El-P

Fuck me, I barely even mentioned Kenny Omega the last three pages of this thread, it was all about Cornette being an old jerk, difference of generations and spots that should be used or not in relations to their character/gimmick (stemming from the Matt Jackson's discussion). So.. hum... really now ? As far as fact goes, his success both in Japan and now the US is not an opinion, his role in the creation of AEW is not an opinion. When Corny say stupid stuff like "Booo Kenny and the Bucks are killing the business, they aren't stars, they will never be successfull, AEW is an outlaw mud show that is not successful", you have nothing else to do but state facts. I know some people are in such denial mode that they'll go to Mars and back to not recognize those simple facts, but...

Yes, kinda, because Laz thought it was sooo ironic that I would use some 43 year old reference (and not a good one either, because 1978 is not even the best year for punk rock and that is apparently a fact and not an opinion, see) to make fun of Cornette being stuck in the past, yet one has nothing to do with the other since I don't care about punk rock so I don't defer to something that was 43 years ago as being inherently better like Cornette does (no, I don't mean specifically 43 years ago). So yeah, maybe it's not "ironic" (well, kinda still), it was just a dumb way to try and point out "irony" where there was really none. Like I say, wanna point out irony about my little joke about pro-wrestling and punk rock, just mention that punk rock was basically a "back to the roots" movement, which in a way, is reactionary (whereas post-punk wasn't). Like Cornette.

Stuff I got out of this week's episode : 1/ I forgot how fucking good Riho was, as that match with Deeb (such a joy to watch) was dope 2/ Kenny Omega is the WWE champion 3/ Neck injuries have been cured all over the map. 4/ Maybe by the time I'm 70, if I live that long, Brandy & Cody's daughter will win the AEW Women's title at Revolution for the first time and I'll remember this moment, while the same year, Charlotte will headline WrestleMania against Bailey & some girl from NXT Emirates (as the show will air from Abou Dabi) and win her 775th WWE women's title. 5/ AEW is running a 4/4 Kawasaki Stadium no-rope-explosive-barb-wire death-match in 2021 and the old Onita fan in me just lost his mind

Thanks. I'm pretty tired also, so I have no doubt my ranting got confusing. Yes, we probably do agree more than we disagree. And really, re-reading my first post, yeah, it was bad judgement on my part, I should actually have made another thread and started with "This talk about Matt Jackson in the Cornette thread made me think about the issue of doing spots "oustide" the realm of you character/gimmick" or something. It's just me being both lazy and impulsive.

Again, the talk about Matt Jackson doing that spot which seems to bother some people on this thread just made me react and talk about a bunch of stuff I had in my head. I probably should not have quoted you specifically, as you took it as I was replying strictly to what *you* said (and even personal attacks, which really were the furthest thing from my mind, I mean why would I do that ?), when really like I said it was much more broader thoughts on the matter. Sorry about that.

I will never defend you for pimping Demolition so hard in the past. NEVER.

No. I just disagree with the idea that X doing Y is inherently wrong because it "wouldn't fit his character". If it's done well, if it works as part of the flux of a match, and if it's fun to watch to boot, have at it. Matt Jackson doing his nothern light double suplex never bothered me in the slighest, and why should it. One thing that bothers me every time however for instance, is a spot you force on an opponent who would never do it otherwise because you want to counter/bump off it aka "You Can't Powerbomb Kidman" (also know as "I'm Ric Flair, gorilla press slam me please !").

I know it was, but still, there is a moral judgement here because for you, it did harm the quality of the matches (that is up for debate or simply taste, but there you go). Therefore it was *bad*, but not *bad* from an execution standpoint (something you don't seem to care about as much as I do), bad because, as you or someone else put it, it was "vanity" work from Michaels.

Understood, and I agree above these above points. If he does power moves, he's *actually* presented as being able to do them. I mean, to me it's as simple as that. For instance, when Okada tried and tried and tried to get his damn Cobra Clutch over during last G1 and it was obvious it killed the pace of the matches and the crowd did not go along, to me that was a mistake. Matt has done those nothern lights forever, they're part of his repertoire, to me it does look pretty good and is a fun spot... I mean, at some point, the spots define the worker (or as you'd put it, the character/gimmick), not the other way around. If you *actually* can't do jackshit, your best shot is to be a no-selling monster. Which is why the whole "he plays his role well" argument never flew with me, to me it was a defense of mediocre or even crappy workers who did not do much at all because, well, they just weren't very good otherwise.

I don't agree and I explained why. Assigning a worker to a reducive view of what he's "supposed" to do based on a gimmick/character is a dated view to me (BTW, it's also true of gimmick matches). Plus it really never worked that way as soon as you get into "great workers" territory. Like for instance, the idea that the heels are not the ones who should do the most exciting moves and that those should be reserved for the babyfaces, which is something I heard a billion times. Reality is, if you take for instance the most classic tag team US feud ever, which is used basically as the greatest staple for how "tag team wrestling should be worked", the MX vs Rock'n'Roll Express, well, the fact is the MX had by far the flashiest, most impressive and awe-inducing offense of the two teams, mostly thanks to Bobby Eaton, who was outworking every babyface he ever met, including Ricky Morton, in term of doing cool moves and spots. Again, broader statement about pro-wrestling in general.

I took your comment and from there made broader statements about pro-wrestling in general. It had nothing to do with you personally. The "moral" values comment stems from @Matt D talking earlier in the thread about Shawn Micheals using his pro-wrestling understandings for "evil" reasons, which is, infact, a moral judgment.

I love when Meltz and Alvarez just debate in the most matter-of-fact-ish, deadpan way ever of the most absurd things, like when they were talking about that 1000 years old woman in NXT, with Meltz going on about it's surprising because they usually go toward the youth factor for women, Alvarez not believing anyone could actually live that long and Meltz replying that "Mathusalem was about 900 years old but I always thought it was a work", without even blinking or sounding remotely amused about what they are discussing. Deadpan Meltzer can be really funny as hell.

They actually did, in BTE. Several times. No, because some of the best long-term psychology and storytelling in pro-wrestling matches has probably happened during the last 5 years. Wait, no, the irony is that I don't give a flying fuck about punk rock nor what was the best year for punk rock 43 years ago or whatever. I was just referencing a period where old fuckers complained about the younger generation because "they don't know how to..." and "they don't respect the guys who paved the way before then" and whatever. Really, if you really wanted to make a serious point about it and drop the "irony" on my ass, you could have referenced the fact that punk, like it's been said in Retromania, the excellent book by Simon Reynolds, in itself had a very reactionary aspect to it, in that in many ways it was a move "back to the essence of the old rock'n'roll from the 50's". So anyway. It's still quite interesting that never before I've experienced such a huge pull-back from an entire generation toward the following generation. Maybe because I had to reach a certain age to actually witness an entire generation go by, so that the difference would be significant enough. Like I said, can't wait for the millenials to get old and shit on those zoomers who can't work and do whatever they will instead of playing video games like real pro-wrestlers used to do in the good ol' days of Kenny Omega & the Young Bucks, before WWE was sold to Disney and Triple H became president of the USA.

WrestleMania XX (2004) – Undertaker vs Kane Because of all Taker’s opponents we needed to see twice, they choose Kane... This is a complete revival match and angle as they return the Dead Man gimmick, complete with Paul Bearer looking really unhealthy and the entrance from Mania 14 with the druids carrying torches. This is basically the final look for Taker, the long leathery coat & hat with MMA gloves, although he’s still dressed at Diesel once the match starts. Kane wears no mask (insert random joke about Covid there) so he’s ugly as fuck and his « shocked » acting consist of shaking his head a lot (like he's confronted with the result of last's year election or something). Complete nothing match, Taker does a few of his typical run-of-the-mil stuff while Kane totally screws up a back bodydrop, does a shitty big boot and his hilarious « clothesline from the top rope » where he has landed on both his feet before his hand barely makes contact with Taker. Also, once the excitement of seeing Taker back in his old self is done, the crowd couldn’t give less of a flying fuck about this match, especially when Kane is on offense. The only thing that awakes them is Taker going for the rope-walk which is gonna get countered this time into a chokeslam attempt before a battle of the choke, which is always super thrilling to witness, really... Oh yeah, and for the first time in years, we get the zombie sit-up, which gets probably the biggest pop of the actual match. Also, Kane apparently can't kick out of the Tombstone anymore now, he's a total JTTS here... No idea why this was even taking place, it’s 2004 and this was a bad match (and just as heatless) 6 years before already. Complete nothing match not even accomplishing anything except re-introducing Taker as the old Dead Man, which reeks of character reboot for nostalgia purpose (yes, we're deep in the 00's and the past is already looking more appealing to the WWE). Waste of Mania time, especially for Mania 20 at the MSG. Kane sure was a safe worker though, in that it was always a safe bet you’re gonna get a shitty, boring match with him. I reiterate, I had not watched him in years and he’s even worst than I remembered. 4-8

I think it was a on the KC WWF 1995 Year in Review. The most obvious spot was Shawn over-rotating on Nash's Jacknife. Nash was like "Yeah of course you're gonna do that !"

I just thought about that one when I was writing my previous post. Yeah, isn't that crazy ? Bret totally had a point, but then Shawn gets saddled with that old fucker for his entire champion stint and gets booed the hell out of MSG, while Bret comes back and insist on having that feud with Austin, which will end up being the most important one by FAR, and much better than anything Shawn has done during that entire time.

He failed miserably against Tiger Mask Misawa.

I for one am glad. Vince injecting himself into the scene as a "pro-wrestler" at the Rumble and then at St Valentines was a part (a big part even) of killing my WWF fandom back then. Hogan vs Vince was one of the most ridiculous and putrid vanity matches I've ever seen, and by no mean I'm a Hogan fan.

And honestly, he was right, it absolutely did not fit his character at all to have the young, jumping around hearthrob World champ being followed by some old guy who was not even a famous guy from the company's history (not that it would have changed anything). The only good use of Lotahrio was getting blasted by Sid.

The issue is that, as always with Corny, it's old stuff. Who knows, maybe you'd ask Omega and he'll tell you he was dead wrong back then and was just a young punk. And maybe he wouldn't but that would be irrelevant anyway because, again, his track record speaks of itself. I mean, Corny is pissed for stuff that happened 15, 20 years ago and stays stuck there forever (like he's been stuck with the idea that Omega is a mud-show attraction because he wrestled that kid once, years ago, and the reality of main eventing huge shows with Okada in historical matches just can't even reach him, much less make him think). The one thing I get from all of this is that pro-wrestling isn't very punk-rock at all. It's like it's 1978 all over again and a bunch of aging, balding uncool guys (ie Corny, in this case) are whining about those scrawny looking kids who don't even know how to play their guitar because they haven't been taught properly and can't for the life of them play a nice solo. And let's not even go into the "hip-hop is not real music" stuff, which unironically enough I've heard Corny say too btw. As far as *having to respect* the elders who "paved the way" and the usual bullshit, ya know, when a whole lot of them where truly awful people, I'm not sure this is a requisite either.

So it pretty much invalidates the fact that they were conscious of the Streak, because otherwise they would not have booked Taker in a tag-team match. OR, they did get conscious of it and they used the pretext of Jones sucking to take him out the match at the last moment.

No idea, but that would be quite funny. "Fuck man, you suck, let Taker & Train have a good match and you'll only show up at the end to do the one spot your sorry ass can do !" It's not like Nathan Jones lit the world on fire after that either.

WrestleMania XIX (2003) – Undertaker vs A-Train & Big Show What an odd match to book. Way to make Big Show nothing special at all, although that ship had sailed a long time ago anyway. It’s quite interesting that WWE (finally) moved Mania back into big stadiums each year after their peak years of the Attitude Era, making Mania mean more than it ever had before despite their constant loss of overall popularity. And I love the stadium settings with crazy entrance sets too, so that's all good for me. And there’s a crazy entrance for you as Limp Bizkit (it was really the end of the line for him in term of mainstream pop culture relevancy) is rollin rollin rollin live with a bunch of dancers to boot and Biker Taker rolls on his ride with the USA (that would need to be made great again eventually) flag. I can’t stand Bizkit but as a pro-wrestling entrance in this context and setting, yeah, it does slap. Hey, a Smackdown ref ! And Micheal Cole announcing and actually referring to the 10-0 streak ! Here we are ! And maybe the booking of this match kinda came from that very fact, that the Streak was now a really conscious thing so it was enough to just throw Taker a bunch of monsters to kill again. But unlike in the 90’s, it’s actually good ! Nothing classic at all, but A-Train was a terrific worker as showed here, he carries almost the entire load, and I don’t just mean of the match, as Big Show is late-WCW heavy and produces barely more than King Kong Bundy in 95. A-Train goes in the air for the chokeslam after about 10 seconds so you know how much these guys matter, but the match is short, dynamic (apart from a quite laughable abdominal stretch spot as if both these guys turned into I.R.S.), with Taker showing his brand new passion : shootsyle mofo ! Turning Big Show’s attempted chokeslam into an arm bar actually looked pretty damn cool. But really, it’s A-Train being a really good working big guy here, also taunting Taker as he’s not « the Big Dog ! ». Taker on fire (amazing contrast when you think about his early 90’s match, you could make a case it’s not even the same guy) doing Old School and even the flying clothesline, nothing is pretty but it’s just pretty explosive all along. The finish involves Nathan Jones of all people, yeah, remember that guy ? Me neither. Those bizarre post Attitude Era/pre-John Cena days I guess. So anyway, he’s kicking some monster’s ass and Taker does a fat Tombstone on A-Train. Short and surprisingly good and fun, from the totally over the top intro to the dynamic action with A-Train as an excellent dance partner. 4 -7

Pathetic like an old guy who instead of enjoying himself after a great career is forcing himself to do something he hates to cater to an audience of haters, because apparently it makes him some dough. Life is too short. He's obviously not gonna change *anything* about where pro-wrestling is now nor where it's going (which is something no one knows about, and that's the exciting part). Hey, maybe he's getting some elation about hating something or someone, his track record certainly seems to indicate as much. But then again, it's a sad way of reaching for joy. If Corny and his followers get schadenfreude out of spending time watching something they hate, well, I guess to each their own... BTW, my defense of Matt really was about something I feel very strongly about pro-wrestling in general, so it's really more about this than about the Bucks themselves (I'm well beyond the idea of having to "defend" them like I would some guys I like from IMPACT for instance, the Bucks & Omega are the zeitgeist).

Honestly this thread is beating on a dead horse soooo much. I mean, if you want to criticize the current stuff, you can do it without referring to that old sad carny whose only activity is hate-watching for $ purposes. This is so pathetic, honestly.