El-P

Warrior in WCW was the Fiend already, appearing in mirrors and stuff...

Agreed. Luck is 90% of success anyway.

One thing interesting is the way Netflix and other streaming platform have basically changed the way episodic series are written because of the "binge watching" culture, which is all episodes being available from the beginning. It not only changed the way people watch the shows ie when they want and as much episode as they want in one sitting, but also the way they are written, with less emphasis on huge cliffhangers since there will be no wait needed anyway between two episodes and also and most of all stories spread out on a 10 episodes shows like it was an 8 hours movie instead of a true episodic TV show. Which also means a lot of fillers in the stories because what matters the most is just putting out a lot of "content" on the streaming services. With its week-to-week format, pro-wrestling definitely belongs to the previous era of TV show format, with his pros (the common experience shared by a community at the same time) and cons (the fact younger audience may not be driven to watch such a product, especially since the content they watch on Twitch for live sessions for instance got that interaction aspect with the live chat that a TV show doesn't really have, and no, Twitter doesn't count because it's actually the polar opposite of a live communal chat). The Network oriented WWE already is in the process of just producing random "content" honestly, since what they put on PPV doesn't matter anymore in term of their revenue.

It's funny because South Park really has shown this evolution, with BOTH "sides" being discontent with it. Which I guess is every libertarians dream (I believe both of them defines themselves as libertarians).

Yes, 93-96 sounds right. Even at the beginning, they paired him with Brian Christopher (who had his own qualities, working lucharesu to get over something comparable to the WCW cruiserweight division not being one of them) and had Lawler make a bunch of racist jokes and denied he was the father of Brian so all the focus was on his son and not TAKA. Then he was working with random luchadors with no heat of built with Sunny doing the ring announcing because you know this light heavyweight shit was not gonna get over so might as well display some T&A, and then when Kaientai showed up, like you said, just godawful shit. What a waste.

Yeah, that's right. It was just insane the way they went to justify that Roman push that very obviously their audience did not want. I know it's more of a topic for the other thread, but what strikes me also is that back then you'd get the argument that TV did not matter because women & children at house shows were cheering Roman (same argument as with Cena), ignoring the fact that house show business had been dwindling down to be a money loser, and the COVID actually helped WWE on that matter. Plus, TV actually is all there is as far as getting the money, so the perception you get from the audience on TV is the reality of the product. Again, COVID has been helping WWE in that the controlled fake crowd noise is everything they needed, there's no way the Fiend bullshit would have gotten over with an actual audience.

BTW, another thing about Cena that is quite interesting, they basically sent him off to pastures by basically telling their audience he was OLD just as he was reaching 40 years old. Which is insanity considering the current landscape and even more in term of the average age of pushed WWE guys.

The bad buzz it would get today (rightfully so, it was so damn stupid) would be something else. Well, it's not like anyone thought it was a good idea then either. Meanwhile, I wonder why I remember all of this and what the hell did I do with my life so that I do remember this ?

See also what I'm saying in the "aging thread" about Cena teaching them the terrible lesson that the audience booing the Ace does not matter... when in fact it does and should be listened to. Of course it's not his responsibility per say, but the fact he dealt so well with it fucked up the process big time because WWE suddenly thought it was ok to push whoever they had chosen and that the audience did not matter and should not been listened to.

Yes, that was later on during the Fuyuki era. Micheals little promotion was working alongside FMW and I think that's the first time I saw Daniel Bryan as American Dragon working the undercard of some FMW shows. I believe Micheals was the special ref for H vs "Hayabusa" (who was Gannosuke) or something. Damn, FMW booked by Fuyuki, some fun memories and some not so fun ones... (Exploding Anus Death Match anyone ? Some FMW guys making appearance on some porn because Chokoball Mukai was trying his hands at pro-wrestling ?)

Yeah, I fogot Liger but really, it seems like the only thing he ever did was have two matches with Pillman over half a decade and then show up for Starrcade 96. WWF totally squandered TAKA Michinoku and Kaientai DX, which were some of the hottest workers anywhere in the world (at least TAKA & Togo were). Talk about completely ruining a bunch of great workers who had already everything going for them, as showed by their ECW matches. The dream matches back then was "what if these guys ended up in WCW instead", working with Rey & Juvy & Eddie...

It seems like most of the discussion here is less about "pro-wrestling" than "WWE", really. AEW hits the right demos for announcers apparently (not that I care one way or another about this, really). Since people like to share anecdotes about their nephews on this board, here's one. My nephews (who are turning 18 and 20 this year), used to be fan of the WWE during the early Cena days and the glorious Cena vs Orton feuds and whatnot. I'm guessing the great announcing on French TV helped. But anyway, they were fans until they actually went to one of the show promoted in France back then. Which ended up being a disappointment of sorts if I understand everything right, and their interests basically vanished at the turn of the last decade and never watched again. To this day still, I see 30 something French millennials referring to John Cena as a pop culture figure, but it's obvious their interests basically ended with him too. There's this idea that Cena was the last big star the WWE produced, but it's also the tree that hid the forest. People who grew up Cena fans did not necessarily became long-time pro-wrestling fans. If the average age of the TV viewer has aged so much, it means the biggest part of the audience is fans from 20 years ago, at least. So, at some point maybe it'll be time to re-contextualize Cena's importance for the company, because unlike the big stars of the previous generations (Hogan then Austin/Rock), it doesn't seem like the Cena era was really successful at hooking its audience long term. Plus, Cena taught WWE a terrible lesson because he was so good at dealing with boos, it's that what the audience told them did not matter, hence the Roman Drama and troll booking from the mid 10's and on. The fact Edge, who was a star from the Cena era, really did not pop the ratings in any consistent way speaks more about that period in particular than Edge himself. Sure, Batista would probably pop the ratings, but that has everything to do about his Hollywood career. We often asked ourselves what was next for Mania when WWE would be done with the guys from the late 90's ? Well, here we are, now they are bringing back a guy from the late 00's (as far as his main-event status went), and it does not work quite as good, in a context that has been worse and worse each and every year...

There were these crazy rumours of WWF working with FMW in 1997 too (Shamrock and Vader did work an FMW Stadium show), can you even picture Onita in WWF at this time ? Whereas if it were today, Onita showing up in AEW would be totally "Yeah, sure". Times they are a-changin'...

No chance. The only guy who got over as a star in the US had been the Great Muta, and he was a gimmick. Shinsei Shinzaki who had a killer gimmick and presentation and could work like no one else never got a chance in WWF and after two killer match with Bret was soon back tagging with Barry Horowitz and feuding with the Body Donnas (which in itself wasn't *bad* because Candido vs Hakushi could have been a show stealer anywhere anywhere if given the right attention). The only two Japanese guys who really made it somewhat in the US in the 90's were Ultimo Dragon in WCW, but again he had a really distinct look with the mask and colorful attire and was working in a very ground-breaking division, and Tajiri in ECW (then WWE to a much lesser extent in the 00's), basically doing a Great Muta gimmick of sort and also working a cruiserweight style mostly. Kenta Kobashi with his very AJPW-heavy style with stiffness galore and dangerous suplex would have no one able to work with him and no one would figure out what to do with him in term of presentation. He probably would have gotten the Orient Express music in WWF if in had showed up in the early 90's... Actually, apart from Asuka to a degree, there has never been a true Japanese star in WWE. Nakamura has been an embarrassment to his NJPW legend, but that's at least as much his own doing than WWE for once.

WrestleMania XXVI (2010) – Undertaker vs Shawn Micheals There are cases where the n°2 of a series is better than the first one. And it is strange because this match is both better in many ways and not as good in the grand scheme of things. It’s also kinda the same match but not really the same. The presentation itself doesn’t have nearly the aura of the first one, despite (or because) of the stipulation. I mean, I believe most people knew Micheals was retiring then and this was his « Sorry I love you » match, basically, against his most famous rival/partner in the promotion. So as the previous year was the most unpredictable match of the Streak, this one had to fight again a very high predictability in the result and the fact it could not possibly follow the monster they had produced the previous year. Maybe that’s why the crowd wasn’t as hot at the start or maybe the crowd was just not as hot at this Mania period. Also, the setting was not as cool. Anyway there was this feeling of « hey, it’s awesome but we’ve seen it last year ». And they sure did a good job tweaking it enough that in the end, it wasn’t just the same match, only lesser. First part though was kinda the same match, only in speedrun mode. Micheals going back on working the knee, with this time a good looking Figure Four spot which Taker would reverse (am I the only one getting the irony and callback to the Flair retirement in this spot ?). Taker would again do a great long-ass knee sell, and despite looking not as fit as the previous years, still worked really fast and crisp. BTW, it’s notable that he did not do his flying clothesline in either matches, a spot he was having trouble doing well the previous years. And speaking of spots he won’t do, Micheals prevents him from doing the über-plancha this year. Yeah, that’s the right move, you 45 years old people (fuck, I'm now as old as these two were here!) Speaking of old skins, Taker looks a bit orange... I was using the term speedrun before and you really get that feel when Micheals does the flying forearm-kip-up super quick while Taker is already up and wham! chokeslam into a « nearfall » and then straight into a Tombstone attempt which Micheals counters in a very Kurt Angle way and... actually moves into the ankle lock. Which no one buys. I mean, it’s a stretch to *pin* Taker at Mania, but making him submit, get the fuck out. Yeah, that spot is a miss, it doesn’t work (and the announcers even say that Taker ain’t gonna quit anyway, yawn). They kinda reverse the suspens from last match with a Tombstone outside (off an odd looking bodypress) leading to an early almost credible pinfall attempt. But things really never delve into full « drama sell » mode, they will go into big moves territory with counters but keeping the pace at a reasonable speed. And do new counters too, like Micheals countering the Last Ride by some kinda Waltman-ish X-Factoresque spot (which the announcers, who suck, aren’t sure it’s an actual counter). Another really neat idea is Taker countering the diving elbow (something that *never* happens) by lifting his knees, which also hurts where it had hurt before, so that’s a double psychology winner here. They keep it creative and interesting and don’t screw up spots like last year. The Hell’s Gate is countered Bret Hart style by Micheals into a nearfall (again, terrific idea). That is the strenght of this match, it’s less hellbent on big time drama but actually smarter in the way they work around to not have to rely on the big time drama. Of course the superkick will get kicked out of, as will the Last Ride, so there’s a feel of « predictability » and « finisher spamming » that isn’t as exciting as last year when it’s too literal of a *finisher/kick out* sequence. Moving the match into a different direction that is a callback to Attitude Era stuff and also to the previous year (when Micheals died by the way of moonsault), as Taker gets put through an announcer table via a moonsault off the top rope (which hits straight on Taker's knees, that must have really sucked for both of them). There’s a sense of poetic justice in this spot, which is the big Mania MomentTM spot of the match, and Taker’s selling of his legs once in the ring really make the thing even more dramatic. By that point the pace had to slow down and we reach the «Finish Him! » point of the match. When Micheals kicks out of the Tombstone, it’s not really shocking anymore because he did it the previous year, so in that sense the feel or urgency and drama is a bit lost. So they go into yet another direction, which is basically the « Sorry I love you » part, complete Micheals drama with Taker *not doing* the slit throat gesture, telling Micheals to stay down, only for Micheals to do the gesture himself and slap him, as he asks for the mercy killing. Works a whole lot better than « Sorry I Love you » although it’s also deeply rooted in Micheals heavy sense of melodrama. I mean, considering their career arcs, yes, it does works. Post-match is absolutely wonderful, I wonder if Michaels regrets coming back and looking like crap for some Saudi money he probably didn’t even need after such a perfect send-off, easily one of the best ever. So, the match had to take another road. It could not be as dramatic, so it wasn’t. It was really smart at points, had the one big spot, a crisper work on Micheals part and although Taker looked a bit older he refrained himself from dying doing a stupid dive which was a good decision. As far as how it’s worked, I like it better than the previous year’s match, but it’s a stylistic point. It absolutely doesn't reach the same level of ridiculous epicness and doesn’t have the same aura at all. So it’s both better in some ways and not as good. 9-9 (hey, there’s a sense of culmination that this final match with Micheals would finally make the score equal) (FTR, I totally undersold both these matches back then)

Kill girlfriend : Don't worry, we'll take care of this brutha. Failing to catch Taker on a plancha : YOU'RE FIRED !!!!!!!!!! Some family members are clearly advantaged.

I remember the Tokyo Dome show where he came back from excursion and face Tanahashi and basically fell on his face. I had no idea who he was and wasn't impressed at all. Then there was a switch with the Juice match (in the US I believe) and the G1 where he was part of CHAOS and being a total dick. From there I really enjoyed his work but year after year he just became better and better and better at every aspect of pro-wrestling, great psychology, great execution, great spots, great facials, great attitude character-wise... He's just a pure joy to watch and he's what, 25 ? A small detail, but the beard has improved his look tremendously, he kinda looked like a kid without it. Speaking of pure joy to watch, Naito vs Ibushi was the great pick-me up moment I badly needed today. I'm watching this and I'm like, this is next level pro-wrestling, which I did not expect considering Naito's injury (it did not show at all, Naito looked awesome here). Two matches in two months, I easily have both at MOTYC (ditto the White vs Ishii match from yesterday). The one thing coming off that Great O-Khan match is : Tanahashi is so fucking good, it's ridiculous, because that great O-Khan guy and his pathetic claw hold (Gedo, get your head out of the lame-ass gimmicks of the 80's territories already and watch some UWF instead for a change) is not gonna work out well. The right guy won, I popped for that finish. The three-way was ok. Going from having Hiromu in single to this is a huge letdown of course, and the new champ is like, ok, good for him, but it's not gonna set the division on fire. Kojima should get a last ride push, there's no way you look at him and think he's 50.

It's better that way. I might be mistaken, but I don't think we did tag teams in 2006 either.

FWIW, Meltz has mentioned time and time again that before COVID hit, pro-wrestling was drawing more than it had in a longtime, only WWE was less popular.

Apart from Aldis contract and I guess the belt, there's really nothing to buy.

Ishii & White looked like two of the best wrestlers in the world. Which, they are, really. Great match. No idea how Ishii can still go like that, and White honestly looks like a prodigy now. Awesome pro-wrestling period. Okada vs EVIL was a good match, which for a Okada main event can only pass for a failure of sorts, but then again, EVIL is quite ok when he channels Choshu but otherwise, he's just not a main event guy at all. Enough of this. And the Bullet Club bullshit is beyond beyond BEYOND tired. Plus, two matches back to back with out of the ring bullshit, in exactly the same vein too, doesn't thats strike Gedo as a weee bit redondant ? I've gotta say though, Red Shoes is funny as hell when he makes all the effort in the world to turn his back to whats happening. Come on Uno, be more subtle than this ! Also, cut that Money Clip shit already Okada, even with the clapping restrictions, you can feel the crowd literally die inside everytime he puts it on. KENTA vs Mox was a terrific stiff match, they really beat the hell out of each others. KENTA really shined through this one (much better without any Bullet Club bullshit too). The result is surprising in a good way, because it means more is to come. Can we have that Mox vs Suzuki match now ? Please ? As far as the announcing goes, it's also striking how better it is when Kelly & Romero are working together. Chris Charlton, who makes me think of like Leisure Suit Larry every time I see him, is good for stats and the likes, but he can get pretty grating as a hype man. No idea who the fuck Gino Gambino is nor why he's got a mic, he's totally useless.

NJPW wins awards > WWE brand-bots going "It would get 5 stars at the Tokyo Dome lulz" AEW wins awards > WWE brand-bots going "Meltzer is an employee of Tony Khan !"

Omori would have never been a top guy. Ditto Kea, who was a not a great worker and had zero charisma. They should never have been put over by Misawa. You don't get to the top of then All Japan by being "good". Rikioh got the rub from Kobashi coming off from the greatest run in the company (and pro-wrestling at the time). He failed. Akiyama never really clicked on top like Kobashi did. Something about him... One thing you can criticize Misawa for in NOAH is giving is pal Ogawa the title. Ok, it was fun, Ogawa did the best job he could with it, but it did not work at all and probably hurt the title a bit then, although that was quickly forgotten.

I stand corrected. I can never think of his acronym right for some reason (probably because I don't think of his actual name).

Chapter 7 : The Self-Conscious Epics ? WrestleMania XXV (2009) – Undertaker vs Shawn Micheals Here we are. The Greatest Mania Match Ever. I’m not sure they began the whole « point at sign » bit during this build-up (they sure did do it here) but this match was all about the Mania brand, as the Streak itself was a huge part of it at this point. And who better than Shawn Michaels for the ultimate dream match, as his nickname has been Mr. WrestleMania in a very meta way as it came from the fact the had the best « performances » at Mania. Dating back to the infamous ladder match up to the previous year’s « Sorry I love you », Micheals whole identity at Mania is that he was the one stealing the show, he was producing the most memorable moments. The Mania MomentsTM if you will, whereas Taker had the Streak, and it really did not matter that half of his matches were actually pretty bad if not godawful. You’ll excuse me for going semiotics and shit for a second : both The Streak and Mania had reached the point of being at the same time signifiers and signified. Which is the apex of the corporate dream of WWE. Well, except you still gotta do a match about it and this is, pardon the pun, the perfect match indeed, because Micheals is basically the one guy you really buy can break the winning streak of Taker, simply because of who he is. I’m not gonna go into the religious aspect of the angle, but let’s say Micheals coming from the heaven in a white angelic garb while Taker came from the depths of hell (via a trap door) like a satanic creature (wearing satanic designs on his tights too) is quite the ornamentation and one reason more to Believe (pun intended) that Micheals could win. In other words, those fucking entrances ! Probably the biggest big match feel ever in WWE and easily one of the biggest big match feel ever anywhere anytime. Also, the crowd is as molten as a nuclear plant in Ukraine. Insane sustained heat only going up for the peaks. Just crazy stuff, really. Ok, but they do work a match. And what a match that is. Taker is still looking super fit, Micheals himself is way lighter than he was in his prime. Both show their age on their faces though. Funny how Micheals became a great chop thrower in the later part of his career, and Taker sells like with enthusiasm. Damn they work quicker than any 44 years old should, with really super dynamic exchanges earlier on. Old-School is done early, as always (when it’s not countered, which is not here), so that’s one out of the way. Taker is using the old Nash spot of getting caught above the ropes into a straight jump onto the corner. The older he got, the quicker and the more velocity he displayed. Working basically one match a year probably helped too. This is leading into Micheals working the left knee, including a Sharpshooter tease and a very awkward Figure-Fourish hold. The nice detail is Micheals blocking Taker’s right hand to prevent getting goozled, which happens all the time. The knee sell of Taker will be pretty consistent and detailed throughout this whole part of the match, even on offense. BTW, JR is announcing and he’s really good here, familiar territory for him. Snake-Eyes/Big Boot with Micheals taking one of his classic rolling bumps, really that first part is better than any other match thus far. Chokeslam tease countered into a crossface, which is pretty neat from Micheals who has updated his offensive repertoire over the years. That being said, trying to submit Taker is kinda too bold to be believable, but it’s also early on so it’s ok. Micheals also does his classic stuff like the flying forearm followed by the kip-up (after a bunch of selling though), which JR points out he *doesn’t have to do* but will do because he’s Shawn Micheals at Mania. Again, great announcing from JR. Ok let's put it out there already, Micheals was great and I kinda forgot honestly (for a number of reasons), and he’s also still using some very 80’s offense like atomic drops and shit to really good effect, which was kinda cool. Another chokeslam tease countered with a superkick that doesn’t hit *at all*, but the sequence going straight into Taker’s Hell’s Gate makes the screw-up totally innocuous (Lawler even admits Micheals totally missed the kick), as the drama is all about Micheals reaching for the ropes and going outside. A notable counter is Michaels escaping Taker’s apron legdrop (a first at Mania and probably not many have done it), nice touch. But the REAL switch moment of the match happens in two moves : first Michaels does a moonsault from the top rope outside and Taker basically steps back and lets him crash to the floor, it’s insanely brutal and almost looks like a botch (seems like Micheals injured his wrist on this) and then Taker doing his über-plancha onto a cameraman that Micheals dragged in front of him and.... ALMOST LANDS ON HIS FUCKING HEAD ! I have no idea how Taker did not kill himself on that spot. No idea. It looks like he’s falling vertically, head straight down onto the cameraman/floor. One of the scariest spot I’ve ever seen. From there, its’ basically another match that is gonna take place, as both of them will now sell FOREVER between spots. While they reshow Taker diving into certain death a hundred times, nothing happens until Micheals slowwwwly gets back into the ring and want a count-out. This has now slowed down to a snail pace. Taker has been down for like three minutes now. The whole count-out thingy is cute, but come on now, the Streak ending on a count out ? Get the fuck out. It works, but it’s still pushing it and we’re almost five minutes of *nothing* happening. I get it, but it’s not an approach that I enjoy, it’s tooooo dragged out for me. So now it’s time for the Slow Conscious Epic, with first a chokeslam from hell (Micheals is taking such an admirable bump for this) then more seeeeeeeell. It does work because the audience is in sustained heat mode, which is quite amazing to hear honestly. Sweet chin music after a chokeslam counters and it takes almost ten seconds before the pinfall attempt. It’s not milking the cow, it’s milking a herd of cows. Classic spot of « You don’t get near Taker when he’s down because he’s gonna get you by the throat » into a Last Ride countered but not well enough, so Micheals goes for it and it is a legit great nearfall. But until the Tombstone ain’t there, you know this ain’t over people. Taker attempting the Micheals elbow from the tope rope and failing was a nice touch, but they risk losing the heat by selling for too long between spots now. Can’t deny they find interesting ways to do pretty much everything at this point though, as Taker gets Micheals into the Tombstone spot from the outside and the skin-the-cat spot. False finish with Micheals kicking out, pretty awesome, complete with Taker’s body language selling the WTFuckery of the moment. But then again they lose sooooo much time selling. I understand what they do but I don’t really enjoy this approach, which can only work with this one-of-a-kind crowd. A totally screwed up DDT used as a counter, that was sloppy, and Micheals is in full overdramatic acting mode as he’s climbing the ropes for the flying elbow, which never was a finisher. And this is a point where the snail pace needs FINISHERS, not lead-in spots. Sweet-chin music again (with people counting along the stomps) and a kick-out-of-finisher that works (I mean, who will complain about that one, in this context ?). They are basically exhausting the big epic Mania match format, and again, why not ? If not them and now, who will ? Still, you can feel this should never be duplicated (*wink wink nudge nudge*) because no context would ever allow it to work like it does here and now. A shot exchange,which has happened in most later Taker matches, very NJPW style but here it’s punch vs chops, getting the pace up again and the crowd pumped up even more with back and forth chants. At this point the name of the game seems to be whoever hits a finisher first is gonna win. And the finish is Micheals going for the moonsault inside the ring this time, which is a huge mistake as he's getting caught by Taker into the Tombstone, awesome looking spot, great finish. So, it is definitely *not my preferred style* as the super slow selling during the entire second half can get grating. BUT, if you consider what they were going for, in the context they were working in, factoring the crowd who was in sustained heat state the whole time, it would be stupid not to acknowledge that this is an amazing match. This one absolutely reached for the mythical status and succeeded. I would say after that one, the Streak had reached the point where it really should not have ended. 8-9