El-P

Yeah, because Monday Night Raw should be and is the reference of what a great pro-wrestling product looks like in 2019... It's like, so damn good.

Honestly, I have no idea how someone with a remotely credible background in audio-visual producing can watch this and not think this is total amateur hour. I've seen Youtubers shot and edit better action scenes than this with a budget of a few hundred euros. The "great WWE production" is a complete joke. They have the richest production in pro-wrestling, but that's it. I dunno how FOX executives can watch that shit and believe it's good TV. I've seen porn shot and acted better than this scene. It's embarrassing even for pro-wrestling standards, and that covers a whole lot of ground. This is WCW 2000 level of shit.

They are not unathletic comedy guys. The Dark Order gimmick sucks, but the talent doesn't. Have you even see any of these guys work ? To say they are unathletic comedy guys is simply factually wrong. The whole "they don't look like athletes" is an incredibly dated reference. Maybe I don't mind because I'm an old ECW fan. And lately, a LU fan.

Really now ? https://www.allelitewrestling.com/roster (switch PAC for Stunt) Ok, so Micheal Nakazawa and Peter Avalon (for now) are comedy guys. Jimmy Havoc looks undersized, but unathletic, nah, he can work, as showed by the last 6-men match. (and I don't even care for the guy) He could be thrown in comedy garbage guy on occasion. I guess you could consider Sonny Kiss a comedy worker, or a US Exotico. Stunt is undersized. That's his whole appeal. He's not unathletic by any stretch of the imagination. That's exactly 4 people. Add in the women. Yeah, what an awful roster of misfits that have nothing to do in pro-wrestling....

Yeah, it's hilariously bad on every level ! And these people fantazise of having an Emmy Award ?

Not-Bischoff ain't doing his job right I guess.

Actually, every old-school guy would talk about how pro-wrestling is listening to the audience and react accordingly. I've heard it countless times from guys like Funk, Cornette etc… As far as leading them, well, modern pro-wrestler do that very well. They simply don't lead them to the same places as the older guys did, I guess. Or maybe they do. That woman crying her eyes out last year at the G1 when Naito got fucked out of the final by losing to ZSJ, well, she got led.

… people who don't share the same tastes as you ? "Bad" fans ? Come on now. Old-school pro-wrestling has been built on "listening to the audience". That's reaction, as you very rightly said earlier on. So, you should listen to the audience unless they like tight slapping and movez too much ? There are the "good" fans and the "bad" fans ? You're back straight into bias here.

Understood. But why should they ? And you did say that "they jettison a lot of heat/emotion they could have garnered", so that is a judgement, and a negative one. For instance, honestly, I think Bucks vs Cody & Dustin would have got a much better reaction at Fight for the Fallen is they had worked a more Bucks style match, especially at that point of the card after Omega vs Cima. The lack of heat (not that one) could be attributed partly to the fact they tried to work a more sold-school, deliberate style for a while.

About norms, there's also this : norms change. Norm evolve. What used to be the norm isn't anymore. I thought about something recently. Like mostly every older fan I guess, I was annoyed by tight slapping. Those damn tight slaps noise in LU ! Every shot you hear that noise. Then I thought about when I was a young teenager, I was raised on guys stomping their feet while punching. Or kicking. Or headbutting. And I was annoyed by wrestlers who would not do it, to me it looked bad, because you did not have the stomping noise. When I would play pro-wrestler, I would of course stomp when throwing a punch. Now think about that for a second... What is faker ? The noise of feet stomping on the mat when punching, or the noise of flesh (hand) slapping flesh (tight) ? Actually, the tight slapping is a much better, organic noise effect most of the time. Plus, I found it super cool when Owen Hart used to do it when he did his enzuigiri. At this point, I'm not annoyed anymore. Yeah, it's goofy, especially a bunch of different spots sound the same. But it's not more goofy than stomping your feet when you punch, or stomping your feet when you kick someone, which seemed perfectly acceptable to me for the longest time. As of now, I think it's safe to say that tight slapping is the norm in pro-wrestling for a bunch of moves (enzuigiris, front kicks, elbows, some punching). I'm pretty sure people raised on this find it absolutely the most logical way to work. Ok, enough ranting.

There's something I realized when I watched Ishii's matches in the G1. Sometimes, he does stuff that aren't logical in term of no-selling this or that move for instance, but because of how he does it and when he chooses to do it, it *always* pops the match up to the next level of intensity and mind-fuckery for the audience, and that's why he's brillant.

This is exactly what I talked about when I mentioned bias and expectations. Where is the written rule that says a pro-wrestling tag match should be worked like an 80's southern tag team match ? Why should it be that way ? The answer is simple : there isn't and there's no reason why it should. It's only because of what you project onto the match, your own internalized norm, that you judge modern action packed match as lacking something. Someone born and raised with the Lucha Brothers may think different. A japanese guy raised on 80's NJ will think otherwise. A mexican guy raised on CMLL will think otherwise. They only lack something because of what you project in it, your own internalized bias and norm.

Yeah, I noticed JR seemed already salty about stuff regarding to AEW and the new generation of workers/fans... I thought the last few shows were ok, but nothing must-hear at all.

I don't think you can have execution for the sake of execution. Whatever you do, you either execute it well or not. Pro-wrestler only do moves, because they are using their bodies. Yes, occasionally they scream at the ref, the crowd or the audience, but apart from that, they move. That's the only thing they do. Pro-wrestling is movez, basically. Now, you either do these moves, from running the ropes to throwing a punch to convulsing on the mat in a fashion that is accepted as looking good in the context of what pro-wrestling is (and that is, with regard to the different cultures, a modern lucha guy won't bump the same way as a joshi puroresu girl from the 80's) or looking bad. The issue is, what kind of logic do you apply ? I think a lot of time, what we call "logic" is actually "personal expectations" based on our own biases of what a pro-wrestling match should be. One thing I was thinking about. Like I said, I really have no idea about Rollins work one way or another. But there's something that I see all the time : "Oh, he does that falcon arrow from the top and it doesn't mean anything." Ok. Understood. The question is : what does the falcon arrow from the top should mean ? Why should it be a finisher (if that's the issue) ? On what are we basing this criticism exactly ? I don't think anyone could actually give me an answer that is not based on a preconcieved notion of "damn, a falcon arrow from the top rope !!!!". And as an old Hayabusa fan, I totally understand the feeling ! Still, it's 2019. Ten years ago, the Canadian Destroyer was a death spot. And it was considered either super cool or goofy as shit. Now it's just a spot. An impressive spot, especially when done right, but it's just a spot. However, Okada, arguably the greatest wrestler of these last ten years (stay with me even if you disagree) wins all his matches with a short clothesline. It's an accepted fact. Sure, some bitch about his "lame offense, especially for Japan" (which is even funnier considering Okada's status in Japan), but mostly, the Rainmaker is an accepted finisher, while a falcon arrow from the top rope isn't. Until someone makes it and it will be. So again, where's the logic here ? I'm not sure "logic" has anything to do with pro-wrestling, really. I mean, if we go "logic", Ric Flair was a terrible, terrible worker because the story he always told (more or less) was that he was the dumbest motherfucker ever. So, I'm not sure "logic" is always the way to go, or at least not in the physical acceptation of the term. There's nothing logic about the physics of pro-wrestling. Like I said, I've seen plenty matches that "made sense" that were okayish to good, whereas I've seen some crazy-ass spotfests where logic (in term of what a body can do/endure) was thrown away that I would call great matches without blinking.

You could have said I agree with you on this more often that not on more than half the situations. Seriously, what is "the internet" ? We're in 2019. "Internet fans" may have meant something twenty years ago. I was talking about how WWE cancelled the PPV on the French station that carried it for 20 years the other day. I checked a bit on forums to see the reactions. The people there, who are not "casual" WWE fans but clearly compose the hardcore French WWE fandom audience, would absolutely not care about "workrate" or "execution". They are the hardcore WWE fans. They are a community on the Internet. So again, when people are talking about "internet fans" or "smart fans" or even "smart marks" in 2019, it doesn't even mean anything anymore. It's like "movez", and "workrate" or "indy darling". Terms are used as shortcuts. And I disagree about the idea that workrate/execution is what is most valued in general, because what has always been most valued in term of the canon that has been established by the niche of the niche was always, above workrate and execution although it was certainly present too, psychology. When people talked about Kawada vs Misawa, above everything, the psychology of the matches (rightfully or wrongfully), where what was put over above and beyond workrate and execution. Okada vs Omega, same thing. But mostly every consensus great worker has the workrate/execution label anyway. Ric Flair, who had a terrific workrate (he was a total go-go-go style worker, just like Angle later) and execution, was also put over for his great (???) psychology. Jerry Lawler, that great storyteller of all time (???) certainly was not an immobile dolt and his matches were never borefest, and he had the *greatest punches ever* (execution, right there). Yoshiaki Fujiwara, the second biggest figure of the DVDVR "new" canon, was workraty as shit in term of shoot-style, and his execution was always incredible. So yeah, find me a boring-ass guy who didn't do shit, whose stuff looked like crap but had matches that "made sense" who ended up very high on our latest GOAT project. I don't think you'll find one. To me it makes perfect sense.

Yeah, that too.

I believe it comes from their old logo from the TNA days, which was written that way ! Never noticed the current logo was plain IMPACT. Funny that.

Sucks for AXS. Very cool for Tenille Dashwood. I guess they still throw some money around, because I would have thought she would reappear in AEW. This is making the women division even more interesting. iMPACT still is my favourite little promotion. They really know how to do things right with what they have. Involving Melissa Santos in Cage/Elgin is the best thing they could have done, considering how good she was with the Fenix angle in LU. Rhino, well, like I said I really don't care and wasn't a fan of his years in iMPACT (liked him in ECW), but I admit there's something pretty cool about iMPACT being the home for old ECW alumnis from time to time. No signs of Killer Kross though, I wonder if he's still in their plans.

This is way overstated. This is acting like there was no criticism of spot-workers previous to the 00's, the DVDVR sets and the post-Benoit workrate guilt (yes, it happened). There was plenty of criticism of spotfests for the sake of spotfests already. Hell, guys like Eddie Carpentier and Antonino Rocca were probably considered like spot-monkeys in their days. The thing is, back then (the 80's and 90's I mean, since this is were our conversation is focusing about "smart fans"), wrestling was also marred by a shitload of guys who would do nothing or do spots but really, really poorly. But that never made anyone who would tons of cool shit a great worker, even back then. No one ever confused the Eliminators with the MX, although as crazy spot-artists, they could be fun (with the sloppiness that went with the time too). This isn't the case today though, as pro-wrestlers are much better athletes and especially acrobats than they ever were before. So of course it gets even harder to simply discredit someone who's doing incredible stuff as a simple spot-monkey, because let's say 90% of pro-wrestlers today that aren't great and some not even good are just that, spot monkeys. Very seldom you'd see a guy who just suck at doing anything or spend his time lying down or lumbering around. Basically, most pro-wrestlers today do a lot of "movez" and have a high workrate anyway. Hell, Cody vs Dustin was a total high workrate match, really. At the same time, by sheer pendulum effect, some guys who aren't doing much, or are doing less, or whose execution is not that great, are de facto overrated simply because of the fallacious "lol movez" arguments. I'm not gonna name names here, but how many time have I heard about this guy or that guys being "great at his role" when in fact he was a mediocre goof who simply had a decent gimmick or decent charisma or was doing some easy but efficient stuff. Doing less doesn't automatically means you're great (see : Corbin, Baron). Doing more doesn't mean you're not great (see : Omega, Kenny). Seth Rollins seems to be in the old "spot monkey" category, and it's not helped by the fact he never had any discernable character ever. He's Blitzkrieg. He's doing cool moves and some people love him for that, despite the fact 99% of pro-wrestlers today do cool moves, but he's also pushed at the top of the N#1 company in the world, which helps the perception a whole lot. Remember Blitzkrieg ? He was a total spot-monkey who was on fire for a few months on Nitro and Thunder in the cruiserweight division in 1999. And some of us panned him back them for being a "lol movez" guy too (we didn't use that term, of course), whereas Rey Mysterio, who was doing even more moves and executed them better, was rightly seen as a great worker, because he had a lot more than a repertoire of moves. I think the "spot worker" designation should come back. Anyway, I'm just ranting.

Stop doing AEW's PR ! Hope AEW is paying you well ! Wait, we're not on Twitter, sorry about that.

Ok. I wonder if Savio is part of either Konnan's of Salina's upcoming revelations about each others. Like I said before, give us Savio vs LA Park.

I guess it couldn't last. This week's show had a terrible main event again, which featured Contra vs Von Erichs. Sorry, but none of this works. First, the Von Erich boys aren't very good. And if they don't have the Von Erich name, they basically are two generic guys doing weak brawling and semi-athletic spots. I mean, the LA Dojo Young Lions on the current G1 tours look ten times better than these guys. Second, Contra are still lame as fuck, they look like two jobbers and their work sucks. Speaking of which, it's amazing how Gotch has deteriorated. His kicks made Miz look like KENTA, his body looks like jello, he looks like he couldn't possibly give a fuck. The post-match angle fake chaos with the riot squad was ridiculous. This is lame. And since they are building toward a WarGames match with all these people, it doesn't look good for the upcoming months. Rest of the show had some fun stuff though, mostly because, well, Salina. Mance Warner vs Bestia 666 was a decent garbage brawl (although again, I don't ever want to hear about Corny bashing AEW for its sideshow gimmicks as long as he's putting over Mance Warner, who's just exactly that), highlighted by Salina using a Louboutin bag to pass on some powder to Bestia. How precious is that ? Also, her little interaction with Low-Ki showed how good of a performer she's became. Match against el Sicario was nothing, but I guess we'll get to see what's in her smartphone now, since Konnan had stolen it (booking is kinda lazy on that one, Salina should just go to the police and get her phone back !). Hammerstone dating Georgia Smith is right out of RAW 1996. Oh, Corny.... Is Aries gone already ? Is Savio Vega gonna show up eventually ? This company is a hot mess.

Wow. I'm following from afar... They don't even try to book any personal issues anymore. When in doubt : gauntlet.

I think KENTA is actually on the upturn again, for a last stint that will live up to his name. Let's be real, he came into the G1 with some of the greatest workers in the world (Okada, Tanahashi, Naito, ZSJ, Ishii, Ospreay, Takagi) straight from a long layoff after a mostly catastrophic WWE stint marred by injuries and unlearning what made him great. Considering his age, the state of his body and where he comes from, he's been doing mighty fine. KENTA was a terrific worker in the 00's. Expecting he was gonna be the same worker in 2019 that he was in 2009 is ridiculous, especially considering his last five years. Apart from the Archer match, he's had nothing but excellent/great matches. That's pretty miraculous, actually.

Ah ah, awesome ! That's a babyface promo too.