El-P

Lady Gaga.

We sure hope so. I'll throw out one last name : Johnny Ace.

He's about right on the money, sadly. You should have asked about what he thinks of Ric Flair blading on TV at 60, selling his Hof watch, owing money to Highspots and being complete embarrasment in general.

I don't think it was the point. Wrestling was fake since Vince said it was years before, that point was way behind already. They were getting shit on at the time because WWF programms were becoming really vulgar and such, and their response was "hey, it's only entertainment you snobs".

The whole talk about "getting it" or not reminds me the über obnoxious "Get it ?" campaign in 1999. Yeah, people points to their crotch and say "suck it", there was really something to get there. And yeah, what did Mister T. ever did except the A-Team and being in that Rocky movie with Hogan... Ah, wrestling people and their insecurity...

To me it was the nadir of wrestling TV (of course I hadn't seen WCW Russo yet). Complete shit. No good wrestling on TV, a feud that already had overstayed its welcome by a good 6 months (really, the godawful stuff with Taker and Kane during the Fall followed by the terrible russoific Survivor Series). Drove me off completely. I couldn't stand the Rock back then, and Foley maiming himself with a hundred chair shots only to get a shit finish. Then you got soap opera crap like Taker kidnapping Stephy, the Higher Power angle (It was me, it was me all along), the shittiest WM ever (swerves galore). Then Owen's death totally depressed me. I quit after SummerSlam. In retrospect, it was too bad since Russo left a few months later, and the following year and a half was back at being really fun with some actual good wrestling thanks to the afflux from WCW, Rock coming into his own, Austin's return... Another reason why I hate Russo. Drove me away just before it got really good and fun again for a while. I wish I had quit after SummerSlam 98 (the apex of the MNW years for WWF to me) and came back with SummerSlam 99 (Jericho debuting). The 12 months between the two cards are just a black hole of suckiness.

It's hard for me to say on that one, because by the time I started watching Vince had already been wrestling. But I never minded him in the ring. He was a big guy with big muscles, and a natural charismatic performer whose matches were well-booked, and anyway he usually spent most of the time getting his ass kicked. Whenever he managed to beat anyone, it was typically portrayed as a total fluke or massive screwjob. Some people will still complain "but he's not a wrestler!", to which I reply: says who? He's obviously done his share of training, and has probably had a hundred matches by now. Yet some smarks will oddly cling to the idea that he's less of a real wrestler than some rookie kid in the curtain jerker. Besides, the fact that he's Vince F'n McMahon makes a big difference. He's the father of modern wrestling, period. He's not like Russo or Bischoff, some relatively untalented weenie who snuck in the back door of the business. If he wants to make himself a star, and if it succeeds (which it did, hugely) then I don't see the problem. He was a jacked up 55 year old with zero wresting match under his belt in 1999. Plus the way he won the Rumble made the entire thing a farce. It showed that pretty much you could do anything and it didn't matter because it was a show. And at the time, it pissed me off beyond belief because the Rumble was my favourite gimmick match, and it turned the whole thing into a soap opera. Of course, Russo is ten times worse, but still, there's no way McMahon should have been put into this "wrestler" spot to me. I didn't enjoy McMahon vs Austin at all either. I wanted to see some wrestling, I got bad action movie stuff with bad acting. I loved McMahon as a character in 1998, but as soon as I had to consider him as a wrestler, it was done. Winter of 99 killed my interest in WWF, and it really never recovered. Of course, Bischoff and Russo are a lot worse because they have even less legitimacy, but still. As far as "father of modern wrestling", well, I don't see the point. Should Jim Barnett have put the NWA belt on himself at some point, that would have been ok too ? I know people creams themselves about Vince, but to me, Vince working matches was mostly crap and killed my suspension of disbelief. Let's not mention the Vince vs Shane match, ever.

Exactly, Arquette was a guy who liked wrestling and was caught into a shitstorm of nonsense called WCW Russo. Russo is the only one to blame, and Arquette probably had a lot more respect for pro-wrestling than say, Sable. And really, was Vince McMahon winning the Royal Rumble any better ? I know it's the thing that killed my interest in WWF after 10 years of being a mark.

He probably doesn't know either. His former line of defense was "Oh, I wasn't even the booker when it happened." Which is of course, total bullshit too.

Going through the last stage of ECW HCTV in 2000, I'd be happy if I never watch another RVD match ever. Seriously annoy the hell out of me.

Ditto. I though Shaq was supposed to be part of Mania ?

I never saw the "asshole" chant as a sign of getting hot heel heat. Maybe at first, but after a while, it quickly became a pavlovian reactions to McMahon and affiliates. It's not like Hogan being covered in trash at the beginning of the nWo angle or Michaels getting booed the fuck out in late 97/98.

I guess Warrior is ironically seen as a fun promo today, but really, he was just godawful on the mic. A bunch of pseudo-mystical bullshit that made no sense, nonsensical rambling with grunting noises. Not to mention his WCW comeback, when he delivered probably some of the worst ever. The best Warrior matches do beat tha best HHH matches though, without much doubt. And he was colorful and exciting, at least that's how I perceived him when I was a child. HHH would not have excited me at all at the same age, he looks bland as hell. He can thank Mötörhead, because that's the best thing about his character.

Add me to the guys who kinda liked Mongo in the Horsemen. He was a 39 old rookie with a battered body being put on TV in competitive matches. I thought he looked ok all things considered in tag matches. I enjoyed his deal with Jarrett quite a bit. And I agree he was a better Horsemen than Malenko, for the reasons already mentionned above. Mongo as a color man during the first months of Nitro was godawful though.

When I got into joshi back in 1998, Yamada was hugely pimped as a great worker until 1995. I don't think she's been overlooked at all. It was when I went through 1992 & 1993 that she appeared overrated to me. Still very good to excellent at that time, but not great.

This is the most fun thread in a long while. I'll throw in some random candidates : Jacques Rougeau Raymond Rougeau Brian Blair EZ Money Shinzei Shinzaki Maxx Payne

Way above Cooga, above Takahashi (I like her), way above KAORU (who's not above KAORU anyway ?), above Combat, and although I'm a big fan, above Bison. Peak vs peak with Toyota, it's arguable who is the better one. Yamada has been way overrated for ever. I love Shimoda but I think Kudo at her peak was better. I haven't watch peaking Toyota for years, but she would be the only one I would argue was better than peak Kudo. Kyoko and Yoshida at their peak were better. She was better than Takako (who I like more than most). Kudo would be high on my list.

Chyna sucked as a worker. She was rotten. Which might also explain why it didn't worked as well as it should have.

High knee ?

Keep in mind I'm not the biggest fan of either of those two.

I think most people here realize that but it's a moot point to me because a woman beating up another woman is not "violence against women", which is an expression that really encompass "men's violence toward women". I understand that some people can feel uneasy with the idea of women beating up each other bloody (in that case), but yeah, it is somewhat of a chauvinistic deal like you say as it goes back to the idea of women as some kind of fragile beings that are not supposed to do stuff like this. I'm sure Chiggy would have some interesting stuff to say about that.

It's even more impressive to see how good she became when you consider who she had to work with at first : Shark Tsuchiya, Miwa Sato, Crusher Maedomari (one of the most worthless worker ever), Tsuppari Mack and Yuki Morimatsu (of Jd' "fame"). Then she got Combat Toyoda and Reibun Amada who were at least pretty good. But when you work with and against mostly totally shitty workers day in and day out, it's not easy to progress. Kudo is probably one of the biggest overachiever in wrestling history.

I still never have seen this. It's been pimped to me countless times.

That's absurd. She didn't get into Onita's spot of working deathmatches before 1995 or so. And she was better than he was at his own matches (and I'm a big Onita fan). But she never had much to work against (mostly Shark and her croonies). When she had quality opponents like Kandori, Oz or Combat, she simply delivered some of the best deathmatches ever. As far as 93 goes, she looked as good if not better than lot of Zenjo girls during the interpromotionnal shows, and was certainly already better than the overrated Toyota & Yamada in 1993. Aja vs Kudo is a great fucking match. Kudo was working a more deliberate, stiffer pace, with more long term selling than most AJW girls. Combat Toyoda was never close to Kudo, and certainly not during the early days of FMW. She was a good power worker, but let's face it, she also looked good early on because she had Kudo bumping and selling for her. Both improved together, but as much as I like Combat, I wouldn't put her in the same category as Kudo. Kudo was an excellent worker from 1993 to the time she retired, with a peak in 1996 as a great worker. I second all your recommandations though. Great stuff all around.

What do you defies as a chick flick anyway ? A movie directed by a woman who deals with feminine issues ? Is joshi the "chick flick" version of male wrestling ? Sorry, but none of this makes any sense to me. Twilight movies suck. And no, it's not the same thing at all. It's dissmissing an entire genre basing your reasonning on gender. It's like I said : I don't want to hear female singers because I don't like the way female sings. Which doesn't make a lick of sense. Toyota vs Kyoko doesn't look like an Oz vs Kansai brawl, which doens't look like a LCO workrate bloodbath, which doesn't look like a Yoshida vs Fukawa matwork clinic, which really doesn't look like Chiggy vs Dump, which barely looks like Bull Nakano vs Monster Ripper. There are tons of different styles in joshi. Technical, shoot-styly, go-go-go, storytelling, brawling, stiffness oriented. So, dismissing everything just doesn't work.