El-P

When I got into joshi back in 1998, Yamada was hugely pimped as a great worker until 1995. I don't think she's been overlooked at all. It was when I went through 1992 & 1993 that she appeared overrated to me. Still very good to excellent at that time, but not great.

This is the most fun thread in a long while. I'll throw in some random candidates : Jacques Rougeau Raymond Rougeau Brian Blair EZ Money Shinzei Shinzaki Maxx Payne

Way above Cooga, above Takahashi (I like her), way above KAORU (who's not above KAORU anyway ?), above Combat, and although I'm a big fan, above Bison. Peak vs peak with Toyota, it's arguable who is the better one. Yamada has been way overrated for ever. I love Shimoda but I think Kudo at her peak was better. I haven't watch peaking Toyota for years, but she would be the only one I would argue was better than peak Kudo. Kyoko and Yoshida at their peak were better. She was better than Takako (who I like more than most). Kudo would be high on my list.

Chyna sucked as a worker. She was rotten. Which might also explain why it didn't worked as well as it should have.

High knee ?

Keep in mind I'm not the biggest fan of either of those two.

I think most people here realize that but it's a moot point to me because a woman beating up another woman is not "violence against women", which is an expression that really encompass "men's violence toward women". I understand that some people can feel uneasy with the idea of women beating up each other bloody (in that case), but yeah, it is somewhat of a chauvinistic deal like you say as it goes back to the idea of women as some kind of fragile beings that are not supposed to do stuff like this. I'm sure Chiggy would have some interesting stuff to say about that.

It's even more impressive to see how good she became when you consider who she had to work with at first : Shark Tsuchiya, Miwa Sato, Crusher Maedomari (one of the most worthless worker ever), Tsuppari Mack and Yuki Morimatsu (of Jd' "fame"). Then she got Combat Toyoda and Reibun Amada who were at least pretty good. But when you work with and against mostly totally shitty workers day in and day out, it's not easy to progress. Kudo is probably one of the biggest overachiever in wrestling history.

I still never have seen this. It's been pimped to me countless times.

That's absurd. She didn't get into Onita's spot of working deathmatches before 1995 or so. And she was better than he was at his own matches (and I'm a big Onita fan). But she never had much to work against (mostly Shark and her croonies). When she had quality opponents like Kandori, Oz or Combat, she simply delivered some of the best deathmatches ever. As far as 93 goes, she looked as good if not better than lot of Zenjo girls during the interpromotionnal shows, and was certainly already better than the overrated Toyota & Yamada in 1993. Aja vs Kudo is a great fucking match. Kudo was working a more deliberate, stiffer pace, with more long term selling than most AJW girls. Combat Toyoda was never close to Kudo, and certainly not during the early days of FMW. She was a good power worker, but let's face it, she also looked good early on because she had Kudo bumping and selling for her. Both improved together, but as much as I like Combat, I wouldn't put her in the same category as Kudo. Kudo was an excellent worker from 1993 to the time she retired, with a peak in 1996 as a great worker. I second all your recommandations though. Great stuff all around.

What do you defies as a chick flick anyway ? A movie directed by a woman who deals with feminine issues ? Is joshi the "chick flick" version of male wrestling ? Sorry, but none of this makes any sense to me. Twilight movies suck. And no, it's not the same thing at all. It's dissmissing an entire genre basing your reasonning on gender. It's like I said : I don't want to hear female singers because I don't like the way female sings. Which doesn't make a lick of sense. Toyota vs Kyoko doesn't look like an Oz vs Kansai brawl, which doens't look like a LCO workrate bloodbath, which doesn't look like a Yoshida vs Fukawa matwork clinic, which really doesn't look like Chiggy vs Dump, which barely looks like Bull Nakano vs Monster Ripper. There are tons of different styles in joshi. Technical, shoot-styly, go-go-go, storytelling, brawling, stiffness oriented. So, dismissing everything just doesn't work.

El Dandy is a guy that was pimped pretty hard back during the GOAT poll by the few lucha hardcores, and the big matches that had been posted convinced me he was a great worker in his prime and I actually included him in my list because of it. Fun times.

As a guy who spent countless hours talking about joshi from 1999 to about 2002 on various forums including several specifically dedicated to the style (and with a numbers of people), it's a bit sad to see that in 2012, things have reverted to the point of having to argue and demonstrate that joshi isn't all Toyota/go-go-go/screaming.

Is that the one where Aja beats the shit out of Hotta's hand and brutalizes her ? Is so, yes, amazing match.

Trying to see how they compare as workers. Jeez. They are three pro-wrestler doing pro-wrestling. In the modern era no less. Because gender doesn't matter one bit. They are pro-wrestlers, they are judge by the same exact criteria. It's fucking simple. No. The above statement is nonsense. And Aja is probably better than Flair too. They don't "face" each other. They *work* with each other. Because it's a convention of a spectacle that portrays itself as a sport. But it's not a sport. It's a craftmanship. Therefore, it's like playing guitar or directing a movie or doing stand ups routines. Being a man or a woman doesn't matter. It's the same thing. Which is why you can work mixed gender match and be perfectly fine.

The fact that he is a complete idiot in denial has a lot to do why the Youshoot interview will be worthless too. Of course, the seminar is akin to Flair's financial placement counseling company.

In 2000 ARSION & Battlarts ran the P*Mix tournament, which was about mixed matches, and with the exception of your token pervert comedy spot by one guy (hey, it's wrestling, and it's Japan, what do you expect ?), it was pretty straight on and serious, and the girls and the guys worked spots together like it was nothing different. ARSION ran a few of these matches with the Apache sisters too, including working with their father, and it was good and refreshing. No bullshit.

It's a convention. Wrestling is a performance disguised as a sporting event. But in reality, if Vince McMahon wanted to put the World Title belt on Chyna or even Sable, of course he could have done it. Wrestling isn't a sport. Easy, we look at both workers merits in comparative skills that are : work, moveset, execution, psychology, selling, number of great matches, promo skills if you want, and that's it. How is that hard to do ? It's easy. It's really easy to see that Akira Hokuto is a much better worker than John Cena, that Aja Kong trumps Ted Dibiase, and that Bret Hart squashes Yumiko Hotta. It's easy as hell. They all do the same thing, with only a few stylistic differences. It's like comparing Jane Campion and Ingmar Bergman. It's easy. They both are movie directors.

I don't know, it doesn't struck me that way. Still, it doesn't keep me from comparing male and female actors from an even point of view. It bothers me more in music though. I find it insanely stupid to always compare women with women only. When you think for a minute or two about it, things are still very concescending towards women in general.

Why ? Because you don't like Julia Roberts or because you don't like women acting ? I mean, sorry but it doesn't make a lick of sense. Do I want to listen to Justin Bieber ? Fuck no. Does that has anything to do with "male singing" ? Fuck no. None of this is related to gender. Wait, does that mean you wouldn't watch a movie with mostly women acting ? Yeah. You can choose. Just like I've choosen long ago to not watch lucha because I don't get into it. But it's a matter of style, not gender. Yet, wrestling isn't a sport, it's a performance.

Oups.

FWIW, I enjoyed american wrestling more once I got "fluent" in English enough to understand the promos without having to rely on subtitles or translations.

Of course. But you always have to take in account that the settings and cultures are different, and although sometimes it's obvious that X wrestler has shitload of charisma (Choshu, Hash, Muto, Chiggy, Onita, Kobashi, Toyota, Hokuto, Aja), we must not forget that our natural inclination is to look out for the things we are the most familiar with. Some aspect of puroresu I'm sure appeals to japanese people in ways we don't exactly understand sometime. Same thing for lucha (which in ways is even more alien than puroresu if you except the shoot-style subgenre). That's all what I meant.

Judging Japanese guys by american standarts would make no sense at all. Besides, tons of japanese guys have great charisma and probably great promo skills. I mean, I don't understand what Onita says, but it translates nonetheless. Ditto Aja Kong or Akira Hokuto.

Wrestling is not a competition. Saying there's no gender equality in wrestling is like saying there's no gender equality in acting, singing or dancing etc... It makes no sense.