ohtani's jacket

If you compare Bryan/Hunter with something like Naito/Ishii from Invasion Attack, which was roughly the same length, the chances are there were more moves and a greater amount of action in the New Japan match and more selling and storytelling in the Wrestlemania match. I'll take your word for it that most New Japan fans are also WWE fans, that may very well be the case. I think New Japan and WWE are pretty much synonymous with Japanese and US wrestling as this point in time.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. You think there are more people in the western world in 2014 would seek out foreign language wrestling with guys who have funny names than would seek out WWE's own secondary product? Really? This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Japanese wrestling is not inherently better than anything. Stop acting like if is. New Japan main events tend to be longer and have more wrestling in them. I don't really see how that's disputable. Who's talking about the number of people who watch WWE or Japanese wrestling? We're talking about hardcores, people who follow and watch wrestling online, and what they think of different wrestling styles. I don't think that Japanese wrestling is inherently better than anything else, but some people do and I don't see the point in pretending that it's not part of its appeal. The original poster asked whether there are people who still believe that modern Japanese wrestling outclasses US wrestling and I assume there still are since New Japan does very well in the WON voting.

Terry Rudge vs. John Carlo (3/14/74) Pre-asskicker Rudge. He did a pretty valiant job of putting over local boy John Carlo, letting him kick out of more than half a dozen finishing moves. Good day at the office in terms of what they were trying to achieve, but not the asskickery you want to see from Terry.

Steve Logan vs. Spencer Churchill (10/10/74) Logan was wrestling twice in one night, so this was never going to be more than a trip to the final for him, but it was a decent enough tussle while it lasted. Terry Rudge vs. John Carlo (3/14/74) Pre-asskicker Rudge. He did a pretty valiant job of putting over local boy John Carlo, letting him kick out of more than half a dozen finishing moves. Good day at the office in terms of what they were trying to achieve, but not the asskickery you want to see from Terry. Reverend Michael Brooks vs. Johnny Peters (aired 8/30/75) Only old-school British wrestling could have a wrestling priest. I don't see how he could ever lose what with the Lord being on his side and all. Father Brooks hadn't been on TV for several years, but worked this quasi-exhibition match on a card which featured a rare George Kidd appearance. Peters was making his TV debut and this was pretty genial as you would imagine with a wrestling priest. Romany Riley vs. Johnny Wilson (2/21/77) More solid heavyweight wrestling. As usual, I enjoyed the effort. It's impressive the depth that British wrestling had in the heavyweight ranks when you have such good matches from the second tier guys.

But by the same token, people who are invested in Daniel Bryan, etc., are going to enjoy the narrative heavy stuff more than people who are turned off by the commentators driving home the story line at every turn. Japanese wrestling has long been an alternative for people who are dissatisfied with the US product. We can drop the term "work rate" if people like, though I don't believe that WWE matches are as work heavy as New Japan main events, The point is that I don't think anything's really changed. People seek out Japanese wrestling because they're sick of John Cena and Randy Orton, etc. I would assume, from past experience, there are a great deal more people like that than fans who can enjoy Cesaro matches on NXT and Main Event and the latest five star Tanahashi bout.

Right, but there's gonna be people who like his earlier albums better.

New Japan matches tend to be longer and denser with a lot more moves, including long finishing stretches with a ton of near falls and big moves. If you don't like the WWE style or are turned off by the booking, then New Japan presents an alternative. It wouldn't surprise me if there are a subset of fans who think Danielson has dumbed down his style in the WWE.

Charles Lucero vs. Blue Panther, WWA World Middleweight Championship, Lucha Libre Azteca 5/9/2004 I didn't love this as much as I hoped I would, but given your love of lucha title matches you'll probably want to include this.

Japan had so many promotions in the 90s that the sheer weight of volume makes it difficult to make a comparison, but I would say that CMLL from 1990 until 1992, or at least the AAA split, was as good as any promotion in Japan. Add to that fun, quality matches from UWA and Monterrey, and the lucha scene was still quite strong in the early 90s. Then when CMLL picked up again in '96-97, it had the best week to week wrestling of any promotion in the world. These days people who watch CMLL tend to fall between those who like to watch the older maestros, who wrestle a somewhat more traditional style, and the young high fliers, but on the whole I'd say CMLL's match quality is pretty average for the number of hours of television they produce, though the wrestlers have been working harder in recent years due to business being down. The indie scene in Mexico isn't very good at the moment either, so the whole scene is spluttering along. The only Japanese stuff I watch are the pimped NJPW matches, which are flawed but basically provide a workrate alternative to the WWE much as Japanese wrestling has always done. Modern WWE is in a different stratosphere compared to the in-ring product I grew up on, but tends to get overrated. I'm not sure any of the scenes are that good anymore. It's more about small pockets of work here and there.

Ray Steele vs. Johnny South (3/27/74) More no frills heavyweight British wrestling. Not everybody's cup of tea, but I've come to like these bouts more and more over time. This was a neat opportunity to see Johnny South as more than just a foil to the Les Kelletts and such. He had a really 70s look, kind of like a balding Maurice Gibb. Since these were a pair of plain old blue eyes amid the glam of television wrestling, South livened things up a bit by needling Steele. Steele thought South was a right bugger and led with the knee a lot, making this a really testy, physical heavyweight contest. Ray Steele vs. Romany Riley (10/10/74) This was another solid contest. I always rag on Steele a bit for his lack of personality, but there must have been a reason why the promoters had him on TV a dozen times in 1974 other than the fact they were grooming him as heavyweight star of great potential. Perhaps the crowds viewed him as a good clean cut lad. He was a fine wrestler, no doubt about that. Nothing flashy just sound fundamental grappling and strength holds that make sense.

Some more... Emilio Charles Jr in '89. Blue Panther in '91. Jim Breaks in '79. Jon Cortez in 1981. Kyoko Inoue in '93. Pirata Morgan in 1989.

I like most of the Steiners stuff against Doom, Williams & Gordy and even Money Inc, but that Sting/Luger match never did anything for me.

Yoshida was 1999. Some notable ones for me: Fujiwara in 1990 and Tamura in '96. Hashimoto in '96. Choshu in '86. Chigusa in '86. Mark Rocco in '78. Ozaki in '96. Pierroth Jr in '92. Steve Grey in '83. Carl Greco in '97. Bestia Salvaje in '92. Arn Anderson and Ricky Steamboat in '92. Windham in '93. Dustin Rhodes in '94. Negro Casas in '97. Satanico in 1990.

Charles Lucero vs. Blue Panther, WWA World Middleweight Championship, Lucha Libre Azteca 5/9/2004 This was a good match, but not a great one. Much of that boils down to expectations. When I first heard there was a Panther vs. Lucero singles match, I started wondering what it looked like and how they worked it. I practically booked the thing in my head. I had fantasies of a match that resembled the 1992 title match between Santo and Espanto Jr, forgetting that these two workers are well past their primes and that Panther is a questionable singles worker in my view. At first the bout was a disappointment, then I watched it a second and a third time, each time shedding my expectations and trying to find a way into the match. Unfortunately, that hook never really came, but the more I watched it and the less I cared about it being one of the greatest matches of all time, the more I began to appreciate some of the smaller touches. The match opened with a ten minute fall, which is a variation on the natural rhythm of a lucha libre title match. An extended mat work fall is more common in trios than in singles matches; ordinarily, ten minutes of mat work would be a mat lover's dream, but while I appreciated that they were able to work a mat fall with an escalating sense of jeopardy, I couldn't really mask my disappointment with the quality of the work. The holds weren't bad, but there was a lot of dressing and undressing of holds, and not a tremendous amount of struggle even if they did perspire a lot from the length of the fall. There was one sequence in particular that really took me out of the match. It was a full nelson sequence where Lucero tried to counter it by breaking the hold and dropping to the mat, where he'd roll backwards and try to catch Panther in a body scissors. Now I like funk in my lucha, but Panther reapplied the nelson and Lucero ended up doing a standard switch, which was really boring and made the whole sequence flat. That may seem like a small gripe, but I didn't like it. Panther caught Lucero with the Fujiwara arm bar then they did a segunda caida where Lucero took a gamble and started running the ropes. There's always a risk when you go to the ropes as a missed move is all it takes to lose the fall, but it paid off for Charles. Then we got a neat opening to the third fall where Panther was aggressively working towards a second submission with Lucero hanging on by his teeth. Lucero's selling of his leg was excellent and his submission counters were well timed. There was a headlock submission where he kept wrenching at it that could have easily won the bout, and I would have rather seen them go with a straight submission win than the surprise small package Lucero scored after Panther had all but submitted him in the ropes. I guess my problem with this was that Panther took too much of the bout and Lucero's win came across as a fluke. It almost felt like Panther coming up to Nuevo Leon to lead some local by the nose instead of the maestro vs. maestro bout it should have been. I don't think it's any coincidence that I've preferred the bouts where Lucero's the vet and takes that lead role. Still, it was Panther vs. Lucero, and well worth your time (and possibly more than that) depending on your take on it.

Leon Arras vs. Ray Steele (6/2/70) This is from the sole episode of WoS we have from 1970, a show which provides us with the only real Jackie Pallo match in circulation. Arras was a school teacher and part-time wrestler who became an actor and writer in the 70s under his real name, Brian Glover. He was a bit of a poor man's Les Kellett and a walking bundle of catch phrases, though I did enjoy his film and television acting the few times that I saw it. This was actually Ray Steele's television debut, and he would go on to appear on television right up until the end in 1988. Walton kept on playing up the fact that Arras had broken Steele's nose in only Steele's third professional fight, as though it was going to play a part in the afternoon's bout, and when Steele got off to a slow start Walton seemed almost miffed. Walton was never one to hide his frustration with a bout, and I can only imagine what the reaction would be if a guy like Gorilla Monsoon acted the way Walton did, though to be fair to Walton this was pretty average. Johnny Wilson vs. Steve Logan (2/4/76) Another television debut, this time Johnny Wilson. Usually, the wrestlers are skinny teenagers on debut, but Wilson was already built. Walton was gushing over how handsome he was, playing on the sexual undercurrent to the Saturday afternoon wrestling, whereas Wilson immediately wormed his way into my heart by smashing Logan with forearms. Wilson put in a good showing here and got Logan to work a bit, which is like getting a donkey to move at times. It was a one fall contest, so a bit on the short side, but Wilson made a good first impression. Steve Logan vs. Johnny Kincaid (2/21/74) Typical example of Logan not wanting to work. Kincaid was better as a heel than a face, so there was that too, but it seemed to me that Logan was dogging it. Dave Bond vs. Steve Logan (2/21/77) This was another less than stellar Steve Logan bout. He had a style that generated a lot of heat despite the fact he would ignore the crowd completely and only acknowledge their existence by staring at the odd fan during the break between rounds, but it relied very much on Logan fueling the fire, and when he wanted to mail it in, nothing would happen in his bouts.

This wasn't your papa's hair vs. hair match, but then what is these days? I was ready to write this off as another CMLL apuesta match that fails to keep the traditions alive, but they actually won me over with their physicality. It wasn't as measured as an old-school hair match where they flail about selling, but they hit each other hard and there was even a bit of hard way blood. They rushed through it even quicker on TV, but at least there was no let up. Rush is like a modern, super athletic version of Perro Aguayo, and Shocker is this fat, middle-aged Guapo, who's rediscovered his admiration for the craftsmanship of lucha through regular brawls. This was spotty, but it was good spotty, and even though it was Shocker's first hair loss they didn't beat you over the head with those cinematic narratives that everyone's so fond of these days. There was just a lot of stomping.

I forgot here that Fuerza Guerrera supposedly left EMLL in August of '86, vacating the Mexican National Welterweight title.

Americo Rocca, Ringo Mendoza y Tony Salazar vs. Negro Navarro, El Signo y El Texano (Hair vs. Hair) (9/19/86) This was a triple hair match from the 53rd Anniversary Show. In my previous entry about the Misioneros, I stated that they left the UWA around this time, but a quick look at the bills we have from this time shows that's clearly not true. They may have taken on more dates for Mora, but they still worked for UWA fairly regularly. There's a record of one more appearance at Arena Mexico on 12/12/86 taking on Chamaco Valaguez, Javier Cruz and Tony Salazar, and for what it's worth there was an earlier match at El Toreo on 4/13/86 where they took on La Fiera, Ringo Mendoza and Tony Salazar. Blue Panther, El Talisman y El Dandy vs. Stuka, America Rocca y Chamaco Valaguez (11/86) This was right around the time that Panther was getting his first big push at El Toreo. He'd gotten his initial break in Monterrey after his trainer recommended him to booker Rene Guajardo. Guajardo was impressed with Panther's skill level for a rookie and not only gave him a small push on the Northern circuit but sent him to Mexico City less than a year after his debut. Within six months, he was working for Francisco Flores and spent the early part of the 80s fighting an array of talented light weights in what was arguably the most stacked under card of any promotion in wrestling history. Throughout 1984 he continued to take minor masks on the smaller shows and then at the end of the year he teamed with Black Man to take the masks of Las Sombras de Plata I & II at El Toreo, his first apuesta match on the big stage. A few weeks later he won his first major title, the UWA World Welterweight title, which he took from El Matematico, and held onto it until 2/86 where he lost it to Black Man. A week later, Black Man took on Panther in an apuesta match and lost his mask in a move that severely hurt the Fantastico's career. Heading into the winter season, Panther took the UWA World Junior Light Heavyweight championship from Gran Hamada on 11/16/86 right around the time this match is meant to have taken place. Talisman had spent much of 1986 as the Mexican National Middleweight champion, having won the title from Atlantis in March. During his reign he defended the title against both Americo Rocca and Stuka. Stuka was a young high flying wrestler from Durango, who'd been trained in part by the father of Espanto Jr. He'd spent the early part of his career wrestling under his real name of Joel Garcia before adopting a masked gimmick based around the World World II German dive bombers; his mask adorned with iron crosses and other Luftwaffe insignia. True to his name, he was an aerial artist with a number of big dives. He didn't reach terribly great heights with EMLL, and as the decade flicked over he became a regular in Monterrey where he lost his mask to Perro Aguayo in a triangle match with El Hijo del Santo. He then worked for a long time in the Northern district as well as for AAA. The Stuka Jr that currently wrestles in CMLL is his younger brother, who was born the year after Stuka debut. Talisman would lose the middleweight title to rising star Mogur on 11/30/86 while his rivalry with Rocca spilled over into another hair match in '87. El Dandy was also feuding with Americo Rocca at this time. Dandy had won the NWA World Welterweight title on 8/24/86 from Javier Cruz and lost it to Rocca on 11/3/86. The pair were booked for a rematch on the 12/12 show. So there's quite a lot going on in this match.

There's not much competition from other promotions. You'd be better off comparing the WWE with other periods in its past.

It's on The History of New Japan vs. UWF Vol. 1.

The UWF guys did challenge Inoki and the NJPW wrestlers when they first showed up on 12/6/85.

Babyface, Cien Caras y Mascara Ano 2000 vs. Lizmark, Rayo De Jalisco y La Fiera (September 1986) This was another trios from before the hair match. Babe Face, so called because when he came up from his native Colima to Mexico City he was like a boy amongst men, was forced into wrestling by his mother because he was a troublemaker. What he lacked in height, he made up for with his bulky physique and he was said to have been one of the hardest punchers in the business. He also showed surprising vigour and agility for a man his size, however these qualities took their toll on his body and he wound up wrecking his hip. He worked for UWA for practically its entire existence and had one last run with AAA in the late 90s, but by that stage he was a wreck and needed a hip replacement. Babe retired for good and now runs a food stall behind Arena Mexico where he serves Japanese inspired rice dishes and Mexican huaraches. Somewhat amusingly, when this career rudo was touring Japan in the 70s and 80s, he'd spend his off days taking cooking classes and that's where the Japanese inspiration comes from.

I did like this more than the RAW match, but mostly because of Dean Ambrose's FIP performance. The Shield still leave me a little cold. Maybe I'm coming at things from the wrong angle, but where are the double and triple teams you'd expect from a well oiled trio? It just seems to be three individuals who hit the ring at different times, and I don't see what people see in Rollins. Was that even a submission he put on Rowan? Once through the combinations and then a finishing stretch was a bit hollow, but this isn't two out of three falls I suppose.

Watching this again, this really was a sterling performance from Triple H. I can't say I've watched a hell of a lot of Triple H matches since I stopped watching the product religiously in 2001, but the attention to detail here lived up to the nickname of the "Cerebral Assassin" and I can only imagine that if he'd worked more like this through his career that he'd have a better rep as a worker. One thing that I've noticed about modern WWE is that attention to detail. Sometimes it comes across as forced, but for the most part there's a lot of thought put into match layout and logical and interesting spots. Another thing I liked about this was that it was put over as a hugely important match without being a show stealing main event. The scale of the match was perfect.

Americo Rocca, Cacharro Mendoza y Kung Fu vs. El Talisman, El Dandy y Guerrero Negro (September 1986) This trio of El Talisman, El Dandy and Guerrero Negro are sometimes referred to on the internet as "Los Bravos." The more famous version of Los Bravos was Fuerza Guerrera, Talisman and El Dandy, a trio which ran from 1985 through to some time in '86; and while I've seen a magazine cover that also calls the Guerrero Negro version Los Bravos, I'm not sure how often they tagged together or how long their association was. Talisman and Dandy often appeared without Fuerza, especially on smaller shows, and it's possible that they gained a new partner along the way. Guerrero Negro was a talented wrestler from Monclova, Coahuila, who was brought to Mexico City by Herodes. Apparently, he didn't adapt to life in the capital so well and returned to Monclova some time after the 1985 earthquake, so whether he was working full time in the Federal District at this point is unclear. In the Coahuila area, he had a long running rivalry with Remo Banda, who later became Volador/Super Parka, and the two had several apuesta matches. Negro wrestled for CMLL up until 1991 and then worked a bit for AAA through to the end of the 90s. He then suffered a stroke and was in poor health for some time before his death in 2006. Kung Fu was a veteran worker who had made his pro debut at the end of the 60s. During the mid-70s, he capitalised on the kung fu craze by changing his gimmick to a masked martial artists fighter and had success in EMLL both in singles and teaming with another practitioner of the martial arts, Kato Kung Lee. In 1979, they formed a trio with Satoru Sayama called "El Triangulo Oriental," a forerunner for the UWA trio they formed with Black Man, "Los Fantasticos." The Fantasticos were one of the most exciting trios acts of the 80s, working a fast paced, all action style that was a perfect blend of high flying, martial arts kicks and lightning quick lucha exchanges, but by this stage they had broken up and gone their separate ways. Kung Fu moved back to EMLL, Kato Kung Lee was working for Mora in Tijuana and Black Man stayed with UWA. So long as he was masked, Kung Fu received a solid push from EMLL. He won the NWA World Middleweight title from Gran Cochisse on 10/17/86 and again from El Dandy on 10/7/87 before losing the belt to Atlantis in 1988; a rivalry that would culminate in Atlantis taking his mask on a 1990 Arena Mexico show. This was in stark contrast to his partners, who lost their hoods shortly after breaking up, but once the public realised how old Kung Fu was, his career took a steep nosedive. He also died relatively young, just shy of his 50th birthday, from a heart attack.