El-P

I think it was just wrong. Because I don't think any great workers having a great match do it ignoring they are having it. It's been said that Steamboat & Savage at WMIII absolutely wanted to have that great match that was gonna steal the show. And the more things evolve, of course there is more and more recorded great pro-wrestling matches that workers are aware of, and maybe want to inspire themselves from or simply try to outwork. And the more discourse is produced about pro-wrestling the more everybody is aware of all of this, so it's hard to not be self-conscious about it. Plus it feels like a judgement passed on some sort of matches that should be less thought of simply because they reached for epicness as a definite goal, which in retrospect seems silly to me (silly me!). I mean, whatever works. Of course I'll have my preferences, like I said the two Mania Taker vs Micheals matches and the first (second actually) HHH one are not exactly my preferred style (especially the HHH one, which I don't even enjoy for the most part), but there's no way I'm gonna deny today that these were matches that successfully created a sense of epic and were great especially in their context (well, the HHH one is tricky though, but conceptually it sure worked).

Killed me !

You read my mind or something ? I almost namedrop Sabu in my answer ! Yeah, I still love Sabu (last time I checked at least, and my current approach of pro-wrestling tells me there's no way that one would change). And yeah, I was thinking here's someone that has been crazy influent, much more than most people would admit I think, and has had a *lot* of matches I have loved. Plus, he was one of the guy that was always compelling to watch against *anyone*, kinda like Zach Sabre Jr. today (yeah, in a completely different way). I don't remember if I voted Sabu last time, but maybe revisiting some Sabu stuff eventually would be enough for me to just revel in my love for that guy's work, good taste/bad taste notwithstanding !

Me : "Kenny Omega and the Young Bucks are GOAT 4 Life, brutha" PWO : "You can go to hell ! Straight to hell !" I haven't watched the last few years of NXT Takeovers (none of the Gargano vs Ciampa stuff after the very first match I think), so I wonder what I'd think about them. I mean, even Meltz who's a big fan of the style said many times they were going too long.

Hum... That's a really good question. I guess where I will end up putting Dynamite Kid will be a good answer. I guess if you have the influence but also the great output (and I don't think Dynamite has that great of an output when all it's said and done), chances are you're gonna get pretty high. But simply being influential won't matter that much, I guess (then again...). I'm asking myself a bunch of questions and not answering much, sorry !

Since I actually coined the term, I have to say this. Before CM Punk and Danielson showed up in AEW, I rewatched some of their most famous WWE stuff. Including the match I coined the infamous term about : CM Punk vs John Cena (the Chicago one). And I was wrong when I did it. I was wrong about the match (it's great), I was wrong about John Cena's performance in the match (he's absolutely terrific) and I was wrong about coining that phrase. Watching Taker's matches at Mania earlier this year also taught me that I was wrong about calling the two Shawn matches by that denomination, these matches absolutely worked as epic Mania matches, whether I love them or not (and I don't love them, especially the first one, my favorites Taker matches being vs Edge and vs Batista). I voted Omega, of course.

I expected this question. Well, it is what it is. Whether people like it or not it entirely a matter of subjective taste, but there is a global historical evolution of pro-wrestling outside of the influence of just one guy, and it always went toward more, not less. Dynamite Kid is just a cog in the machine, but a cog that just was 10, 20, 30 years in advance, in that way he was so influential because it's like he showed how things would be eventually. Visionary for sure, not in a theorical (or even messianic ! ) way, but simply by how he worked and how his work transcended his own era. Now, if I consider my own enjoyment of pro-wrestling and how I have watched more great pro-wrestling watching current stuff in the last 5 years, of course I'll say it's positive. But honestly if Dynamite doesn't happen, someone else does it (and really he wasn't the only one either moving things along, of course, he's just extremely striking). I know the comparison won't float well with some if they can't stand Dynamite, but honestly at the same time, Jaguar Yokota strikes me as the same kind of super fast, super intense, pushing the pace and spots and attitude toward what modern pro-wrestling will be. To me the question is less "Is it positive or negative", because the "negative" answer reeks of a melancholic, almost sentimental, feel about the past that I have no time for (which is an attitude that isn't restricted to pro-wrestling for me, it covers a lot of ground), than "Why and how did things evolved that way ?", without any sense of judging, because again, it is what it is. I won't blame anyone who doesn't connect to today's mostly spread style of pro-wrestling since for a long time I did not either, but then again to me there's also more joy in trying to get what may be great about it even if it's completely different than what you were used too. Case in point, I probably never been more satisfied as a pro-wrestling fan than in those last past few years.

I'm not sure everybody agrees with this sentiment either on here. And really, the idea of "reigning in" and "slowing down" the Lucha Bros is simply not getting what they are all about and how you can have the greatest matches with them. They are maximalists luchadors and they are not working their best stuff in the constraint of the "classic" southern tag-team formula (and wanting every tag-team match to be worked that way is simply a very narrow and reductionist view of pro-wrestling, and "less is more" is an empty cliché). Which is why FTR actually did not work that well with them (the match was still really good, but nowhere near as good as you'd think on paper because they did not compliment each other the best) while they had the greatest of all matches against the Young Bucks (who also had the greatest of all matches against FTR and Page/Omega, because they can do whatever the fuck they want and excel at everything, which is why they are the GOAT).

Not nearly enough Pieter camera shots.

Kota Ibushi : "Wanna do shoot-style shit ?" Great O-Khan : "Ok" O-Khan definitely turned the corner with me during this G1. Of course it was against exceptional workers, but still, he was game as fuck and has shown he was able to have that kind of match. Meanwhile, Ibushi might be the greatest high-concept worker ever. That O-Khan match was WTF is happening awesome. I mean, it made me forget I just saw Ishii vs Takahashi, which was awesome, and ZSJ vs KENTA, which was excellent too. Depending on where the conversation takes place I guess. Ibushi is awesome. I usually don't think of him as highly as Omega (to keep it in contexts that are more comparable, although, please, please, PLEASE, make it comparable for Danielson sooner than later ! G1 2022 ? PLEASE !!!!!), but then he shows up with the kind of match he just did against O-Khan (or last year against Taichi) and my mind is blown.

Tessa Blanchard *in-ring only* people. She's apparently nuclear, but people still enjoy the work of people who are without a shadow of a doubt, terrible human beings. One of a kind pro-wrestler. She would outwork any woman in WWE, AEW or IMPACT (if she went back). Unmatched intensity, great as a babyface as showed by her feud against Sami Callihan (two MOTYC in a row for the promotion) and oh yeah, she is the first woman who actually won a man's world title and made it work. Great heel also, and not just IRL. Awesome at pretty much every aspect of the game (offense, selling, bumping, she can do it all), has the presence of a star, works like one. Probably won't ever reach her potential in the business because of her rep. One of the greatest "in limbo" workers ever ? Tessa Blanchard vs Gail Kim (04/28/2019 - IMPACT) Tessa Blanchard vs Sami Callihan (07/07/2019 - IMPACT) Tessa Blanchard vs Sami Callihan (01/12/2020 - IMPACT)

The idea that Dynamite Kid stuff hasn't aged well is pretty odd considering how if you look at the last 40 years and how pro-wrestling as a whole has evolved, it owes *so much* to Dynamite Kid. You put Dynamite Kid from the early 80's in a 2021 ring, and he's not that much out of place in ways he absolutely should (speed, execution, intensity, pacing, bumping). And that's not a retrospective view either, it's just plain descriptive when you look at the big picture over a long timeframe, it's more evident now than ever before. Of course Dynamite had those destructive habits, both in and out of the ring, which has ampered his career greatly in term of output, but there is well enough material to absolutely have him back into the fold (and yes, watching Dark Side absolutely made me rethink about his case, as has my evolution in looking at pro-wrestling in the last 5 years, I'm not sure I voted for him last time around).

That's a great point. Lesnar has been back (and forth) for so long now that we almost forget his star power just skyrocketed only when he went to UFC and became a huge star there. Maybe by 2009, Lesnar ends up in TNA. Especially in the current landscape where you can actually play both sides (which Lesnar always did with UFC, but it was quite different) and actually sign with the opposition if you're not happy. And come back later for even more money and a better deal.

He's clearly on the side of cheesy jokes and the world is all better for it since he's going head on with them. Daniel Garcia & 2.0 are such a nice addition. From basically nowhere they are now featured regularly and rule every time. The Acclaimed got exactly what they deserve at this point. I don't see any improvement. Back to Dark and really, they can do jobs for the Gunn Club as far as I'm concerned, I don't see shit in them above JTTS level. I love Jade's presentation, everything about it. Not sure this kind of squash is the way to improve, but then again, having a match with Thunder Rosa sure is. I'm gonna lose my shit if the Lucha Bros opponents are whom I think they could be... This is the stuff we need.

About the Heyman connection, I also wonder if Vince would let someone, anyone, gain as much leverage and power as Lesnar got, no small thanks to Heyman's advises probably. So that's another reason why the Heyman connection might be a double-edge sword.

He may also not adapt well. Not every former wrestler ends up being Angle, Lesnar or Cobb. Any talk of him becoming this great worker and star is way premature, especially in the broken system (both in term of training and making stars) that is current WWE.

Speaking of being a tool, apparently Mark Henry has fun making nervous young people even more uncomfortable because he's in a position of power : The look and body language of people around him tell of whole story of how cringe and unfunny they thought this was. If IMPACT can suspend Tommy Dreamer for stupid shit about sexual assault, AEW surely can suspend Henry for stupid shit about hazing and toxic masculinity.

I always thought Mark Henry came off like a complete corporate idiot everytime he publicly opened his mouth when he was in WWE (including "But Owen deserves to be in the HOF" bullshit, or the Lio Rush stuff that people talk about in the thread too). I know he's friend with Coach Tony K. and all, but really this is bad publicity, all for a guy who's doing what exactly ? Considering he's a guy who had received a ridiculous 10 years contract after a *failed Olympic*, with zero experience, and never got good for a looooong time after he debuted (and that's all he ever got BTW, *good*, which is not an insult, I enjoy good Mark Henry, but he has been ridiculously overrated in some circles, which has become infamous since then), that's rich of him talking about that "deserving" bullshit. As far as his so-called great eyes for talent, wasn't he a proponent for Braun Strowman to get signed ? AEW has enough people with good eye for talents and actual terrific trainers who get pro-wrestling in 2021. The real dinosaur is not the guy with the mask...

I have no idea what they were thinking with that Johnny K9 episode. Basically 10-15 minutes about a pro-wrestler who was a footnote in the business, who also happened to be a criminal. And then 30 minutes of the criminal stuff and his ex-wife saying how much in love she was with him, and why am I supposed to care ? Well, I did not. Worst episode by far, unless you're fascinated by some random criminal stuff by a biker gang member who worked in SMW for less than a year. Apart from interviews by D'Amore and Lance Storm, you'd not even think this was a Dark Side of the *Ring* episode for most of it. Same time allotted to this as to FMW or Owen Hart ? Really ? Total miss.

Me too ! When he won the title from Bret Hart.

And as I say in the AEW thread that people are too obsessed with ratings (and they are, enjoy what you enjoy while you can), but this little tidbit still is worth telling : so NXT2.0 median viewer age this week was apparently 62. 62 YEARS OLD. Holy shit. People who were 20 when Bob Backlund was WWF champion...

People are too obsessed with ratings and getting an outside audience. The angle is super hot with the crowds (Lambert is just the best, he's amazing). The multi-men matches (if they do more than one) are gonna be fun. Guevarra vs Page and Guevarra vs Scorpio if both happen are gonna be at worst very good. What do people want ? I have no idea who those people are, I don't watch MMA. But the angle being so hot absolutely makes them "somebody" from the get go. If the angle was flat, yeah, you could question it (like the awful build to Cody vs Shak). As it is, it's just good pro-wrestling shit.

Marty Asami is the dirt worst at it. You basically gotta block him out of your mind and train your brain to deflect what he's doing. Taichi vs Jeff Cobb was AWESOME. Taichi is easily the best fourth guy in his block and a top tier worker of this G1. Okada vs SANADA was kinda slow at first (for obvious reasons), but the ending stretch was incredible and a reminder of how brillant Okada is. Ishii, although he begins to show his age (and damaged body) a bit physically, just showed again why he's one of the GOAT. Great O-Khan won't have another match like this before long (although he was indeed game and has shown through this G1 that he could be a better worker if he wasn't doing the goofy mongolian gimmick).

Of course if we play the game of clues... First Dynamite after Full Gear is in Norfolk, Virginia, home state of Hangman. Last year at Full Gear, Kenny Omega defeated Hangman Page in the AEW World title qualifier match, which sent Hangman Page basically into his depressive road before he got picked up by the Dark Order. Full Gear is named after Hangman Page's old skit on BTE. So, in many ways it looks like the perfect timing. Considering it's more than two months, there's plenty of time to do that Omega vs Danielson match before for a big-ass Dynamite special.

Come on now. Pro-wrestling pop culture is not what it used to be, people...