Benbeeach

AJ Styles, spectacular spots, devoid of meat and potatoes I think is a misnomer if you've ever actually watched him in any sort of depth. His spots are excellent, but the idea that he's a guy just running through them not focusing on a story, selling, or structure, is frankly lazy. There are plenty of guys who fit this description, AJ is better than all of them. This is a fair criticism of . . . 07 PAC or something, not AJ Styles

Good point and the case for Muraco builds. Hard to argue against that

Definitely the greatest squash match wrestler ever. Prob a top 5 signature move to finisher combo as well

For what it's worth, Vader deadlifting Takada into a powerbomb in UWFi didn't look cooperative at all. It was awesome

Sounds weird given stature, but Inoki

Yes, because that wouldn't be true.

The horrible way WWE booked him leaves a bad default memory for me. Also, I never enjoyed roided up Rey as much as I did smaller athletic Rey. He's someone I'll have to go back and review, but at first glance I'd have him way down my list. From 02 to 2010 it didn't matter if he was curtain jerking or world champion (that's quite the variance) he was having quality matches night in and night out for years. It almost . . . how do I put this, isn't something you can review so to speak? 10 matches off a youtube from various years, isn't going to put the output and consistency into the proper context. But in short of a time machine, not sure what else there is to go off of sometimes. He's the best TV wrestler ever.

The idea that maeda, fujiwara, takada, han and tamura (maybe) don't matter is laughable.

No one can see everything, everyone takes breaks at the time they take breaks for the reasons they take breaks. But it does give me cause to pause when people say things like "I'm going to to have to dive into this Misawa guy and the four corners" or "i'm probably not a lucha guy" I know 99% of the board knows what the hell they're talking about/looking at whether they've seen certain stuff or not, and certainly wouldn't want to out and out question the integrity of anyone's list (in two years), but it would be weird to me making a greatest basketball players list where Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were question marks, but those Adrian Dantley and Rick Fox threads had 70 plus replies. A guy like Jumbo, or Santito isn't going to need help with strategic voting, but I, for example can name 15 luchadors off the top of my head better than someone like Tully Blanchard, quite easily, and I love Tully. I can see situations like that where people can consciously, unconsciously, subconsciously try and shape their list to better reflect what they think the aggregate list could would and should look like in there eyes as a whole

What is the argument against Rey as a top 25 guy from the "not as high on him" crowd?

In a world with no Danielson, he's the best US indy worker of that entire generation, and spent huge chunks of that time, without the opportunities or infrastructure of his peers (his doing of course, but a man's gotta eat) He's a top 150 guy, if not top 100, if not top 50, I'm ABSOLUTELY SURE of it. If he's not a top 100 guy it's not because he didn't possess top 100 talent, top 100 offense, selling, structure, innovation, etc. Just spent his formative years . . . in hell. It's the only case against him.

Awesome, almost homerun of a wrestler. Whether you get it the first time you watch him, or the 25th, you eventually end up walking away with the idea that this guy is, if not an overall phenomenal wrestler, at least phenomenal at tons of aspects of pro wrestling (is there a better, bigger base outside of mexico? In Mexico?) Ceasaro is the real deal, and his indy work is/was top notch as well. There are growing pains, but seeing a worker improve match by match, year by year, I don't think hurts them in something like this. He actually has TONS of output, on tape, and is nearly 10 years deep into this thing. If the ballot is due in 2016, I'm not saying he's a mortal lock, but of guys who have debuted post 2000, he has to be super high. Him being better than Danielson is hyperbole. The last two years, yeah, I could see that, but even then it's close. Have no problem saying he's someone who hopped over a guy like Samoa Joe or Chris Hero, easily, as time progressed.

^ Legitimately didn't see any of that when I was watching. The match certainly wasn't a masterclass teaching in any aspect of pro wrestling, but was largely very inoffensive. Was expecting some quasi shooty non cooperative Brody/Mascaras interactions, but they were harmless. Not actively good, but far from some of the worst stuff I've ever seen. Brody wasn't super giving, but did give the impression that the luchas would have to work for everything they got, which isn't the worst trait to have. Some guys you work more evenly with than others. Again, that match isn't bolstering any of those 4's GOAT resumes, but I don't even think it's an actively bad match. Place holding, card filling, perhaps, but again, inoffensive. Can reach brody hyperbole at times, idk some perspective from another viewpoint I guess

For what it's worth, stoic is Misawas's MO. He's the ace, it's the rest of the 4 corners and Akiyama have to get up for him, not vice versa. It's one of his more unique traits as a worker, he's able to elicit and garner such a strong reaction, while essentially looking like he's been unceremoniously roused from his 3 O' clock nap. The more you watch, the less you'll think it's a bad thing. Makes the few times Misawa does show genuine, overt, expressive fire, all the more special. He's a machine, super wrestler without all the extra. Misawa wears green. You don't want to see him when he's angry . . . and his tights are pulled up

Just wanted to say the stand off before the opening bell of Shield/Wyatts is the best This is Awesome chant ever. It's contextually different than all the other ones. The fans were legitimately excited at max levels to finally see the two teams square off. The feud as presented didn't cause for the crowd to strongly root for one team over the other in any sort of obvious fashion. These are two tweener at best teams, where even the build up was centered around finally getting to see these two teams do crazy stuff to each. I can imagine a rigid face/heel dynamic sort of crowd leading to some tepid responses before and during what was an admittedly, awesome match. I'm glad the crowd went the way they did rather than whatever vision of crowd responses some of you think they should have 99% of the time.

This is taking the word and giving it a different twist, but Austin is probably the greatest WORKER OF television, there has ever been. No one got more out of TV than Austin did. Like others have mentioned, it's not his fault the matches were essentially the cherry on the sundae of his pre-2000 era. The idea that he WOULDN'T have had some awesome, NUCLEAR LEVEL HEAT matches on TV is almost a preposterous thought. Austin probably could have turned walking around stalking vince for 5 minutes into a 3 star match, nevermind against a good opponent with genuine heat.

Bump because I read 29 pages of this over 2 days, and if you can remove your own personal angst form the various stances taken in this thread (funny that the consensus, Flair, duh, seems to be the easiest least begrudging of them all) and just take the thread for face value, it is as compelling a thread as I think I've read on this site, and as nuanced and mature (as we'll ever get anyway) a discussion on wrestling, what is important, what isn't, and the nature of debate, value and semantics that there might be on all the webs. . . . no way the backlund thread was this good.

I personally would love this, as I've seen jack sh*t this decade, outside of the big 'E matches

Almost in everything, seems like the perfect way to describe Randy. His peak for my personal excitement in him, with him, was when he beat Benoit at Summer Slam 10 years ago (just aged myself and everything around me by typing that). The match was excellent, the finish was excellent. The intrigue in him being able to beat Benoit one on one when his mentor/leader Triple H could not, and the potential tension it would have caused in Evolution all felt very ripe for the taking of my dollars. If you're gonna cut the Eddy and Benoit miracle runs short, then THAT was the way to go about it. . . . then they booted Orton from Evolution the very next night, took the title off him the very next pay-per-view, Cena rose in alot of the ways they thought Randy might (and then some) and Orton's been treading water as number 2 ever since.

I don't know where in the pantheon of favorites of mine he ranks, but it's super freaking high. I haven't posted on a wrestling board in forever, but RIP to Jim Helwig. Still kind of not accepting this, it's weird. Legit thought this was a horrible joke last night

I recall loving Brody/Flair from 83 in St. Louis with everything inside me. His offense looks really good, he sells like a champ and it goes nearly 60. I guess one could say "duh, he's opposite 80's Flair" but I enjoyed it I think alot more for what Brody brought to Flair's formula, than anything Flair could have brought to his (ehh I guess besides structure). It's a match I think, if Brody had 9-10 more of, this conversation would be completely different in a "look he clearly COULD be great" sort of of way.

Random . . . but where can one get their hands on Sting-Spivey?

I was wrong. Apparently she got opened up hardway and it wasn't a bladejob. Not sure who hit her though? It could have been the other woman in the match, Randy Savage's ex Gorgeous George. Anways on this same show was The Iron Shiek, Eddie Kingston vs Kamala in a match that lasted a minute and the main event of Balls Mahoney vs Sabu vs Sandman vs Devon Moore vs some other guy. And the show only drew about 200 people. Sounds kinda must-see

. . . I like you John

I put You're instead of Your, lord help me