El-P

Get used to that. With the sell of the Network to a streaming service, the vanishing of house-show (which was a gift from Covid to WWE anyway), the PPV model is dead and buried, as WWE is just a "content creator" for the streaming machine now. It will emphasize what was already happening with the ridiculous TV fees they were getting after the fox and Saudi deal, which is that they just have to provide whatever content to fill time, they don't need to rely on PPV that make sense or present any exciting match and booking. Speaking of the Saudi deal, with the diplomatic relationship between Biden and MBS kinda going south, with MBS more or less being now officially designated as responsible for Khashoggi's murder, I wonder what happens with that. Probably nothing in the grand scheme of things, but if there's an episode of Dark SIde of the Ring Vice TV should do, it's this one, now is the time.

BTW, Blake Christian is part of the new NXT class. Well, he looked really good at the NJ Super J Cup and on IMPACT, but in WWE...

Just FTR, the "virtue signaler" comment wasn't directed at you. I was just amazed to learn that some people actually screamed "racism" over this.

I'm already depressed by the fact I'm turning 45 in two days, great timing for this thread... I dunno, the demographic and sociological aspect of the pro-wrestling audience is quite fascinating to me. I'm sure there would be much to say about it. As far as message board goes, yeah, seems like something out of another era, honestly (and sadly, as I don't think social medias as they are working today are conducive to better discussions and sharing of ideas at all... Maybe the future of such a community of a "niche inside a niche" is on Twitch or something). I wonder how many people active regularly on the board are products of the mid 90's or late 90's/early 00's discussions sites and boards and how much came much much later.

Ok, I'm referring to what he said on the following WOR, which maybe you haven't listened to. That's the issue with listening to short clips posted solely for Twitter outrage (also see : Twitter outrage GIFs). On the clip that has been posted everywhere which I have just listened to, he actually says that he (Bad Bunny) "helps WWE with the latin audience to a degree", that Bad Bunny is very famous and very well know but not necessarily *loved* by everybody, and that he (Meltz) did not know what the latin audience wants pro-wrestling to be. So there. Much ado about nothing, as always. Note : I had edited my first post because I did not wanted to come off too mean, but really... yep.

There's nothing "funny" about it, really. People are like "Bad Bunny is gonna get WWE the Latino community audience !". Meltz basically only said that Mexicans and Puerto Ricans communities were very different and that's it.

AEW with NWA, whatever that means today. Plus considering Konnan severe health issues lately, I doubt will hear about the Crash for a long time (that is Konnan's promotion, right ?). Yes, I think so to. #independantcontractors.

Da fuck ? We're here callin' for Tony Khan's attention and MoS just got his mom a shoutout by Stone Cold ? BTW, the most WTF thing about Tony Khan is that he said he was doing the html for John McAdams website and McAdams would pay him in tapes.

Tony Khan, if you read that message, have someone say "Self Conscious Epic on Dynamite". Thanks. I am an AEW stan, too.

Ok. Well, "workrate dogmatism" doesn't exist. Case in point, you seem to infer that half the the reason Neidhart doesn't get credit for his work is because people care too much about "workrate", when in fact I just put Neidhart's work over using very much a "workrate" argument. Plus, the people who don't value his work probably have many different reasons for it, and just stating "oh, that's half because workrate dogmatism" doesn't constitute an argument at all, it just puts all the contradictors under one umbrella which disqualifies them because they, for some reason, defer to some dogma (which doesn't exist).

What would be a misconception ? That he would actually bring some shit to the table ? Because most people who think Neidhart brought nothing won't put him over for his "workrate" either. So I don't get your point here. I say he did bring stuff to the table, and from my point of view, "workrate dogmatism" if such a thing existed (which it doesn't) would actually play in Neidhart's *favor*, not the other way around.

Such a thing doesn't exist and has never existed. Really. Even more than 20 years ago you could read stuff like "great workrate but poor psychology" for some insane spotfests. Using such a term is akin to saying "lulz mOvEZ", it's a way to disqualify any counter-argument because "Oh, but you care too much about the moves, like the consensus always does.". Plus, what Neidhart actually was mostly bringing was a bunch of exciting highspots, so yeah, moves indeed.

YES ! I absolutely used it in jest earlier on. (well, I mean, I am looking out for the great matches, which like you said are easier to judge than individuals, but the GMT name always annoyed me plenty) Well thank you. I'll probably soon need stuff to get my head off that damn 6pm curfew that will never end and the fact there hasn't been any social life in months now and maybe the third lockdown is incoming...

He was doing some very dynamic power spots, including some damn slingshot shoulder tackle which looked incredible for its time. Some of his stuff did not look the greatest, but one thing about Anvil is that his work did not look like anyone else, which was a rarity then and even more now, and what he lacked in actual polish he brought in intensity, which fit what he could do (not a lot, granted). Of course I'd never say he was even near the level of Bret, including in the mid 80's, but he did brought some good shit to the table in big matches too (not to mention squash matches where he was fun throwing guys around). I dunno, I always had a soft spot for the Anvil.

You know what, I might just do that and check some of this French Catch...

Ok, thanks. I thought it was from the INA archive site, which is not free unless you have a special access. Extensive Youtube references would indeed be very precious for the next GWE btw.

WrestleMania XXIV (2008) – Undertaker vs Edge First off, let me say this is one of my favorite settings ever. Love the outdoor shows and the Citrus Bowl with the damn giant boat stuff on the entrance was amazing. Taker closes the show once again for the World Title. Hey, no hat ! What’s up with that ? He looks even fitter than the previous year. It’s obvious that he reached the point of wanting to be in Mania Shape to have a great match. He’s not working monster big man anymore as he’s super lean and fast. Edge as a main-eventer is really part of those lost years for me, as showed by his music theme which is sooooo 00’s WWE (aka bad alternative metal), so I can't say I'm overly familiar with his work during this period. Enough to say that yes, he's got those "spamming stunned emoticons" facials that get on the nerves of about everybody on this board, but honestly aren't that much more ridiculous than a lot of things in pro-wrestling. Not going into details of everything that happens, but basically after the initial exchanges, which had this super cool lucha-libre style double counter of the Old School rope-walk and the now requisite crazy plancha which followed a huge bump by Edge off the top to the floor, Taker bumps outside on the padded barricade. From there the pace slowers down into Edge basically working more or less on Taker’s back, which is a strategy that is worth any other. Taker will regularly get back to sell it even though it’s not the real story of the match. During this sequence, Edge does a really cool back suplex on the barricade, it fits his focus and looks really « bad » (as in « painfull »), with Taker falling off on the audience’s side. There’s also a rather innocuous half-crab spot followed by some kind of leg lock which really don’t accomplish much. The real meat of the match is coming up and it’s all about Edge being a great counter wrestler. Taker goes for the powerbomb, Edge counters. Taker goes for the chokeslam, Edge counters, twice, always straight into an offensive move. Taker himself counters the spear to finally hit the chokeslam. You can see that the crowd is really playing along, as there’s no much danger of Edge losing from the chokeslam (when neither the Last Ride or the Tombstone had been done already) yet they do count and act like it could be the pinfall, but really it’s not what I’d call a « nearfall ». BTW, the announcing anytime Cole was in with someone else (whoever it may be) was getting worse and worse (the previous year was already pretty annoying) but this year with Cole & Coachman was legit terrible, ruining every nearfall with « The streak is over ! » and using awful verbiage like « The Ultimate Opportunist ». Anyway, so basically Edge counters every key spots, including the non-finishers like the big boot following the Snake Eyes in a great spot and dynamics' shift. Taker actually takes a superplex in the last third of the match, so there’s clearly some out of the ordinary big spots at work. Keeping on with the theme of the match, they use the new trope of climbing the corner only to get the Last Ride but this time Edge counters that too, pretty smart stuff. When Taker actually hits it later, it becomes a legit nearfall then and there’s a really good facial sell (from Taker, of course, not the emoticon spamming guy). First Tombstone counter and then Taker actually goes back to Old-School, like he's insisting on successfully doing his main spots that have been countered before. And then the funky part with a ref bump on a missed big boot and they do another cool sequence as Edge taunts Taker which is never a good idea as he get choked, but then again : counter into a balls-shot ! They really do drive the point home and do a great job with it. Then Edge does the old Sid camera shot but as he’s going to revive the ref, he actually pushes him outside in a pretty neat moment so he’s fucked and Taker does the zombie sit-up. Taker then does the Tombstone reversal spot, pinfall attempt, no ref so we have to wait for Charles Robinson to run down the ramp, which is quite funny indeed, and also allows enough time to protect the Tombstone as Edge is kicking out of it : great nearfall. Two croonies show up and they get chokeslamed one over the other outside (brutal) leading into the spear (his best one, really, if there was a time to hit it ok that was it) for another legit nearfall. You know where this is going now, all big spots have been used without success so when Edge is going for another spear (not as good...), Taker is in position for « That Submission Manœuvre » as they say (fuck, the announcing is disgustingly bad) and he wins by tap-out after failing to get the pinfall with his three big finishers. Yeah, this one is a great match, very smart psychology, Taker looked super crisp again (except for the flying clothesline which he doesn’t seem to do right anymore), Edge was excellent at doing the countering machine thingy (one reversal looked kinda flubbed, but it’s ok). Great series of legit nearfalls at the end, maybe there was a minute of two in the middle that could have been scrapped (the whole half-crab/leglock) but at this point it’s nitpicking. Very different from last year’s match in term of approach and just as successful. Taker wins another title to end the show on a great note. 7-9

On one hand, I would LOVE to see if I had interactions with Coach Tony K (I believe I was still kind of a regular at that time). On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want to re-read posts by 26 years old me.

Thanks ! That's amazing ! Wow, 2004 ! I thought it was a bit later but nope, the old green board. Yeah, it's like basically "He's one of us." And it's funny, because when sometime I joke that AEW is booking "for me" (not always, but it has happened), there's something to this. I was listening to the Mox interview and it's the same thing, he's talking about how the first time he saw Terry Funk was on ECW TV and then he saw those clips of the death match tournament in Japan on WWF TV (I think during the great JR interview of Mankind), and from then he bought the tapes of the IWA tournament. I can totally relate because I did exactly the same thing. People complain that there aren't "bigger than life" character in pro-wrestling and that they come off as geeks, but guess what, that's because they are exactly like us, they ARE pro-wrestling geeks who bought tapes. It's actually rather cool.

By your own admission, Riho has been a proven ratings draw, whereas we don't know about Britt since there aren't really an audience to gauge the in-house reaction. So, Riho should get it back ! Britt is gonna get it eventually no matter what.

Thinking of it, it's probably for the better than this has vanished, really. Considering the "hey, X said a bad thing 8 years ago, he should be fired and never work again" social media culture...

Wow ! Do you just remember it or is this accessible somewhere on some archive ? I don't remember at all which year it happened either.

Just listened to it. He said it was the most famous thing on DVDVR, I don't think he meant he started it. It did say he started the conversation about which member of a tag team was the best though, and you know what, I actually kinda remember that one ! It's just fascinating to think that those (old mofos) of us who were active on the old DVDVR board probably exchanged with Tony Khan. That kinda blows my mind and is actually really cool and maybe says a lot about why AEW is what it is, and we're getting a fucking FMW match next week (Mox mentioned it wasn't his idea at all and was brought to him). I gotta say, Alvarez popped me when he asked him if he was one of those who argued that Mark Henry was better than whoever because of that match with Kurt Angle.

Agreed. I mean, that is why Taker's arc at Mania is quite interesting. There's no way to make it a numerical exercise, really, for a number of reason, one of which being time obviously and the other being access to footage. And on the global level of the poll, the third being subjectivity, especially in what we each look at that makes us go "This is a great match".

I disagree because it's not happening in a vacuum, plenty of things that have zilch to do with the actual work are responsible for drawing power aka the marketing power of the company, the number of stations they're in, the promos etc... Connection to a crowd is not drawing power. Just like getting a pop is not drawing power. What a worker does with a crowd, I agree, the exemple I always use is the infamous Saturn vs Raven match from WCW where the crowd could not give a flying fuck at the beginning and by the end of the match they were molten and going crazy for Raven's dog & Pony show. That to me is way more impressive as far as good work connecting with a crowd that anything Hogan will do with a captive audience that no matter what he will do will be super hot anyway, because they are already conditioned to be. Agreed. That said, I'm absolutely and more than ever a Great Match Theory supporter, because at some point if you're a great wrestler you're at least gonna have great performances and unless you're very unlucky or work against very shitty opponents all the time or work in the less "great-match-friendly" conducive environment, you're gonna end up having some great matches. So, at the very least, I'm a proponent of Great Performance Theory. (although I hate the term "performance")