Grimmas

There's a lot going on here. Let me ask a few questions, the first of which may have been covered before. What makes for a good heel then? What about Tito Santana, someone who lived and breathed his shine-heat-comeback structure, who can talk about it very distinctly now and the reasons behind it, who was frustrated when facing heels who wanted to wrestle him evenly in the shine and not cheat to take the advantage to start the heat. Wouldn't he understand his role so well on the other side of the coin? Do we have reason to believe that? Also, I still want to know what elements of Martel's work as a heel weren't up to snuff, the specifics? I think it's worth looking at with that in mind. That's different than saying "He did these things well. Those things were not important as a heel." I want to know what he DIDN'T do well as a heel. I'm not at all against Martel being considered a better babyface than Steamboat either, btw. You've just raised general process points that are interesting to me. Tito is great for sure as a babyface. Never being a heel does not hurt or help him. He may had been a great heel, but we don't have that. We know he's a great face and he will do well on my list. I haven't watched much Martel as a heel in a while. I don't remember seeing very good matches. I think part of Martel's problems as a heel stem from not having the right offense? I don't know, I would need to watch more. Has anybody watched Model era stuff in a while and can point out why he was so much worse as a heel than a face?

Minis are great wrestlers who have entertaining matches. To not use them, is to be like Vince and not use luchadores in the 90s. As for Ventura, who says he is done? Ventura is my top manager and top heel colour man, as well as the host of The Body Shop. Look for his in ring time to be limited, but not for Ventura to go anywhere.

My argument is that Martel is so great at selling, gaining sympathy, fiery comebacks, flashy offense, making everything look cool and his look that as a total package he trumps everyone else. He has the great matches to boot. Martel is the perfect babyface. Yes he had a run where he was just ok, where he was a heel. All of those great things do not translate well as a heel. Here is the thing with comparing him to Steamboat. Line for line, he was a better babyface. Since Steamboat was never a heel, by default Martel was a better heel too. I'm really thinking I am putting Martel above Steamboat. Of course nothing is final, but at this moment Martel is the top babyface for me. On the contrary to that I don't know how I could put Martel above Kobashi or Mysterio, so I may need to do some rethinking here.

Not when the person is a naturally awesome babyface. Sure maybe try it, but after it didn't work sticking with it for 5 years is horrible booking.

I'm all about innovation. I don't really want to hold bad booking against anyone if i can avoid it.

The problem is, he is not a heel. No matter how many opportunities he got, he was not a heel. It's horrible booking. Martel was great as a babyface from the late 70's till he turned heel in 89. That is a ten year run as a great worker. Then he turns heel, is ok until he gets a second babyface run in 98 where he is awesome again until his career ending. There is no point where Martel is not awesome as a babyface. It's just shitty booking that made that part of his career just ok. I find it hard to punish Martel for that. As for Flair, I'm not going to say he sucks because he was the worst wrestler in the world in 2005. He's old and broken down. Now I will not use this stuff as a negative, but I am more than ok to use the fact Lawler, Funk, etc.. were great with horrible booking or being old as positives for them.

I would think more the Flair series of matches propping Steamboat. Martel was just ill-fated as a heel. I'm not holding that against him, but I am not sure if others are. Rey as a heel sucked too. We never really got Steamboat or Tito as heels. I don't know if I want to use bad booking as a case against somebody.

On the last Pro-Wrestling Super Show and the upcoming Excite Series we talked greatest babyface ever. I like Rick Martel, but there are others like Ricky Steamboat, Tito Santana, Rey Mysterio and Kenta Kobashi who are right there too. Two questions, which is the best babyface of all-time and secondly where do they rank next to the other great babyfaces? Parv made the point that Martel might be the better babyface, but Steamboat will be ranked ahead of him. What do you folks think?

Ok, if the question is what songs to listen to in the car, that is different than best theme song. On that criteria, Raven's "Come Out and Play", Hogan's "Voodoo Child", Eye of the Tiger would be the top three.

Guy 10 years into retirement takes multiple insane bumps and chairshots without selling a thing (I know most of them were probably tricks, but still). And despite all the death spots, I feel no hate. Vampiro hates Pentagón Jr and the first thing he does is... hit him? Nooo, run into the stairs. Yeah he's being chair-shot to death but he's not selling it so who cares. Yeah he's dropped into thumbtacks but he inmediately gets up so who cares. I really thought I wouldn't ever see a more stupid match than Chyna-Ivory, but this is worse. He rips Pentagón's mask, he's really close to inflicting him the ultimate humiliation... and then nothing happens. No more mask-ripping. Another stupid bump. Post-match angle that makes Viridian City's gym leader reveal look like a storytelling masterpiece, Russo booking at its best. Basically, Vampiro is testing Pentagón Jr. (or at least in Pentagón's mind because he doesn't seem to know who his master is) during all the show but doesn't say a word just because SWERVE. Hmm... the match actually hints at the post match angle. All those things were not supposed to be hate, but a test. He was trying to make Pentagon Jr more evil, not destroy him. It's not the best thing ever or anything, but saying there is no hate in the match when the post match angle shows why is silly.

Maple Leaf Wrestling August 6, 1983 at Memorial Gardens in North Bay, Ontario 1. Ben Bassarab and Masa Fuchi fought to a time limit draw @ 15:00. 2. "Outlaw" Joel Deaton pinned Nick DeCarlo with a big boot @ 4:06 3. Tiger Conway Jr. pinned Paul Christy with a flying headbutt @ 7:51. 4. Ivan Koloff & Greg Valentine w/ Don Carson def. Wahoo McDaniel & Buzz Tyler when Valentine pinned Tyler after using brass knuckles @ 16:24. Intermission: Maple Leaf Wrestling will return to North Bay on September 9th and will feature a rematch between Wahoo McDanieil & Buzz Tyler vs Ivan Koloff & Greg Valentine in a North Bay Street Fight. 5. Dick Murdoch pinned Masked Samurai @ 9:31. 6. Chicky Starr & Bobby Bass def. Rocky Johnson & Stephen Petipas after interference from Cuban Assassin @ 12:21. 7. Leo Burke pinned Cuban Assassin with the leg lariat @ 11:00. 8. Rick Martel & Tony Garea def. Jesse Ventura & Mr. Saito when Martle made Ventura submit to the Boston Crab @ 18:41.

The Vampiro-Pentagon Jr much was inanely good for having Vampiro involved in it. The post match angle is fine within the context of lucha underground. To make sure Pentagon Jr is evil enough he had to test him in the ring and now Pentagon Jr is ready for whatever evil plans Vampiro has in season 2.

Fabulous Rougeau Brothers theme is the greatest theme ever that isn't about Mounties.

Well I'm in total agreement there. Which is why I don't understand the "habit" excuse of watching Raw. I can see wrestling as a habit but why is Raw a habit? You can just as easily get your "Monday night wrestling fix" in a myriad of other, better ways. I agree, I don't get it. However I see people say that all the time.

If that happens then Vince is more out of touch than I thought and it would ruin the current joy I am having with the WWE. Let's hope this is false.

Since when does Cena not go for those split reactions? Cena does not struggle to get the crowd to react the way he wants, because they react the way he wants already.

Maybe not here but there is a large number of people on the internet who do. And force themselves to watch the full 3 hours live so they can all get together and circle jerk about how awful it is in a chat or forum. Do I give a shit about other forums? No, I only go to pwo and that is not why people watch Raw here. Clearly people who would shit on it each week, don't watch and watch stuff they enjoy instead.

Funny on Smackdown they needed Prime Time Players to have a partner to take on A New Day and who did they come up with? Mark Henry of course. I have no problem with Henry in this, because he is awesome and so are the teams, but it's kind of funny.

Let's not go crazy here. It was a pretty good Raw, yes. However, was it a greatest Raw of all-time? Not even close. Also, the reason there is no thread is because someone posted about this week's Raw in this thread, instead of starting a new one. It has nothing to do with the quality of the show. People don't watch for the sole purpose to complain, they watch out of habit and out of love for wrestling.

I'll take Abby from 28-31 and Hansen from 30-31

Is anyone available October 31st?

All I have is a few week feud to help establish Leo Burke as the next mega star in Canada. He'll get some big time TV doing promos. Probably some kind of fun video skit as well.

I think when people are fighting for the love of the WWE or impressing the fans it is hard to be attached then when people are fighting for revenge for a championship.

I never thought about that before, but that is probably pretty true. What a weird thing, not be able to work short matches well when longer matches are so amazing by him.

When I saw this post I thought Parv was making a case for Brisco at number one. Since I can't make it at that time, is there a link to watch this match some other time?