El-P

I guess late 90's when they wouldn't give Kawada the ultimate nod, yes, but I'm really not the right guy for this. Where's JDW when we need him ?

About looks, I just made a specific topic because it can be an interesting (and fun) topic on its own : http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/41878-the-pro-wrestling-curve-of-attractiveness/ (so to not clog the weekly thread too)

So. There. I mean, Ric Flair ? Really ? Have at it.

She's probably much prettier IRL actually. Well, I'd say she's hot, as opposed to pretty, and again, I do think this comes from the fact she's playing the petite bitch heel role to a T and sexiness is part of the whole act. So, maybe she isn't actually that pretty, I have no idea, but she comes off that way thanks to her character her performance (as opposed to, yes, Torrie Wilson who's been mentionned earlier, whose body always looked smoking hot but also came off completely devoid of any character). I'd draw a parallel to Angelina Love, as I'm deep in TNA 2008 right now, whose actually not *that* pretty by "common" standards, but her characterization makes her attractiveness go way up (no pun intended). A lot of it is relative (and cultural too) and the way you present yourself (and not just physically) goes a long way. BTW, I'm going way off topic but... was Ric Flair a *good looking guy* ? I mean, Arn & Tully were ugly mofos, that's a given.

I think there's a misconception about AJ 90's "slow-burn" booking that comes from the fact people are binge watching that stuff now decades after the fact, which of course wasn't meant to be and gives a skewed perspective on the perception of it. The fact is that slow-burn booking was doing great business for a long time. That was Baba's magic touch.

Very obviously. I mean, his take on workers is that Shawn & Ric are the greatest wrestler ever and every other quality worker is "one of the most underrated wrestler ever". I also find the whole "I own that belt/robe" pretty offputting to be honest. Ok, you own stuff. You gives a fuck ? The issue with the Schiavone podcast is now that Conrad got Bischoff, he's got no point even trying to get any knowledge out of Tony. I really enjoyed Tony's crass sense of humour when it was happening organically in the middle of giving overviews on WCW. Comedy watch-along where half of the show is basically not addressing the issue, I have no time for. I'll probably wait until there's a show I'm really intrigued about to get back to it.

Agreed. Thirded. (although the trend is on most big matches going way longer than they really should, self-conscious epic syndrome)

First of all : ah, yeah, the good old days of DVDVR when every "odd" choice was obviously much better than the "canon" great workers. Fun times. Well, not really, it was laughable indeed and snobbish as hell. The 00's... Anyway, this is a great match and this is indeed the Kobashi show. Not in the way Kobashi carries a mediocre worker by doing his shit. Not at all. Honda brings plenty to the table. But Kobashi makes everything Honda brings to the table and makes it mean more with his selling, with the way he builds the match toward himself getting vulnerable against a guy who, on paper, has exactly zero chance of winning. Honda has the performance of his life there too, but it's Kobashi's selling and way of working transitions (again, something that has been totally overlooked with times, the cliché of Kobashi being reduced to "headropping galore and siff shots") that make the most out of everything Honda brings. Slowly but surely, it ends up with legit nearfalls and drama, through a way full of neat stuff (Honda's amateur offense bring a whole different aspect and they really work wonders around this element). You gotta applaud Misawa's booking too in the early days of NOAH to condition the fans that really anything was possible (Jun making himself and Kobashi tap out or Ogawa winning the title) which probably helped too. But come on, Chono was right there waiting in line, Honda had no chance in hell of winning. And yet, you believe he does. great performance by Kobashi and yes, great performance by Honda, who's a quite interesting worker (if Brock Lesnar could take notes…). Terrific first title defense. Borderline MOTYC level.

Well, there is that too. Anyone knows where this guy came from BTW ? I know he had a podcast with Flair or something, but his whole "I'm just a wrestling fan" gimmick is quite tiresome when you figure he's super connected to the point of actually marrying one of Flair's daughter now (if I get everything right). I know he's in the mortgage business (which is pretty fucking low in the totem pole of acceptable human activity to me tbh (no offense to anyone on the board who would be involved in that too )), but how did he get involved in pro-wrestling podcasting anyway ?

Well, Hollywood ain't the real world either. But yeah, honestly, Randy Orton, with all the shitty tattoos, kinda looks likes some of the douchebags who do Survivor type TV shows. In all honesty, all the girls we're talking about aren't that special looking either. Some are really cute girls (although butchered by the makeup department), but plenty of them are just on the more normaly attractive side of the spectrum, really. Which is a good thing. The days of the lingerie models is over, thankfully. Alexa Bliss looks plays a part, but the fact is she's just really good at being a bitch heel. Personnality also plays a huge part into perception of attractiveness (not to state the obvious, but the same works IRL, I mean, look at Foley's wife for instance).

Somewhere, Kevin Nash feels like an innovator.

It plays a factor, but it's not enough. Who had the hottest body, Sensationnal Sherri or Stacy Keibler ? Yet, who you'd rather watch working the valet part ? And it's the same thing for the guys. Remember in the 80's those blowjob tag teams. I mean, Ricky Morton & Robert Gibs…. wait… ok, that was probably because of the South... But yeah, of course it plays a factor. Why do you think studd looking Randy Orton in short underwears got pushed and got so much reactions for so long ? His fabulous and compelling in-ring work ? His amazing charisma ? His mind-blowing promo ability ? And who can forget this one ? And I must say, although very much straight, I understand the feeling, girl...

I remember exactly the same thing. He was white shoes.

The Apex of the old AJ style. The best passing of the torch match ever. Misawa's eye for little details is just amazing. Forget the headropping (which is overstated to a point, some of those huge suplexes look actually quite safe in that the body is doing a full twist without the head being compressed at all, or the bump clearly being took on the shoulders before folding the neck), what made the style was the selling of those huge spots (which of course, is a thing that has been completely lost by the indies just cosplaying the big spots), the sense of escalation, the incredible dynamic those guys established over the years (the argument of "they always worked against the same opponents" is really poorly thought out to me, it's like criticizing Sonic Youth for never switching band members and playing funk or something). Kobashi is awesome, but I thought this match really was about Misawa looking like the greatest pro-wrestler ever one last time. All time classic. MOTD. *****

Really enjoying the latest posts on the issue. Tons of very interesting stuff, right on the point too.

No. WWE was way behind the times. And really, I went through the whole Gail vs Kong series from 2008 recently, I haven't seen one WWE women match in the last year that was even close to those matches (and I've been a big fan of the women's division). More money ? Money don't buy you happiness. I think Gail has made quite a good life for herself, plus she retired on her own terms. She really doesn't need the WWE stamp of approval. I respect anyone who says "fuck off" to that company, especially in the current context of monopoly (let's be honest, TNA was a glorified indy in the last few years).

Recognition on the part of whom though ? WWE ? How does it matter anyway ? It's all bullshit make-believe. If pro-wrestling fans are too lazy to just accept WWE revisionnist history, that's their issue. It doesn't take much effort to dig up the facts, which is that TNA was putting serious women's division ten years before anything happened in the WWE (and then they reverted back, because, you know, Russo and shit). The recognition shouldn't have to come from the corporate assholes of the WWE but from the historians and fans. Fact : Gail Kim was a terrific worker. She made a career choice that obviously made her happier, I say good for her. She doesn't need the approval of the fake-ass mother hen.

On the other hand, the latest WCW watch-alongs really haven't been that much fun. They are way too long considering they spend about 50% of the time actually doing "watch-along", the gimmick has jumped the shark to me. So, unless you really want to rewatch some of these shows, it's just too much time spent for not enough fun facts and insights to me. The format really works well with terrible shows or as novelties like with Barely Legal.

Agreed. There's a huge difference of scale between naming a battle Royal after Moolah or (worse) paying tribute to Jimmy Snuka and taking a huge amount of money and deliver an actual propaganga show for an awful regime (that has largely been responsible for the ideology behind current international terrorism). I said it before, in a way I felt like it was 1936 and I was watching the Berlin Olympics… "Beautiful Jedda, progressive city, such an honor to be there…" (vomit) So, no, I won't be batting an eye at Raw, I won't watch Backlash, I'll probably miss Johnny Gargano next MOTYC. It's not even a matter of doing a grandstand moral demonstration. I'm not even an active customer of the company (haven't been in decades now). It's just that I feel rather disgusted by this showcase and there's already too much pro-wrestling out there if I want to binge watch I can have orgies of whatever I want without having to even touch current WWE (which in essence, I don't care for anyway, I like the regular really god matches, but the product is otherwise terrible). I recently got back into watching 00's NOAH. Some really great stuff. NOAH was a cool company. Which was in bed with yakuzas really but… I mean… Not that bad... Ok fuck this world already.

Ok, le's play WMIII attendance game with this picture. Ok, I can see no homosexual in this picture already. Now, on with the single women. That's zero too. Damn, this game is much easier than WM III already...

It's crazy how over the years Kurt Angle has been pidgeonholed into the "my turn-your turn - no selling - movez" cliché worker. Someone hearing about this definition of Kurt and going through his big TNA matches of 2008 would be puzzled. Honestly, this style maybe was true in the WWE, but watching Angle in TNA has been a huge eye-opener to me. I have no problem putting him in the "all-time great workers" at this point. Anyway, this match is awesome, maybe AJ Styles best performance since the 2005 triple way feud against Joe & Daniels. He delivers a terrific pissed off babyface performance here, while Angle is off-the-chart great has a heel, stalling at first, smirking and showing off after he does really huge spots, gripping simple holds and working them like it's the 80's (he does work from a headlock for a while and really puts intent into it), begging when he has to at the beginning, feeding the comebacks. He does so many little things right in term of facial expression and positioning in the ring (going for the ropes to help himself getting up instead of just stand up, stuff like that). Plus they don't abuse the gimmick, instead of simply going for illogical falls early (like it's often done), they wait until the last third when the selling is getting heavy to really make the actual falls meaningfull. The trading finisher spot comes from two organic transitions, Kurt catching AJ in a powerbomb counter, which then allows him to fuck with AJ a bit by trying the Styles Clash. AJ from there countering his own finisher by going to the ankle lock makes sense both physically and mentally. Long term selling is excellent, they work tons of really impressive spots, everything actually looks like a struggle. They don't go overboard with the finishers either. Damn, that match is great. Post match... well, you can get the Russo fuckery feel a bit, but it's beside the point. This is the second MOTYC for Angle in 2008, in a totally different style than the infamous cage match with Joe. Maybe best Styles match ever in term of putting everything together (and by that I mean purpose and character) and really better than anything he has done in WWE or NJ to me. Great pro-wrestling, this.

The Canadian Werewolf forgot one essential point at #6 : pointing out that he's got odd views. Look at me, I'm so special.

The "Our women" choice of wording is both pretty awkward and funny at the same time. "OUR women have rights !"

So, the third occurence of the infamous "Fire Russo" chant happened at Hard Justice 2008 during the Sonjay Dutt vs Jay Lethal "Tuxedo chain match" (yeah, I'm sure Dutch Mantell booked that shit, it doesn't scream Russo idiotic gimmick match at all...), part of the equally awful Macho Man & Liz redux storyline, which was easily one of the worst of the year (if not the worst, but Abyss being back only foreshadows some awful things to come, as he's always been settled with the worst shit since Russo came back). Still, by August, 2008 has clearly been the best year of TNA since 2005, all things considered, the women playing quite an important role in that (but again, the prospect of losing Gail Kim soon means things are gonna take a downturn).

They should definitely apologize for letting air that song.