El-P

Disagree, the belt has been totally fine on Riho before and Shida is a really good champ too (despite the booking of her feuds being weak). You know Britt is gonna get it eventually anyway, but she's in a heated feud with Thunder Rosa now, so that makes two major angles for the women : the tournament final & Thunder vs Britt. If Britt wins, you only get one. Nyla needed to get some re-building after she lost the belt. In a way I'm glad Fénix is not gonna do that ladder match, at least we know he'll live another day. He should definitely get a run with a belt sooner than later, and he can do it both as a heel or a babyface.

Agree 100%. Strictly in-ring work, no promo. But like I said, there's no way English speaking voters won't be affected anyway by what they *know* of the promo ability of X or Y, there's no way around cognitive biases like. Not to mention a shitload of other cognitive biases. So yeah, probably, the only reasonable one is "based on footage". And maybe some negative criterias about factual stuff like : drawing power is NOT a criteria.

Thanks for the clarification, I was less familiar with everything post Kobashi NOAH tbh, although I've watched quite a bit then.

We think we like things because they are actually good for us, when in fact we convince ourselves things are good for us because we like them. In other words, there is no such things as objectivity in aesthetical judgment. The list will never represent anything more than a snippet of the time and the people who put it together. Which is why two things annoyed the fuck out of me last time around and it became *not fun* in the end 1/ This. Ridiculous amount of last minutes voters who were nowhere around the discussions and sharing, which really screwed up the results. 2/ The forcing by people who had seemingly all the time on their hand to incessantly promote a few candidates (you know who I mean) to the absolute detriment of the overall discussion. Absolutely frustrating, took the fun right out of the process. There's no way of rationalizing criterias for such a list, as I already see people talking about promo ability, which by default penalizes everyone not English speaking (and really, anyone not from the US scene). Then again, what would the point be of rationalizing one element when you have a hundred others who can't. Using promos is an advantage toward English speaking workers but not using promos don't change the fact the list will be put together mostly by English speaking people, and mostly americans. Not everybody can watch 3000 matches. Watching 3000 matches doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme of things (just like having 30 years experience at a job means shit, as you can suck at it for 30 years). Not everyone has access to the French stuff Dan & others are watching. Not everyone will want to watch old joshi puroresu. Not everyone has a taste for old shootstyle nor has access to it. By default the most mainstream and biggest promotions will always gets favorited one way or another. By default the "museified" (it it's not a word now it's officially one) candidates will always have a huge jumpstart over all the others because of a status that can be too heavy to discuss. Not everyone will want to revisit for the thousands time old Ric Flair or Bret Hart or Jumbo matches, because it has been exhausted. There will always be recency bias (both in term of "this is exciting because it is new" and "this is exciting because it's just been discovered"). There will always be trouble to find a common ground even when discussing things like "selling" and "psychology", because everybody has a different take on it... Etc. So. My advice to all would be to CHILL THE FUCK OUT. If you do a list, what matters most is the process, and the process should be FUN for everyone involved. If not, I don't even see the point. What @Grimmas said about not wanting to be a boy's club is probably the best idea too. As long as people involved discuss together and we don't get some of the same bullshit as the last time (like the anti-lucha/pro-lucha debacle, on both fronts BTW, for instance). If I make a list, the only criteria will be that both my *own* process and my *own criterias* will basically work *for me*, taking in consideration whatever time I have in my life, whatever time I want to give this and most of all as long as it doesn't feel like WORK. Too many people got "afraid" last time around or did not feel like they "watched enough" (which is the worst argument ever, really) and were literally drove away by the ugly side of the process. That was a bit sad, honestly. So there, that was my ranting about the GWE.

Yes. It's obvious when you watch the booking. He put the title on himself first to pass it to Akiyama and make him the top guy. Then he defeated Takayama, who was an outsider, to pass it to Kobashi and kickstart the legendary reign. Then when the first Marufuji reign did not work out, he got the title back to try and make Morishima's win important. NOAH was never about Misawa.

So, the Young Bucks actually are the sons of Waylon Mercy. You know what I mean ?

The fact they are running Moose vs Swann as an IMPACT + instead of the PPV makes me think they could indeed go with Swann vs Omega at the PPV. Which could mean Moose was only built up to put Swann over (kinda odd as he really looks like the biggest star they have now after that tremendous build and he has never won the title yet). Or go for a three-way. I could definitely see Omega winning the "double title" then, whether he still has the AEW one or not.

And then Rubin asked for a mummy.

"Who the fuck hired Raven ?!"

Well, it has been announced already that Wight is gonna do the announcing on a Monday Youtube show called Dark: Elevation.

Yeah, I thought it was quite good too, and I don't like that gimmick. The whole show really flowed well actually, and they fixed the awkward sound mixing of the past few weeks with a much less annoying fake crowd sound. The 6-men X-division match was something else, apparently Taurus and Decay are set for a serious push (whatever that means about Sammy refusing the stuff he was given). Another highlight was D'Amore going full Vince mode with the "an eye for an eye match next week !", only to completely shit on the gimmick a few moments after. Funny stuff. Remember this actually happened ? I wonder if the whole "let's make the TNA Title official" is basically leading to a unification so they can have their double title too. I would guess and hope so, because I don't see the point otherwise, and it's obvious Moose is gonna get tha IMPACT title sooner than later now.

I had forgotten this promo... I know why. Actually, I gotta say this, I was quite underwhelmed by Al Snow in SMW too. Snow is a guy who had that reputation and got over like crazy in ECW thanks to the Head gimmick, but the more I actually watched his stuff, the less I thought of his work. Maybe Foley was shooting when he was shitting on his work and sense of humour...

Oh yeah, that was bad. Let's face it, the last year or so of SMW was not good. Maybe it has something to do with Kane being part of the roster. It has to.

They ain't TNA.

"The titanic has sunk" Yeah, it's not like he had a hot stint elsewhere in-between like Jericho, so basically it's a guy who was in WWE from 1999 until last year. Odds on JR calling him The Big Show as early as tomorrow ?

There's this period in WCW, maybe when Watts was back, and Ross was full-on college football mode, he was legit unbearable. That's the thing with JR, you can talk about his peak work all you want, but he's been extremely hit and miss forever, alterning phase of being really good and phases of down right sucking (the UWF period strikes me as another one terrible JR phase, although it's been probably 15 years since I watched any of this).

Wow, that's is a total WTF moment ! Yeah, I figured the guy was a WWE lifer. I hope they fucking call him the Giant ! Hey, a special appearance here and there and put people over, why not. But let's not get the way of the Stinger, who has been diminishing returns each and every week thus far (well, until his ass got powerbombed, that was unexpected)

It's funny because it goes back to the stuff I was saying in the Corny thread about Matt Jackson and in a more broader way about should X do Y if it doesn't fit his "character/gimmick". And my answer basically is : if it adds something positive, yes of course. Which is also part of why the whole "character work" talking point to me is usually overstated. I mean, we should have a less fun announcing team with Taz not straying at all from what his character is "supposed to be", with the preconception that he should not have fun at all, which is dubious to me anyway because why not ? He can be pissed when he's talking business but that doesn't mean he should not have fun when he's announcing. Plus, really, one can argue it hurts his character a bit *in theory*, but does it really ? I mean, does anyone takes Taz less seriously as a heel manager because he's having fun with Excalibur on Dark ? I mean, really, honestly, in 2021, I don't think the audience has that much of a one track mind. They are willing to play along. I mean, you said it yourself, it makes for great commentary (and FUN commentary, which is something that is a bit forgotten sometimes these days), so to me that's the end of the story. I take great commentary (or a great spot) over a stricter "character work" (which by definition is too reducive and attached to a gimmick or stereotype) any day of the week. On the matter of putting fun in announcing, it's why I still enjoyed Heenan in WCW most of the time, because he made things fun, and sometime when the matches or angles aren't that good, the announcing just makes the TV easy to watch anyway, whereas if it's way too serious, well, it just falls on its face or is plain boring.

Same here, Schiavone/Jesse might be my all-time favorite announcer duo. The most random cool pairing of all time might be Gorilla Mansoon/Raven Johnny Polo, because Levy was too damn smart to let himself get swallowed up by Gorilla.

Ventura > Heenan > Lawler When Ventura was replaced with Heenan in WCW, I felt the announcing dropped quite a bit. Sure, Heenan was entertaining, but Ventura came off so *smart* and wasn't a one-liner machine. Lawler was always a mix of entertaining a-la Heenan and cringe (especially later on in the Attitude Era). Post 2001 Lawler is worthless once he basically stopped doing the heel stuff and became just another WWE drone. I really enjoy them together for that reason too. That's why Matthews & Callis and then Matthews & Rayne were such a fun announcing team, no matter how dull Matthews could sound off its own, their interactions made the show sooo easy to watch and always fun no matter if the actual pro-wrestling wasn't the best. With Striker & D-Lo, my enjoyment of IMPACT has really dropped sadly (the irony, just as they are doing the cool interpromotionnal matches, it would have been so much more fun with Matthews/Rayne and or Callis), that's how much a great little announcing team can do. The obsession with three men booth without a real color guy doesn't do anyone any favor. I enjoy AEW's announcing mostly because Excalibur is really good and I love to hear Schiavone mark out to the current stuff, but JR is just not any good most of the time (he still has flashes, but they are rarer than his fuck-ups). They had Shawn Spears on Dark once and he was actually excellent on heel-color, I wouldn't mind having him on that role. Taz rules, of course.

I thought the presentation was excellent, really liked the setting. But it's hard for me to get invested in a show with random guys having random matches twice a year, although they tried to tie in former victories. Also, no women match with was a disappointment. I enjoyed Romero vs Grimm the most I think, in a "undercard UWF-I match with random gaijins" way. DBS Jr. has been kind of a letdown on the last two Bloodsport shows to me. Mox vs Barnett could be great fun though.

The issue to me is that what made Lucha Underground so great was 1/the awesome production 2/the roster full of legit great workers and then can't-miss prospects (yeah, I know, Ricochet in WWE, lulz) 3/the awesome setting. MLW has exactly none of this. They don't have the budget nor know-how to do the great vignettes, the roster is gone, their setting is really cheap-looking. What's left ? I mean, they brought back Mil Muertes which should be cool but they have done nothing of note with him and without the great production he looks like Gilbert El Boricua with a mask. They did a really bad "jungle fight" last week against Savio Vega which was basically a bunch of brawling in some suburb park pretending to be Aztec jungle or something, it was really lame honestly and I love this kind of ideas and I also don't mind old Savio doing nothing but hard chops. So, people are talking about Dario Cueto showing up, ok, but in the context of a B-movie version of what used to be a great show (not the 4th season, ok) without 97% of the cast and none of the budget nor the directors. So... Yeah honestly, this is cool "on paper", like a lot of things with MLW, but MLW never delivers. This is the only thing that made me look at some MLW lately, and like I said, I ended up disappointed. So, a part of me is like "wow, this is pretty cool" but the main part of me is like "meh, MLW".

What's funny in hindsight with SMW (I also really enjoyed watching SMW TV, especially when Dutch Mantell was announcing, he was just the greatest) is that is was promoted as "pro-wrestling like it used to be". In 1993. Like it used-to-be. Cornette was already geared toward the past 25 years ago. I thought the match layout sucked, it made Vader look like an idiot. Of course as far as pure in-ring working, Vader never could be Vader in WWF except when he met Shamrock, but that match booking with the interruptions was the pits. Micheals had a better match overall with fucking Sid.

WrestleMania 23 (2007) – Undertaker vs Batista Ten years after Sid, Taker challenges for the World (Smackdown) Title. Maybe the most impressive entrance, with a wall of flames, crazy fog and thunder and the mythical figure slowly walking down the ring for clearly the biggest big match feel yet, Batista being a really strong and imposing presence, selling the impatience and anxiety inside the ring really well. At this point, this gigantic intro, which is now unchanging, really gives the sense of the Myth. It's like its repetition each and every (or so) year is what matters the most in the grand scheme of things, more than the matches themselves actually. The fact there’s something that always looks exactly the same in a very grandiose way and that it’s directly linked with the evergrowing numerical Streak makes it almost like it was always there as it is now (which it wasn't) and as it is supposed to be seemingly forever. The match itself is both the best Taker match at Mania yet and pretty much the perfect match for an intense big time stadium show with two beasts colliding. Batista brings so much intensity and energy to every spot he does, nothing is refined but everything looks violent. His punches aren't the greatest, kinda like jacked-up Rock slap-punches, but the velocity he gives them makes them look efficient. It’s also worth pointing out that Taker is the fittest he’s ever been, wearing kickpads (the MMA fetish in effect) and looking lean and ripped. Which also translates into his work, as honestly I don’t think I’ve seen him any crisper. With the exception of a very dubious flying clothesline (poor connecting, kinda messy), he’s also bumping hard, jumping high (his legdrop on the apron looked fantastic), moving fast. It’s really a bomb throwing match, Taker doing his most perfect over the top rope plancha and Batista going Attitude Era big spot with a brutal powerslam on the announce table (while always going back to break the count, which is refreshing). It must be said that the crowd is also molten, going wild for Taker and booing every time Batista gets the advantage. Nice way of making the most out of every big spots, as the powerslam outside very quickly goes back in for a nearfall. From there they do work the now famous trope of Batista going up in the corner, but in a much more organic way this time, as Batista was totally into a phase of punching Taker left and right first on the mat then in the corner, so it’s like he just wants to get some more traction. Of course, that leads to the Last Ride for a Taker nearfall. Chokeslam means another Taker nearfall and this is just terrific until the end, as Batista finally plants his Batista Bomb, which he had teased earlier, for a great nearfall with an excellent (and justified) despaired look afterward. Batista wanting to be too cute and wanting to use the Tombstone leads his demise, as Taker wins the title. Terrific match, best Taker match until that point by a very wide margin, pretty much the perfect bomb throwing stadium match they could have done, and also the best Taker single performance at Mania, at 42 years old. 6-9

Thanks ! Oh yeah, now that you mention it I heard it was Patterson indeed (I guess from the same Corny interview). No idea why they thought it was a good idea, it totally killed the pace.