El-P

Thanks ! Not that bad. I actually thought about what you'd think of this episode.

Which is why they never had that one great match together, just a clash of ideas probably (much like Bret with Flair). They both had great matches with some of the same opponents though (Nash, Razor) though, so needless to say, there's no *right* approach. Bret getting fucked over by Goldy deprived us of the potentially great stuff Bret would have done with all the guys from the early to mid 00's in WWE, and it would have been fascinating to see how he would have fit with that crowd. For that only, fuck you Goldy.

Bret was absolutely also about having the best pro-wrestling match on the card. "The best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be" was not just a catchphrase that worked in a kayfabe way. The biggest difference is, WWE actively marketed Shawn as this incredible guy who had the most spectacular matches. And that's pretty early on. When they switched Sid at SummerSlam 95 to instead put on Razor in the ladder match part2, it was implied that it was the right match to produce, because it's what the fans would want (and really, who would argue with that ?). And it was clearly all about how great the first match was and how this one had to be too. Meanwhile, poor Bret had to work something watchable out of Isaac Yankane, not DMD. But Bret was all about stealing the show too. That's the Bulldog match at SummerSlam 92. That's his disagrements with Flair about how they should work their match, despite him not ever (and certainly not in 92) being on Flair' social status level. That's wanting to do the first ladder match in WWF (woops, did not work out like he envisioned ! ). The idea of stealing the show has probably been there since day one, because it's human nature. Steamboat and Savage absolutely went "fuck that Hogan shit, it's us people are gonna talk about" at WM3. And they successfully did it. For years and years it was referred to as one of the greatest matches ever. No one talked about George Steele abducting Liz and Steamboat finally winning the IC title, but everyone talked about how this match was the greatest thing ever. Hell, even Guy Hauray and Eddie Carpentier, the French announcers, talked about it that way when The Dragon showed up in 1991. With Shawn it took a life of its own probably because of many contextual elements, one of which being it was a good way to market him then. Like the Streak, Shawn's "Mr. Best Match at Mania" became both a gimmick and a real life thing, smartly so (which is also why the first Taker Mania match had that aura that you almost never see anywhere, because of how "real" everything was). But anyway, I've gone back and forth on two of my early favorites, Shawn has gone back up lately (thanks to the Taker @ Mania project which surely taught me quite a bit) after my opinion of his work kinda took a nosedive during the "I'm sorry I love you" era, but I'm still firmly way more of a Bret Hart fan, maybe more than ever (maybe because of Tanahashi, GOAT contender, who reminds me of Bret in some ways)

That would have avoided the handshake of doom at the very least, which sealed the deal for WWE as far as their hottest run was concerned.

Yeah, I don't mean the usual week to week Authority bullshit, which was godawful and lasted years. The McMahons are extremely overrated performers anyway, even Vince was only great for a short time during the Attitude Era (at a point where he was bouncing off Austin, Foley and Rock aka three of the greatest performers in the history of the company) and in short bursts after that point. When he reached the point of having competitive matches against Hulk Hogan, it was completely ridiculous (him winning the Rumble in 99 was the point that really killed the WWF fan in me).

As an old FMW/Onita fan, everything about this is fascinating. The one thing they got wrong is that it's not Joan Jett's version of Wild Thing, it's X ! And Onita got axed from his own company before Fuyuki really got on with the atrocious "entertainment" stuff (can't believe I had to watch the circle piss and exploding asscrack footage again !), but that's a detail. It's so cool they got to talk to the daughters of Hayabusa and Arai. It's probably undersold how much Hayabusa has influenced indy workers over the years. His story really is a such a sad and tragic one, as it was just bad luck, he did that move probably hundreds and hundreds of time. Arai was a really singular ring announcer, you can't think of Onita's classic era without thinking about the way he was announced, and the voice of Arai announcing the time left during the bomb matches. The footage from Kudo's retirement is so grim (that ridiculous fireball and the totally unsafe powerpomb into the exploding wire outside, Shark Tsushiya was such an unprofessional bitch), she would have deserved more than an in-passing mention (not by name even), as she really took the role of Onita after he retired, she was the one carrying the promotion with the gory deathmatches much more than Hayabusa. That's the only real miss of the documentary. I have no idea when this was shot, but Terry looked ok then. He's just the greatest. I legit cracked up at his mention of the idiots buying first row ticket for exploding deathmatches. Also, finally I get a translation of Onita's infamous crying promos !!! And I'm not disappointed ! There is so much that could be said about the whole thing, from the mad genius of Onita to the japanese culture of Yakuza ties that could be an episode into itself. Also, struck me how Jericho really is the last of this generation, his career is quite incredible when you really think about it, having worked matches in the FMW, WAR (including the J-Cup), SMW, ECW, going through the Monday Night Wars, the WWE peaking, the Cena years, the Roman years, NJPW's latest peak and now AEW. He can tell stories about pretty much every topic from the last 30 years.

1000% this. I know he has the good rep because he's probably a "cool" guy IRL, but as a performer, holy shit he was bad. His shit looked bad, like horrific level bad, he went toe to toe with Kurt Angle doing mat wrestling, he did not show fear of the Undertaker in a HITC match, he took completely ridiculous bumps to satisfy his ego while not actually having to work a schedule as a pro-wrester, thus uping the ante for other people to get reactions while taking zero responsibility on the long term because as much as he fantasized it, he wasn't one of the boy, he was the boy from the boss, who did not need to work a day in his life. Stephy has been unbearable for ever both as the Authority and IRL corporate asshole, but as a performer she has had many shining moments as a valet or even an in-ring performer, not because she ever was a good wrestler but because she was a good character (for instance in the Rousey match, of course) and actually got her comeuppance to get her opposition over.

As far as universally acclaimed match, no, he really doesn't. Now, the fact some people may like his Portland and Mid-Atlantic run, sure, why not, but it's not like there is some other consensus must-see match involving Piper. I always thought Piper to be one of those "And then the bell rings" guys, dating back to when I was 14 years old mark. Always thought there was a complete disconnect between the guy who was talking and the ability displayed when it was time to get the match in the ring. He's a clear case of social status (if you consider the pro-wrestling landscape like it's his own little society) playing a huge part in how his in-ring stuff is perceived, like many others who are praised but whose stuff that have less to do with actual in-ring ability but a lot to do with *who* they are. People always focus, sometime to a ridiculous degree, to when and why moves are executed, but you never hear about one that's as much if not more important : who is doing them. Anyway, the one other thing about Piper is how cringe a lot of his classic stuff has become in todays society in term of racism (coconut city, half-blackface) and homophobia (many, many promos). Sure does not help. Oh, yeah, that match is really fun. But It's really Flair & Greene (that guy could have made a terrific pro-wrester on a regular basis) being on fire on the babyface side and the nWo having a terrific night putting their opposition over, Waltman in particular.

I didn't even think about that ! But right on !

He's the GOAT stooge, so in a way yeah he's #1 ! Plus he looks like millennial Justin Credible, which I find kinda annoying in a good way.

I forgot that one happens too and I'm interested in Suzuki vs anyone... Hey, if I can mark out for two Nick Gage matches (make it three since I really enjoyed the Jericho one) in 2021, that's another case of "WTF is happening this year ?". I can see the GCW crowd really enjoying that Psycho Clown music theme...

Just have him seat on the broken throne !

I mentioned before how I don't get the "hype" for Nick Gage at all and how I have never got anything from watching his matches (granted, few of them and all in the last few years, but still) but I would lie if that did not spike my interest. That's some real good hype job. Also, I understand that Joey Janela vs Minoru Suzuki is happening. This is the stuff Janela was really good at (the WTF is this happening kinda match) and since he really hasn't been featured in AEW apart from a few bright spots (his tag team with Sonny Kiss followed by a break-up and a really good match / the hardcore match against Omega), I'm quite interested in that one too.

Nick Jackson is the second best worker in the Elite, but everybody in the world is second best to the N°1 worker in the Elite (or not, Takagi, Ishii, Okada & ZSJ are making everything possible to disprove that fact). Remember that match with Fénix a while ago ? Yeah, this is gonna be awesome. Speaking of the Lucha Brothers, anyone thinking that Andrade is bringing la familia to AEW after that (tremendously bad) interview on Dynamite ?

So, Lio Rush is unretiring after retiring then only working the matches he had scheduled for NJ now apparently unretired for good. What's next ? Kylie Ray ? People bitch about modern worker not able to control a crowd, take notice : crowd goes batshit crazy for Cole's little catchphrases, but also chant his name a little too much during the match, and so what Cole does ? He starts to bitchslaps Jungle Boy and the crowd actually boos him. Also, that Panama Sunrise kick out was perfect because it makes Jungle Boy special, which he needs to be since he's losing the match (not clean, ok, but still). Plus, the Panama Sunrise is not Cole's #1 finisher, that Shining Wizard thingy is. Miro vs Sammy Guevara was just the perfect match for the perfect moment, although I would have loved to see Miro keep on with his streak. Hopefully his momentum doesn't stop because he has been an awesome TNT champ (the best actually). That Dark Order vs HFO match also was exactly what it needed to be, with the nice moment of Amanda, Tay & Anna (damn the matching outfits makes them look so good too !) setting the record straight and -1 doing the infamous paper throw. That's not one but 2 feel-good moments (both paying homage to Brody since he was the original monster TNT champ). Well, make that 3 with the brutal Arn promo. Of course Cody is aware, it's very obvious. He gotta turn heel. Brandi comes from the heel tunnel already.

The tricky thing being to rate both while they really never work singles match. Let's say if I have Matt at #25, Nick has to be #24 indeed.

Every match I've watched from Nick Gage, he has looked like complete and utter crap in it (can't do shit that looks halfway decent). And I'm a fan of the Sandman. I do not get it at all. I mean, I get that he's a cult hero. But I get *nothing* out of his matches. For all the shit that Jericho gets lately, I thought he did a masterful job making a Gage match somewhat watchable and fun.

Funny, I have been watching Christophe Agius (the French WWE announcer of these last 20 years and to me a legit top 5 announcers ever) show/podcast on Youtube, and at the WM31 episode he's been saying the same thing. I must preface by saying he's incredibly genuine (and humble. and fun to listen to) and never just giving the company line (very seldom does he appear to do so and even when that happens he manages to balance his arguments). He said that in his opinion they missed the opportunity that night with Reigns, as although he was rejected by the crowd, you could feel that the way the match was structured, with Lesnar walking over Roman, had the crowd slowly but surely gaining support for him. To him if Roman had won, the pop would have been lesser than with Rollins on that night, but that would have won over the crowd and would have got Roman to be finally accepted. That show is awesome BTW in term of little backstage tidbits and anecdotes from the few times him and Philippe Chéreau have been brought to the US (a few Manias, Summerslam and Rumbles in the last decade), gives you a peak to the backstage and mostly the WWE company from a very different point of view. I guess only @SirEdger around here can really make something about this info, but there you go.

Drawing money. As late as early 1999 Hogan vs Flair was a major success for them and actually drew their last big PPV number. Nope. Him vs Flair in 1996 is what got the company hot before the nWo had it going over the edge. His feud with DDP was one of the hottest of 1997 and it absolutely made DDP. The idea that Savage was good for commentary is exactly what bit Vince in the ass. As far as Piper's go, his first angle leading to Starrcade was pretty great and it drew big time. Hogan also stepped up quite a bit to work that match and make it ok, as Piper, who was always a struggle in the ring (yeah, I know, the Bret and Valentine matches, that's two in an entire career), who pretty much done by then. So, that first stint was really a success. After that point, yeah, it became a laughable mess at best and horrific at worst (Age in a Cage). Should have ended at Starrcade. Well ok, the first stuff with Flair was actually pretty fun too.

YOSHI-HASHI had the match of his life against Okada. Agree Tama vs Tanahashi was a pretty cool match, and the difference to me is striking in term of what Tama brought to the game compared to Tanga Loa vs Ishii, in which I thought Loa really didn't measure up at all and in the end it was Ishii just forcing a more meaty match than it had any right to be (I would not have minded this to be a semi-squash, but it would not have made sense in this context, and less so when the shows are way shorter because of the pandemic). ZSJ is the MVP, that's official. That Great O-Khan match was the most enjoyable I've seen. He's much better when he's rolling around than when's he's doing claws and shit. I guess Ibushi vs Yano was the "best" (as in, less offensive) Yano you'll get. KENTA vs Takagi was a worthwhile main event, as KENTA really is putting himself on his opponent's level (well, as much as he can), so you'll get this match against Takagi and you'll get jackshit against Yano or Yujiro.

AJ had the best match of then night. Shane was also in the ring, alongside the ref.

What if the Khan vs Khan feud was a work ? What if in the end, Nick Khan is working for a sell and the one buying was.... Shad Khan ? All jokes aside, if that means no more Shane O-Mac match at Mania, this is a win-win for everybody.

The one thing that WWE always had over WCW is that it was Vince's vision, for better or worse. The fact there was one decision made at the end of the day. Of course that was before Vince lost his mind. But that's a really good thing especially since, judging from his track record until now, he is a good booker who also learns from his mistakes. The issue is indeed him running himself into the ground by overworking himself. The two Dark shows should probably been given some other people to oversee them. I don't want Coach Tony K. to burn himself out. As far as creative people, I guess Callis would not be bad, although IMPACT's booking was always D'Amore more than anyone else.

@Coffey Should I stop posting on this board ?

Sure ! Who's left who's out there though that would make a big impact ? And no, Braun Strowman is not a good answer.