El-P

Nice to see you're still acting like a dickhead after all these years Schneider. Don't grow up, stay the same, it's perfectly fine with me. For all I care... To Dylan : yes, I haven't seen his SMW days, that's why I mentionned it to make it perfectly clear I'm basing my opinion of Jack's most famous ECW years. Yet, we're still talking about New Jack people. *New Jack*. If we have reached the point where we can say "Hey, he's dissing New Jack, he's a snobish fucker with dated opinions" when one has a hard time even considering the eventuality that New Jack may be a better worker that HHH, keep me posted. Hopefully New Jack will be the great find of the SMW set. Gotta have one I guess.

Any mid-carder that was semi-famous during the late 90's seems like an icon to the current generation I guess. The pictures says everything about what's wrong with today's wrestling. They sure are gangbanging.

Punching an offensive and useless racist gargoyle should be commended if anything...

Can you let us know which claims you think are outrageous? Saying New Jack being easily better than about anyone is outrageous to me, although I haven't seen any of his SMW work. Still, New Jack in ECW was crap, pure and simple. FF material every time. I didn't even think he was a particulary good promo there (and really, I have a hard time enjoying any promo when I know the match will be pure shit). That would be it as far as "outrageous" goes. Yeah, I really don't care for Triple H after 1997...

Not everyone wants to make a thesis nor react on every points made here, yet can still show appreciation for the thread despite some disagrements. I think this is a very good and fun thread to read, that's all. Levy is the polar opposite of Hunter though, in that he doesn't think he's a great worker to begin with (and says himself he's a shitty athlete) and he's all about intricate long-term booking, crazy characters and entertaining clusterfucks as opposed to cosplaying Ric Flair/Harley Race in overlong putrid parodies of so-called "classic main events". I do think the "Hunter is a student of the game" is also way overblown and part of his gimmick. If he's a "student of a game", he sure didn't make any grade as far as working.

Holy shit. That's pretty sad. Any specifics on this ?

Pretty funny thread. Some claims are totally outrageous (and I'm a HHH hater), but some really good points are made too. Also, I'm sick of the Raven bashing at this point, which is getting pretty ridiculous and totally overblown. I can't even fathom the idea of having to go through the entire last decade of WWE TV with HHH on top. A nightmare of dullness on every front.

First breaking point : Royal Rumble 1999. Second breaking point : joshi puroresu going down the crapper in the early 2000's, Lioness Asuka fucking up ARSION pretty good. Third breaking point : Misawa's death.

Whoops Rex King not dead Well, this is a good news then. Wonder how this got around to the point Meltzer reported it. It's not like another guy named Rex King has died I guess (cf Mike Kirchner false death announcement a few years ago).

Luger connected big time in WCW. He was fucked by booking in 1990 when Flair refused to drop the belt to him at WrestleWar despite Luger being hot as hell. Then he got fucked again in 1991 when Flair left with the belt just before he was supposed to out Luger over yet again at GAB. Luger had lost a bit of steam, but was still over. Don't forget that Luger got fucked by booking in WWF also. SummerSlam 93 kinda killed him. His career had this bizarre pattern of him being a choker. Then when he came back in 1995, Luger got super hot really fast, and was one of the most interesting character of the promotion for a few months before turning full fledge face with the nWo angle. Him winning the belt from Hogan on Nitro is still considered one of the biggest moment of the Monday Night War era. Even after doing nothing of note for months in 98, he got a monstruous reaction when he joigned the nWo Wolfpack. Then the Total Package gimmick in 99 made him fun again since he's a much better heel than a face. Luger was *over* with the WCW crowd. I'd argue he was a much better worker than Sting at least from 89 to 91 (well, there's not even an argument, the matches are there).

I ignored Liz and him were married when they hooked up. Bad stuff...

He's mentionning Savage's death, so it's pretty recent.

I don't think Spike does anything *well*. I had to suffer through a Spike vs RVD match on HC TV yesterday, man it was bad. Two shitty workers having a sloppy train wreck of a match. Some impressive spots from RVD, and Spike is willing to fuck himslef up, which is the only credit I give him, but oustide of that, it was painfull. Anyway, it's beating a dead horse, we'll never agree on this. Credible getting a tolerable match out of Chetti (who sucks donkey balls, we agree on that) is pretty impressive to me. The Lance Storm vs Nova match that followed was considerably worse. More athletic, with more "cool spots", but worse. I can't believe I forgot Danny Doring & Roadkill, who were having good matches on every TV show in 2000. I would have loved to see them randomly show up on Thunder in 2001.

If you look at the history : 1988 : Jim Duggan : Rumble was just a special Battle Royal that year Then : 1989 : Big John Studd : failed attempt at revitilizing the career of Studd 1990 : Hogan 1991 : Hogan 1992 : Flair (winner gets WWF championship, the way for Flair to win it without pinning Hogan) Then, the gimmick of Winner goes to WM to face the champ : 1993 : Yoko (not yet a main eventer, but built to become one from the get-go) 1994 : Bret & Luger (one former WWF champ, and Luger who was already a main-eventer destined to get the belt at some point) 1995 : Michaels (elevated him to go to WM to face the champ; yet, after WM he got back at IC title level) 1996 : Michaels (finally elevated him to be a main eventer) 1997 : Austin (kinda already a main-event act, although never officialy main-evented a PPV, so this was the official elevation I guess) 1998 : Austin (the token predictable win to go to WM, the company was already built around him at that point) 1999 : McMahon (Russo era Rumble; swerve; vomit; killed the credibility of the match to me) 2000 : The Rock (already The Man) 2001 : Austin (already The Man) 2002 : Triple H (had to win it after Rocky & Austin damnit) Someone else can do the rest. But the Rumble really never was an event to elevate a new star. When it was the kinda the case, it was usually only the registration that the guy was on his way to win the title at WM, and not an "elevation" per say. Austin in 98, Michaels in 96 were obvious winners and the Rumble felt like a token win on the way (which is also why both were pretty boring).

That's why ECW was cool. It gave an opportunity to guys the big two wouldn't even batch an eye at.

Credible had a stupid name and a stupid gimmick, and was a pretty bad promo in this setting, but he was a solid worker if nothing less, and a fine bumping heel. He should have been repackaged. That less talented guys like Lance Storm and Spike Dudley (yes, in the same sentence) got more out of their post ECW career is a bit of a shame, really. He could have been fine working undercards in WCW for years. Ditto C.W. Anderson, way too good to just vanish. WCW was the right fit for him. Really, the death of WCW is a tragedy for US wrestlers, no matter how much some people want you to remember it only as this god-awful promotion.

DDP was 45 when WCW went under. So it's not like he had tons of mileage left, but he could have been used much better for sure.

I doubt he would have amounted to anything in WCW. Too small, too "indie", too referential. He would have been lost in the shuffle. Maybe Dusty would have pushed for him a bit, but that would only help him so much. Like FLIK said, Corino had a very nice career in Japan and was a lot more successful than any other ECW guys not picked up (or even picked up) by WWF. Corino had quite a successful post ECW career actually. The same can't be said for guys like Justin Credible or C.W. Anderson.

In the "all pro-wrestlers aren't fuck ups" series, the shoot interview with Jim Brunzell is really good. Comes off like a cool guy, tells a lot of good stories. If you believe his Wiki page he's 62, but he really doesn't look a day over 50. It puts things on perspective when you hear that he had to have shoulder replacement, and that he fucked up his left hips too, and that just because of throwing thousands of dropkicks and falling down on the left side. You don't think of crazy highspots when you think of Brunzell, yet it was enough to do serious damage to his body. Does a great Jim Barnett impersonation, but doesn't say "My boy" sadly.

Tajiri is already past 40. Which seems crazy, but he started in his mid 20's.

The issue I have with Tajiri vs Crazy matches in 99/00 is that there are so many that they kinda blends with each others. That said, they actually did a pretty good job reactualizing themselves all things considered. There's a case for Yoshihiro Tajiri being a top 10 wrestler in the world in 1999/2000.

The answer is : everyone who didn't fit in WWE from that point on, for various reasons. Which makes quite a bit. Talented dguys like Axl Rotten, who got trapped into a stupid act in ECW, would never been given a chance. Guys like Douglas or Jarrett could not get back in NY, not that either of them wanted back there anyway. Raven, Corino & Kanyon just didn't fit. All the cruiserweights not named Mysterio got fucked. Awesome was clearly a case of being a japanese guys anyway, and he was not getting younger, with a banged up bodies and no knees.

Yet he has the power to fire the RAW GM, but not to make himself the RAW GM. We need that Konnan quote John. Now.

Wrestling needs to be done with owners, GM and commisioners storylines, like, yesterday. It got old by 2001, really.

As long as he doesn't review asian movies on Korean sites...