El-P

Actually, I brought up Dustin Rhodes before in this very thread and was the first (and only one thus far I believe) to do so. I don't bring him up in the context of the Dreamer discussion because it pertains to the Dark Side of the Ring documentary and the reactions on social medias (and this board). And Dustin was not portrayed as an abuser on the documentary, so I can't blame people who watched it and aren't aware of the details of the lawsuits (hell, I only learned about it myself after having watched the show) of not knowing that Dustin was part of the abuse too. The three sexual abusers in the doc are Flair, Hall & Lesnar. Hall is so far off the radar that I'm not shocked he's not mentioned on social media. Lesnar ? Kinda different case.... (would be pretty interesting to have statistics on the number of tweets about Flair/Dreamer/Hall/Lesnar... not to mention honestly the most horrifying, to me, extract which is the RVD bit about what pro-wrestling culture was. But it would be too depressing.)

Well, Tommy Dreamer is not a sexual abuser. Yet he received more attention and real-life repercussions because of how the documentary was formatted than one of the actual sexual abuser that was mentioned (and who would not respond BTW). So the neverending outrage about Dreamer, including, as I predicted, his apology, gets kinda ridiculous and yes, annoying, after a while. So yeah, I'm bringing up Lesnar over and over again because I'm a dick like that (but I don't do the helicopter). Well, that illustrates the point Meltz was making this week-end about the mentality of "made men" compared to low-carder, men or women, in the locker room. Taker, that great locker room leader. As we probably will learn more about next week in the Kanyon episode.

Of course not. Plus, they are performing for a guy who had a journalist murdered, so really now, an old story about showing your dick... Speaking of which (and airplaines, and lawsuits settlements), considering the ridiculous settlements lately, the infamous delayed airplane debacle would make a fucking insane Dark Side of the Ring episode. But no one will talk about it as most are still employed there anyway.

"From the bottom of my heart, I am so sorry" Really now... Also, "I apologize to anyone I offended" doesn't mean "I"m sorry you got offended". Not at all. Obviously if you're not offended, you're not in need of an apology, therefore the apology doesn't concern those who are not offended. At some point, people need to fucking understand how language work. And yeah, that's my professional realm, so at points I get really annoyed (can you feel the slight annoyance in my latest posts ) about stuff like this, because people just twist stuff around with their own attribution bias and imply stuff that just aren't there. Anyway. Lesnar trending yet ? Yes ? No ? No. Maybe at Blood Money Mania. Yeah probably not.

Well, if that's the case, they don't even understand the English language, because that's not what he wrote. It's irrelevant anyway, people who are complaining now are the exact same who would complain if he had not apologized. The great thing about a double bind is that you're always right. Oh anyway, it's not like it was not predictable.

I don't have to be satisfied or not. I'm not involved. I'm just an observer. I won't imply stuff just because it's "convenient" to confirm my own opinion. I'm also not a judge and I'm no one to put Tommy Dreamer on trial. What I saw is Tommy Dreamer say real stupid shit on a doc, Tommy Dreamer got suspended from his job, Tommy Dreamer apologizes. It's not up to me to judge or weigh the validity or sincerity of his public apologies, because I just know *nothing* about how the guy feels. He apologizes, which is the right thing to do, I say good for him. That's about it as far as I can say. I don't know how the women in IMPACT took the whole thing, I don't know the private exchanges he may have had with them, I basically don't know anything apart from what was shown in the documentary and now his public apology (which sounds allright to me). Again, I'm not involved and I'm not owed anything.

What I just said... Also, implying he's apologizing *only* because he's been suspended is simply gratuitous. It's not above anyone to say stupid shit. Maybe also Dreamer saw himself in the doc, was embarrassed by what he said especially confronted to the interview of the flight attendant (which, like everybody else, he probably had no seen before) and felt like shit about it. No one knows. So there.

"Your apology is not sincere enough" in 5... 4.... 3... 2.... (I guess it's there already in the comments, but I'm not stupid enough to read them) Good for Dreamer.

The bad thing about Ishii vs Takagi, is that no one will be able to follow it during this G1. No one. No idea why anyone would want this one to go shorter. If there was ever a time to chant "Fight forever", that was it. It will also the mere high point of his matches. I mean, Gedo ain't an idiot, if we're gonna have to suffer through Yujiro's matches, at least gave us something, anything to look forward too. Pretty cool that spoilers have been avoided, too, thus far.

Well, if that's true, it's another crappy tidbit about our friend JR. I guess the flight attendants were too old to get any attention from The King though, so there's that...

Honestly I dunno why. Maybe people are just stupid about cannabis and just stereotype. Because, from memory, RVD in shoot interviews always struck me, as a pretty level headed guy. In some ways, it just proves that cannabis is the lesser of all drugs, alcohol included. True. As long as Dreamer is talking pro-wrestling, he's obviously super cool and lovable. But I'm not sure I'd expect a lot of deep thinking especially in things relating to pro-wrestling, since he's the picture perfect of a boys stan. This. Ok let's be fair to Fl JR about this one. The quote as reported by ThreadKiller is this : “The Flight Attendants partied pretty hard with the boys...and you know what that means. No good can come of that. Nobody was looking for a nice, romantic interlude and none of those guys was looking to meet the girl of their dreams. Those girls didn’t do a lot to help themselves, but that absolutely doesn’t give anybody the right to be sexually abusive.” Ok. He says the flight attendant partied with the wrestlers. And you know what ? It very well may have happened. Anyone who doesn't believe some flight attendants who do that on a party flight full of booze and celebrity aren't living in the real world. He says no good can come out of it. That's not blaming anyone, that's him knowing the context. Then the "Those girls didn’t do a lot to help themselves", which may be interpreted as blaming them, but it's not really the case. Again, it very may be true that some of the flight attendants were unprofessional too. That they partied hard. That they were flirtatious (again, if you don't believe that to be a possibility, you're kidding yourselves). And that is indeed only adding trouble *as an overall situation* when you're dealing with a bunch of boozed-up idiots who are fighting in an airplane, cutting hairs, doing drugs and shit. HOWEVER, Ross concludes by "but that absolutely doesn’t give anybody the right to be sexually abusive." That sentence alone leaves no interpretation. Ross is asked to describe the situation, which he does from his point of view. To him, yes, some of the flight attendants were unprofessional partying with the boys. Knowing the boys, that was not gonna end up pretty. BUT : "that absolutely doesn’t give anybody the right to be sexually abusive." The "absolutely" and "anybody" are a pretty clear cut emphasis too. In other word, he said it doesn't matter what the flight attendants attitude was pertaining to the sexual abuse that went on. From there and again from TreadKiller's transcript, Ross said that the WWF had no leg to stand on because there was too much evidence against them, they were guilty and apparently implies he's happy the flight attendant got a large settlement. So I'm sure some will say "But why is he mentioning flight attendants being flirtatious at all?" Well, he's there to gives his recollection of the flight. And he isn't using this element as any sort of excuse. On the contrary, since he explicitly says it is NOT an excuse to be sexually abusive. Of course then there's the fact Flair gets a free pass. He's obviously not proud of it. It would be stupid to put that on Ross alone, as Vince is taking the measures and it's not just an individual thing it's a social system (that should be broken once and for all). I wonder what the Kanyon episode will bring us in term of "WWE is/was a toxic company"...

That's a good point. I'm sure Dreamer is pretty much loved by everybody there, so it must be quite a heartbreak for the women there to see him say those stupid shit. Also, IMPACT is running a women only special this week (shown in October I believe), during which they will also pay homage to Daffney (and have Melissa Santos doing the thing she does the best, yes !), so that comes with an even more awkward timing.

Hum... The thing about this documentary is that it also builds a narrative where there is one main villain (well, two I guess with Dreamer). But if you believe the extract of the lawsuit from back then that popped up on social media (yeah, I know), Dustin Rhodes absolutely was part of the deal, as he apparently sexually harassed the *other* flight attendant (nowhere near as bad as what Hall & Flair did, but still). So there... Now, there's the legal aspect of the whole thing : they settled. So, from a legal standpoint, it's done, for better or worse (worse, if you ask me). Of course some people are gonna go on a witch-hunting crusade now because that's what they do on Twitter. Just wanted to point out that there are the facts and the story told and the way it's told through directing and editing. (and in the midst of this, idiots are complaining that *AEW guys* are getting a pass (yeah, I swear) and other idiots ask for the flight attendant to receive the Warrior Award, because of course there's nothing better than more whitewashing from the company that basically bought her silence, all with the name of a piece of shit on top) Clips of old shoot interviews from Shane Douglas (who always said Flair was a piece of trash, guess who was right ?) and Teddy Long (exposing Flair acting racist) popping up here and there really hits you on the head as far as a reminder... it's not like this was not out there.

Him too, yes, of course. He did confront Omega in IMPACT a few weeks ago, so it's not like they did not plant some seeds.

I love Allie. She's just so adorable which is why the Bunny is a fun character (I would like her to switch toward the cuty side of things at some point though, and then snap again). She's never gonna have the great killer in-ring performances, but she brings other things to the table, and she's really solid and a good veteran for the up and comers to work with and learn. She's a keeper. I just want Miro to show up at Arthur Ashes in that car and of course have CJ get of the car looking like only she can. That NYC show (split into two TV show) is gonna be the equivalent of those Nitro shows in the Atlanta dome.... except it's in "enemy" territory, so even more impressive when they squash RAW in the demos. Like, I don't care about the ratings per say, I only care about watching a product that I like (hi IMPACT!), but the fact that this pissant company, two years after its debut on national TV, is doing what it is doing, is just too insane not to mention.

Funk vs Brisco. Flair vs Steamboat. Jumbo vs Tenryu. Misawa vs Kawada. Misawa vs Kobashi. Tanahashi vs Okada. Okada vs Omega. And then next week on TV : Danielson vs Omega. When is Ospreay showing up in AEW already ?

If you believe stuff in shoot interviews, Micheal Hayes tried to piss on her too before punching JBL... Indeed. The Marty Jannetty interviews are so incriminating for Michaels (and himself of course). This is all about cognitive dissonance. But then again, there's just plain ignoring it and there's at least being aware of those cognitive dissonances and from there having a reflexion on us fans and what our place in this is when we keep on supporting people who are or have been total scumbags. Actually, it is, because being a fan means we give actual social power to these people, and that social and financial power is why they can act the way they do and suffer no consequence. It's too easy to just wash our hands off it. I agree and I actually mentioned Chioda coming off like a douchebag in my long-ass post a few pages ago. Agreed. I would make a comparison with how the entire legacy of the Tour de France for instance is totally flawed because of doping and you can't really talk about it nor its history without burying your head in the sand, because it was not just Lance Armstrong, the cycling system has been totally corrupt by doping for decades. So you have your bad guy standing as a scapegoat (of course Armstrong was a fraud and a despicable human being and deserves all the shit he got and more) and then you have all those "former champions" who were all pretty much involved in one way or another acting as TV commentators, trainers, team leaders and whatnot and journalist talking about the mythology of the sport and all those great champions of the past...

Not even hyped for Tanga Loa vs Great O-Khan ? Ok, it's unfair, Takagi vs Ishii will murder a bunch of MOTYCs.

Well good. Speaking of which, might as well : "We were all afraid in WWE" That's from 2004 to 2010. AFTER the plane ride from hell. The Divas era. John Laurinaitis at the helm. In another tweet she says how she has loved her last stint thanks to the talent, which has totally changed (ya know, those soy boy who play video game and don't carry a gun with them). But that the office needed to change.

Yes, I understand the process. But to me there's something sad about Terri Runnels telling her story and people go all up in arms about Dreamer... That's Twitter for ya. (I guess you can "blame" the documentarists for giving a platform to stupid opinions too, as they choosed to show that part of Dreamer's interview and he comes of like a complete idiot)

JR said something quite interesting about Flair being a "made man". The fact he used a term that comes from the Mafia is quite telling to me. Pro-wrestling comes from a kinda secret society background, where people speak carny and do the flat handshake. There is definitely (or was) a culture of silence to protect "the boys". You can find the same culture in the military for instance (in France the army is called "The Big Mute").

The comparison was not between Flair & Lesnar, it was between Dreamer & Lesnar. That's what my post was about. I did not even mention Flair. How this that even remotely a bad thing ?!!! The Ashley Massaro story certainly is that would need to be shed some light on.

As a 31 years old fan, I ask myself that question too, very regularly when real bad shit pop up. But like I said, it's not inherent to pro-wrestling. You think things are better in Hollywood ? In the music industry ? In the TV industry ? In sports ? In politics ? Think again. I mean, this world is a failure, honestly.

You really think I meant that *literally* ? The incident was about Flair indeed, but Lesnar was namely accused of sexual assault too in that documentary. So there.