked kung fu up in Japan and Korea. At any rate, Roberts used a chop he hardly ever used in ordinary bouts and went after Nagasaki's mask lucha style trying to pull it up over Nagasaki's nose while Kendo fought to cover his face. The crowd were worked into a lather by this point, and even though the schmozz finish was inevitable, it was a great television brawl that I imagine the ITV higher ups frowned upon. If they had a problem with Rocco and the Caribbean Sunshine Boys then I couldn't see them approving of this as it was much more violent than your ordinary World of Sport bout. Gorgeous George, who looked like a member of Sweet during this taping, cut a promo afterwards claiming that Kendo deserved a shot at Tony St. Clair and rubbishing the likes of Roberts as an opponent and Pete got another of his sharp tongued retorts in. It's funny how a guy with such little in-ring personality could have such a sharp wit on the mic. Kendo Nagasaki vs. Pete Roberts (7/12/78) Same match a year later. Same sort of bout, same finish, and just as entertaining. Nagasaki was unmasked and wearing those crazy red contacts that made his eyes look the kids from Village of the Damned. He also did this great bit of schtick where he'd try to block out the crowd noise by covering up both his ears. I'm actually starting to gain a bit more respect for him as a performer. He wasn't a great worker, but he had a well honed act and pushed the limits of what was acceptable on TV. Here he actually beat on a second, which you never saw happen on television. Of course it helped that he was wrestling Pete Roberts, who didn't mind working stiff, but both these matches were wild brawls that would have maybe had some blood if they'd been wrestled in the halls but were otherwise great theatre for Saturday afternoon TV. Brian Maxine vs. Gary Wensor (2/6/78) Fun squash with Mick McManus on ringside at the commentary and both wrestlers making sure to spill out onto the announcing table as a rib. Maxine got on the mic afterwards and cut a rousing promo where he was drowned out by the crowd. Tremendous heat for wrestling's greatest self-promoter. (Note to John: the ITV site has a typo on that last date listing it as 6/12/78 instead of 6/2/78. The Kincaid bout should also be 10/1/78 not 10/11/78.)

I've been noticing a lot more suplexes in the late 70s footage I've been watching. They tend to do them in transition as opposed to setting them up as a big highspot. I think they're kind of cool. They seem like more legitimate throws than pro-wrestling moves.

Some extra bouts from '82: Pat Patton vs. John Wilkie (2/3/82) This was from one of those Davis Cup style team tournaments they'd run between a team of blue eyes and a team of villains, in this case the "Jets" vs. the "Ring Battlers." Despite Wilkie being the "pride of the Potteries," he was too much of a journeyman to really trouble Patton, but they managed to fill in a fun couple of minutes before taking it home. I love me some Pat Patton, so I didn't mind watching this despite the fact it was a bit of fluff. Big DaddyKwik Kick Lee vs. Crusher Brannigan/Tony Walsh (5/11/82) This was actually pretty entertaining. I have no idea whether Maeda understood the significance of Cup Final Day, but it was a hot match nonetheless with the heels going full throttle and Walsh pin-balling all over the place. The awkwardness of Daddy tagging with a guy who doesn't speak English is painful to beyond, but it worked in the bout's favour as I don't think anybody clued Maeda into the fact that this was a bout where he should pull his kicks. Walsh was great and again I lamented the fact that he worked so many of these tags instead of appearing in "proper" television bouts. Brannigan, of LA, New Zealand and Australia fame, was also game, charging about like a smaller John Quinn. Generally speaking, these Daddy bouts live and die by how good the heel performances are, and this was definitely one of the better ones. Marty Jones vs. Bret Hart (11/30/81) We only really saw the latter scoring rounds of this, so I have no idea how good it really was, but if you've ever seen early Bret you'll know he was fairly nondescript with a focus on execution and not much in the way of charisma or playing to the crowd. He tried to play the outside foreign heel w/ his heathen North American "all-in" rules in the same subtle heel manner he'd perfect later on, but it was in direct contrast to Walton trying to put him over as one of twelve children, and so on. Marty Jones vs. Bret Hart is actually a match-up with a lot of potential, but the timing wasn't right with each man peaking ten years apart. Dave Taylor vs. Jamaica Kid (Caernarfon, taped 1982) This was supposedly from the very first Reslo taping on 8/18/82, but I can't confirm that. In any event, it appears to be the first Taylor match to make tape, so if you're interested in that sort of history/trivia you should check this out on that basis alone. Taylor is pretty smooth for such a young worker even in spite of his family pedigree, and Jamaica Kid (or "George" as he was more commonly known) was another in a long line of solid West Indian UK grapplers. Not an epic in terms of structure, as you ought to be aware, but some nice work from a WCW b-show favourite who'd go on to be a staple in the German scene.

garetta's criticisms aren't unique. Meltzer wrote a similar sort of thing in his 1990 Yearbook where he claimed that the only "complete" workes in CMLL were Dandy, Morgan and Estrada, and that the rest of them didn't compare favourably to American and Japanese workers. But the whole "I'm not invested in the match/I don't care about the characters" thing is a two way street. If you're sitting there waiting to be impressed then you're not making an effort to be invested. You can't get into lucha watching a match here and there. If you don't speak the language, can't understand the interviews or vignettes and aren't following the stories or characterisations in the magazines then it takes time to learn about the workers. Watching them on a Yearbook may be enough of an introduction, but w/ a trios like this one it helps if you're familiar with the workers because on paper this is an exciting match-up with six of the best workers on the company and expectations should be high. I think Matt would admit that he struggled to find the narrrative in lucha at first, and now it's like he's been a fan his entire life, but he watched a lot of lucha to get to that point. I can't remember what motivated him to continue watching, but he aptly described it as a journey. The point is that he made a concerted effort to watch something that didn't have an immediate appeal to him. Of course, nobody's saying that you need to do that -- if you don't like something, you don't like it, and that may never change -- but writing matches off for reasons that are patently untrue like these guys aren't great workers or have no character, or whatever, just seems baseless.