Benbeeach

I think GHC Champion Kobashi is almost as perfect an ace champion representation as I can remember seeing in wrestling. (Although Misawa is right there) Tons of vulnerability with enough steadfast assuredness you'd want out of the guy representing the best of the company (and it felt de facto Japan) at the time. He sold big, emoted big, had the giant put 'em away offense (so the anti steamboat in this sense). The "he annoyed me and was too far gone by the the time NOAH rolled around" always struck me as odd. His matches had tons of variety by then and weren't all mindless head drops and overkill. Quite the opposite a lot of the time. Kobashi was an excellent champion ace, who then transitioned into a really good elder ass kicker. Cancer probably robbed of us of the more grumpy miaswa era kobashi. Shame he couldn't have given that rub to a wrestler better than Rikio Kobashi's career and character arc feel as complete as any wrestler's. Maybe his middle, late 90's champion run seems a tad shaky (granted most workers shaky runs aren't littered with anywhere near as many good matches) but as others have argued, he wasn't the man yet. How else is a character in transition supposed to act. Kobashi getting points off for not being Misawa or Kawada sounds unfair. He wasn't supposed to be, he was Kobashi, and a damn good Kobashi at that. Taue was always Taue and no one ever faults him for it. Akiyama probably would have been better served being Akiyama a lot earlier on than he was

I really think the word modern helps shape this. I think there's a lot of nostalgia and thought processes associated with the old school cage match that brings about certain feelings that may (aren't) necessarily there with the Ladder. I'd ask the question what are the inherent plusses and pitfalls of each that determine what's better (or what you prefer). As the "standard feud ender" I guess I buy it, but I don't think that's a slam dunk argument. Kane and Undertaker had an inferno match, was fucking garbage. Sabu and Terry Funk had a barbed wire rope match, thumbs firmly in the middle. Sasha and Bayley had an ironman match, was solid. Feuds can end all types of ways, good and bad. Are their certain practitioners, wrestler archetypes in each type of that match lead to one being usually better than the other? I get a more, methodically paced, punchy hate filled vibe from the pro cage match crowd and anti mindless high spot from ladder detractors, sometimes one in the same. I've seen Kurt Angle moonsault off of the top of a cage. I've seen Joey' Mercury's face explode from a ladder shot (could fall into the mindless high spot category if one so chose) Like others have said, perhaps the two best types of each particular match both occurred in 1994 (escape cage variety, and even then I'm sure there are other contenders, reluctant hate filled brotherly love brawl doesn't exactly typify the cage match proper in my eyes). What was better? The "a ladder doesn't make sense in a wrestling ring" sentiment kind of doesn't fly with me. I get it on its surface, but it's pro wrestling man, we've already suspended so much. There isn't much that can't be folded into the canon. There are certainly enough quality ladder matches to have justified and earned their keep in the long haul. How does a top 10 cage match vs top 10 ladder match list compare to one another. I think there would be a lot of quality in both lists. Modern cage vs. Modern Ladder sounds like a wash for the ladder match, but who knows if that's booking or inherent failings. I don't think Kevin Owens vs. Finn Ballor would've been better off in a cage I don't think JBL vs. Big Show quite works with a ladder I have no idea how Jeff Hardy vs. The Undertaker is worked with the opposite gimmick. Could have been just as good but I don't know

Wondering what the great mainstream website with wrestling content is? Not that Grantland was it by any means, but were the Rolling Stone Okada interviews that much better? (although hearing Rosenberg opines of the smart, but not THAT SMART wrestling fan was always fun) What'd you even say was Rembert's genre? One article he's on the plane with Obama, the next he defines the word "swoll" (as a black man, it almost brought a tear to my eye) He was all over the place, and it was excellent. Sites where Zach Lowe, Wesley Morris, Pappademas, Barnwell (and Mays because one without the other wasn't exactly whole) and Rafe Bartholomew, Jonathan Abrams, Greenwald and Ryan all exist in one cohesive place, just DON'T EXIST. Never really have, not sure when they will again. To just dismiss it as "well it was so-so a lot of the time" is to completely sell it and what it did short. ...no one forced you to read the Shea Sorrano Articles. Jason Concepcion and Amos Barshad were RIGHT THERE.

What is the one stop shop pop culture and sports website with nothing but excellent muffins that I should now be reading instead?

holy shit at del rio

Also this was dumb, that's as nice I can put it. Thanks for the entertaining last 7 pages guys. I've nothing to add. People all made some great points. As horrible and sad as is the phrase we all hate hearing, it's what brought us here. "It's all subjective" Even our would be objective project, can't escape that. Make a list or don't make one, to each his or her (oh who am I kidding) their own. The quantifiable objective greatness that can't be denied . . . that also kind of doesn't get, or have the time for lucha and joshi, just spells out its own fatal flaw. The discussions about discussions are almost more interesting than the wrestlers themselves. The project about which criteria is actually important when determining greatness seems more worthwhile than ted's aggregate #55 census score over 30 lists or whatever. But I'm just a guy who comes here to chuckle and do brain exercises once in a while, what do I know

Can I like lurk on this board? This is incredible

Attitude is always shaky ground, but like you said, it was in jest. I don't think race is a complete non factor, but I also don't think England is living in the 1600s either . . . this is getting off track

JBL's title win is quite possibly the most baffling thing I can ever remember watching as a youth. Was literally out of nowhere. I can't think of another instance like it in wrestling history. March he's a wily old vet hand, with less cred than an IDK Hardcore Holly (for similarly recent at the time old stalwart title challengers) and then April he's a completely new (in the ring, out of the ring he'd always kinda been JBL) character and World Champion. Was more confused than enraged, but by the time he dropped it to Cena I thought he earned it. It's no where near the "worst reign" in my head as JBL brought the wood every single time he was out there for those 10-11 months. Plus the Cena I quit match after that. But definitely could've been a contender given the auspicious beginning but through sheer attrition, doesn't qualify for me. Only real answer here is HHH. Not even sure what the obvious answers outside of him are. Maybe Booker, maybe RVD but I don't think any of us are convinced. HHH beating Orton for the title felt finger poke of doom-ish (small scale) in a "oh this crap again." Liked it by the time Batista was whooping his ass every week but it certainly felt like forced medicine in the beginning. Finger poke of Doom would count if I watched a second of WCW after that, but at 8 years old, I kind of saw the writing on the wall right then and there. Won't cry any tears when Seth's is over, although it feels like a HHH 99 run, where this shaky reign will make it easier to buy him as a credible champ for the next go round. Nobody thought HHH looked out of place as champ in 2000

Japanese crowds are passively racist and Kawada's straight outta compton . . . he's looking like my number 1 vote now

In this thread I'm being made to believe Ole Anderson and Stan Hansen are above outsmarted, wobbly leg goofy stooge selling. Those guys have never done the kind of trickster comeuppance segments Rey matches get built around. Sure. Faux MMA Deadman Taker, Big Show, and Brock Lesnar were able to have good matches with Rey despite the obvious size disparities. "Would Bruiser Brody's tag partner sell for him" sounds like a horrible way to judge a worker. A luchador at that. I think a ton of Mysterio's candidacy is based on the way he was able to have consistently good matches with big (almost always lesser) workers. His formula and the variance therein is/was great. Rey is undeniable.

I always got the vibe that Casas was an effeminate character but never knew if that was the intent or not. There was always a certain skip with him, the way he'd throw a dropkick, a very wink wink aspect to his offense. Wasn't sure if it was some cultural nuance that was lost on me or not but OJ's clarification has removed some of the haze. In most cases you give me grizzled work horse great worker vs. great worker with the 'flair" so to speak, of casas and it's a slam dunk for the latter. (Not to say Satanico was some emotionless stiff, because he obviously wasn't) In this case I'm not so sure. I've seen more of the great Casas matches than I have Satanicos, so it would be a tentative vote for him, for now.

She'd probably be in my top 3 female workers. Am I probably crazy for this. I do not care

This all stemming from Kawada's seeming inability to work interesting meaningful 60 minute draws and why this isn't brought up enough as a discredit (or just plain old critique if we're being fair), in which he a ) was never really booked to work, and b ) actually performed extremely well in given the small clip he was shooting from is ludicrous and extremely laughable. It's just not a real criticism. If the idea was that Flair did it better (or at least had better practice at it), I don't think anyone would argue against it, but it's not an argument in the other direction anyone was making to begin with. Using the 60 minute draw barometer for a worker who peaked in the mid 90's seems really asinine and digging for diggings sake. Why doesn't anyone bring up and denigrate Bret's 60 minute draws in the 90s when discussing his candidacy, oh yeah, because they didn't happen (often enough to the point we'd make a sticking point out of them). Same for Kawada's lack of Waylon Mercy's and George Souths. They didn't really exist, but when they did, he excelled. Not much more you can ask for. (well he did work spivey, but that's not the point) The fact that JDW's gotten 3 pages out of it despite all of that is amazing. I think a more productive argument would have been how well Kawada compares to other GOAT candidates going LONG in general. There is actual meat to that argument rather than some arbitrary old carny egg timer match. "Misawa/Kawada wasn't always a hit (news to me) like Flair/Steamboat was (also breaking f'n news to me)" is a good wild conversation starter, but not one I'm sure is based in some sort of concrete reality. There are real things that we can keen on in regards to Kawada and dissect like ppl have mentioned. Best tag worker ever, psychology, cut offs, aura, etc. Time better spent on things such as these I'd reckon. With life being so short and all. ...also am I the rare member who sees some merit in the Brody/Flair broadway? If for nothing else, a pro in the Brody wasn't exactly a worthless toolbag in the ring and there was a good worker beneath all the extrinsic gimmick protecting column.

...is he THAT much better than Sting?

it's short sweet and to the point. A very solid match.

Ditto. I'm not sure exactly how to describe what he did to change his style, other than working in more catchmoves (not catch-wrestling, but like the movez equivalent to catchphrases that are hit the same way every week; is there even a designated term for that concept?). Signature Spots? Probably a better phrase for it but I'm drawing blanks. Sell me on Rey Mysterio is something I never thought I'd see on a message board but I guess there's a first time for everything. Not even sure where to begin.

Sort of like the difference in the way a clothesline is used in the west vs. a lariat in the east

Was an incredibly cool character. Wrong place wrong time

At some point every old timer goes "...fuck it, I'm Foley now" and it's always entertaining. A true pro will always bleed for us, when they have nothing left. The ecchymosis on stings arm was gruesome, but put a sort of sick perverse smile on my face

demolition derby sting is sneaky guilty pleasure. No idea what to make of any of that after the injury (work/shoot?) Before hand I dug it. The table bump was good booking, makes it believable that Seth could dominate after going 20 with Cena, also needed to happen because your stout young champion shouldn't be getting dominated by a 50 year old for extended time no matter the circumstances, even if Sting has veered into almost mythical undertaker level strength booking in the past. He damn sure isn't that guy anymore. ...kane, ending a PPV, in 2015. Just gotta laugh and chalk it up at this point. It is what it is, we know what we signed up for

Simply a worker who was bigger than the moves he did. I agree with the in the moment sentiment. 10 years ago Aries vs. Punk is a masterpiece, from entrance to final promo. Master class stuff in all the aspects of pro wrestling you care about. Now? Still good, great even, but there is (was) an emotional investment there that went far beyond the moves. While I'd argue AJ Styles has become a much better worker than simply a guy who does great moves . . . it is still kind of in his name

Putting qualifiers on literal broken backs is a level of internet criticism I think we'd all be better off without

This is an interesting comment, because I can't think of a wrestler who tried things that he wasn't good at in ring as consistently as Punk did. I do think that ties in to what made him successful, in that he had ego/hubris enough to say "I'm gonna do this springboard every match. I'm gonna do this elbow drop every match" and not really care or be aware that it didn't look particularly effective or compelling. That being said, I have a hard time thinking of another wrestler I'd consider on the same level as Punk (I generally think he's pretty good) that forces the audience to witness his limitations as often. Pretty excellent observation. He'd be in my 100, higher than even I would think initially just because he is a favorite, and it's in large part despite how shitty a rana he has. Awful a moonsault, less than convincing strikes. It does say something how over he and his matches were despite how . . . bottom tier his execution was (for a good/at times elite worker)

Not the worst things to rely on as a wrestler